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As we know from Mania and Forces, the Phantom Ruby can alter reality and act on it's own accord; considering Sonic Team's heavy creative mandates and them axing the original Mania story setup (Eggman falls into depression after losing the Death Egg for good in Sonic 3, the Hard Boiled Heavies acting in his place and Sonic travelling through familiar locations to discover how they terra-formed over time), it comes across as them forcing the Phantom Ruby from Forces into Mania and throwing out nearly all the original ideas just to shoeshorn a story tie-in... and handwave any of the warping, changes or unexplained incidents as "the phantom ruby did it please stop bothering us".
Are we still talking about S3&K? Since Eggman was no longer around that time when Sonic (& Tails) took care of him, it's only some Eggrobo that's been harassing Knuckles and I guess that robot repaired the machines in order to make them working again.
For Sonic Mania, I don't think playing as Knuckles take places after the events of Sonic Mania.
You can clearly see he was riding on Sonic's Tornado before he fell off to the alternate version of Mirage Saloon Act 1.
When does Sonic Mania Adventures even take place in? After the final boss in Mania Mode? After adventuring in the future "alternate dimension" in Forces?
I don't think it should really matter since Encore Mode doesn't really offer much other than alternate colour palettes with slight level changes and the character switching feature.
Wait, they are rebelling against him?
I'm pretty sure they were ordered to stop Sonic from getting the Phantom Ruby throughout the game and it wasn't until the final boss in Mania Mode when they felt power hungry to keep the Phantom Ruby for themselves.
Also, working together with Sonic?
What? Don't you mean they're working together against Sonic?
No, we should be expecting the same game but with new levels and some minor additions. That's what DLCs are.
Also the DLC is not flopped, you can clearly see it has Very Positive reviews on its Steam Store page.
Not really. Sonic 1 has a simple basic story where Sonic must stop Eggman from transforming more animals into robots.
Sonic 2 is the start of the story arc that involves the Death Egg but there really wasn't much emphasis about that.
While the Death Egg was destroyed at the end of Sonic 2, Eggman has already rebuilt it by the time when Sonic 3 happens but even the game wasn't focusing about that until you reach Launch Base Zone.
There's a clear connection between Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles since these two games were meant to be one game but the size of it is too big for a single cartridge to handle.
I don't understand what you mean because the grammar in this sentence does not make sense.
Don't you mean that due to Mania's 'plot holes', it feels like the game is separated from the other three games in a bad way?
Well it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the game does take place after S3&K because Sonic & Tails were investigating the island to find out why it's back on the ocean again.
That is a connection right there.
Probably because the animators who likes referencing other Sonic games aren't the same people who designs the levels?
Is it really necessary to have a scientific reason why the Phantom Ruby interferes with the Master Emerald?
We don't have any explanation why everyone can run so fast, why Miles have two tails, what's Eggman's motive to take over the world and why some animals are anthropomorphic while others are not.
It's just a cartoony 2D platformer game that focuses more on the gameplay than the story.
It doesn't need a compelling plot to make the game successful, just a simple story about five animal dudes stopping the big bad from taking over the world can do just fine and everyone here seems to be cool with that. Of course, it would be nice for the developers to write an interesting detailed story for the game but they don't seem to have any interest in that and instead just have the game's plot as simple as the first three games.
If some parts of Mania doesn't make sense for you, neither does how some animals can run on two feet while others are still just ordinary animal and simply hops away.
Or how Knuckles teamed up with Knuckles to save the world and escaped Titanic Monarch Zone with the help of Knuckles.
It makes as much sense as how Classic Sonic is apparently not from the past but from an "alternate dimension". I guess Generations never really happened so if they're gonna roll with that, I suppose it's fair that I pretend that Forces never happened in my headcanon and you should too if the plot holes regarding the Phantom Ruby bothers you.
Or because the story is pretty simple that nobody gives a ♥♥♥♥ and doesn't make a big deal out of it.
Story being forced by our throats by cutscenes?
What, the transition cutscenes that explains how Sonic and Co. went from one Zone to another?
Or the introduction cutscene that demonstrates that the Phantom Ruby can teleport us to different locations including the familiar Green Hill Zone and we can see the Hard-Boiled Heavies were the ones who pulled the Ruby out of the ground which indicates that they must be the bad guys because they look like something what Eggman would build.
Also, please have some paragraphs in your thread rather than having it all in one wall of text because it makes it more easier to read.
Hello, I just wanted to briefly prove all the wrong aspects of your response and how you barely understood the main point of was trying to get across with this post. Lets get started!
#1 If you do any research you’ll see that sonic and tails don’t go on angel island because its fallen but because theres a strange energy sorce on the island. No where does it mention that. I assume you made it up on the fly to prove your non existent point.
#2 this is mostly my fault but when I was referring to the knuckles route I was talking about the one in mania. With all due respect I can see why you thought I was referring to sonic 3 and knuckles but in reality I was talking about how in mania the story goes that sonic defeats all the bosses in his campaign and knuckles follows along, yet his pathway is identical to sonic and for some reason he fights the exact same bosses even tho they were just defeated by sonic. The stories intertwine yet feel too similar to warrant the immerse feeling you want when story telling is this prioritized in a video game.
#3 encore mode is sold as a continuation of the story.. since its part of the game it is cannon. Are we just now going to throw encore mode under the bus to make your points more accurate? You didn't even acknowledge my question as to why there aren't any day time transitions in the main campaign... they would have really added more to a already bland story.
#4 This was a typo I clearly meant why are they still working together with eggman after the story of mania in encore mode even tho they became power hungry and rebelled." They had the phantom ruby ultimately giving them great power yet for some unexplained reason they still
went through the exact same bosses and story arcs from the main campaign for no good reason. This was the laziest aspect of the mode the fact that the story was changed so much in angel island and then everything else is exactly the same. Don't you think thats at-least slightly confusing. ffs.
#5 You clearly are blind my friend... the story was a absolute flop for the dlc (and mania mode in general)... a lot of lost potential that could have made sonic mania better then 3 and knuckles. Opportunities for new levels, different bosses, and new routes for characters were thrown into the trash which is why I look so down on this game. Yet you seem inclined to defend it without any proper factual evidence. It feels incomplete... most people can agree on that. The reviews are based on gameplay not the story which is why they are so positive. People are just happy sonic mania is good, they don’t give a crap about the story or consistency
#6 Compared to mania the classic games feel connected. Even if they don’t have cutscenes each game feels like a continuation of the last and due to their simplistic stories. Unlike mania you don’t end up feeling confused because everything is explained. Including why knuckles fights the same bosses in sonic 3 and knuckles, even giving him a incredible ending wrapping everything up and making the whole play-through worth it. Mania lacks this charm due to laziness. Stop denying the fact that the game is lazily done. There are so many story issues and plot holes that don’t make sense it collapses yet you seem inclined too ignore those details because you like sonic. Knuckles fights the same bosses and goes through sonics story only have differences twice. It is never explained why knuckles fights the same bosses or goes through the same routes he just does. He has the same transitions unlike 3 and knuckles where there were different transitions, routes, and areas for knuckles. Knuckles story in 3 and knuckles feels complete because of how different it is and how ambitious and unique it tries to be. Why don’t you sit down and actually evaluate a the game you praise so much instead of acting like arrogant jerk who knows everything.
#7 Do I need to explain myself again.. no where in the story does it mention and sonic and tails going back to the island to find out why its in the water. They do it because they feel a strange power coming from the island but don’t question why its in the ocean to begin with. Your bringing up fan theories rather then actual cannon story plots. It doesn’t take a genius to realize the difference between a fan plot vs actual cannon.
#8 Christian whitehead and his team decide everything that happens in mania. They are the ones who direct the artists on what to draw. If they go out of their way to research mighty and rays running positions in sega sonic and bother to implement them in mania but don’t bother to fix the lazily done story with more plot holes then a shirt eaten by a field of moths don’t you think thats a little odd? Did you seriously think the artists of the game were the ones who researched all the references and decided what should be added in the game? Of course not. Also what does designing levels have to with character designs? lol
#9 Now your just bringing up garbage. No matter what the game is, wether it be a game about a fork with 20 legs or a guy with 40 heads. If it has a story it needs to make sense to the audience. If sonics case its a continuation of sonic 3 and knuckles so people expect the island to be in the sky, and if its not for there to be a reason. You cant use the excuse that because sonic is a hedgehog that runs fast that the story should be riddled with plot holes. Why type of backwards logic is that?
#10 Don’t excuse the laziness of sonic team as a minor nitpick... SEGA tried to hard to intervene both stories and do something unique which ruined both games. They shouldn't get a slap to the wrist they should get a arrow to the face. They referenced generations in forces yet in the same game claimed sonic was from another dimension even tho at the end of generations sonic clearly refers to him as a past version of himself. SEGA deliberately ruined sonics lore and your brushing it off as nothing because you only care about gameplay which is fine.. but these games have stories, and to understand them you need to understand said stories.. so if they are gonna have plot holes in both forces and mania then you might as well not even have sonic games anymore unless you start from scratch and recreate everything so all the sonic games feel connected which SEGA sure as well wont do.
#11 Yes the story is being forced down our throats... the story makes up the entire game and without it you become extremely confused. They are deliberately trying to make us immersed in the lore and game and make everything connected but it lacks due to all the issues on manias part. For christ sake.
Hopefully you'll see the errors you made in your statement. The fact that I corrected basically everything you said implies that you did little research and spoke off nothing more then the classic "gameplay is the only thing that matters" trope but in reality story is just as important especially when it comes to classic sonic games. Probably the most unique and consistent games in the entire franchise. You can not deny sonic 3 and knuckles differentiation, consistency, charm, and originality, warrant it still the best classic sonic game. Mic drop :)
To be fair, the only way you could learn why Tails was following Sonic is by reading the manual.
You want something more complicated like a backstory to the game? There's this Japanese manual that explains that Sonic is now on a different island just for the sake of adventuring while oblivious to the legend that there were once people who lived on the island, where they've achieved their greatness through the use of mysterious, powerful stones.
Eggman learned of this legend and he figured that the mysterious, powerful stones would be the Chaos Emeralds. These Emeralds are exactly what he needs to power up his Death Egg, his greatness, and it's up to Sonic and his new ally, Tails, to grab the Emeralds before him and foil his plan of taking over the world again.
For Sonic 3, the game never explain why Sonic and Tails went to Angel Island but the manual did. After the events of the previous game, the Death Egg has been fallen and just happens to struck Angel Island which pushed it down to the ocean, causing a massive tidal wave when it landed on Earth or Mobius or whatever they call it.
Tails made a new invention that immediately picks up the signal of Chaos Energy which was located somewhere that might something to do with the tidal waves.
Sonic spotted a mysterious ring with ancient language that reminded Sonic of a legend related to Angel Island. The two then went off for another adventure.
There's also the story of Knuckles seeing a strange egg-shaped object on the island and Eggman tricking Knuckles about a certain blue hedgehog wanting the Emeralds for himself or something along the lines.
You think I'm making this ♥♥♥♥ up? Go read the Japanese manuals.
You don't get that kind of exposition in the games without reading the manual so stop pretending that Sonic Mania is the only game that has this 'flaw'. All the games have a backstory written on the manual (usually simplified for the American version) which were never explained in-game.
What makes you think that it's been established that playing as Knuckles takes place after Sonic's campaign of Mania Mode? Just because S3&K did it doesn't mean it would work the same way again in Mania.
As I already said, Knuckles was briefly riding on the Tornado before he fell off to a different version of Mirage Saloon Zone, Act 1. That implies that Knuckle's campaign happens at the same time as Sonic/Tails/Mighty/Ray even though the bosses are the exact same and the playable characters are not fighting together. Why don't I make a big deal out of this? Because storytelling was never prioritised in this game. If it is, the story would've been written more deeply with more cutscenes providing exposition and such and they would've actually try differentiating each character to have their own unique and different campaign than simply having them on the same campaign albeit with slightly different moveset.
You want an example of a platformer that actually has storytelling as one of its top priorities? Check out Freedom Planet. It's a game similiar to Sonic but it clearly shows that storytelling is one of its focused aspects of the game because it contains many story cutscenes with dialogue.
If it's just a rehash of Mania Mode with a different shade of colour and the only new feature it has is a character switching feature then I don't see why it should contribute to the story of Sonic Mania if it's simply repeating the same events of Mania Mode with the only change is the different beginning segment where Sonic came out from the portal and unlocked Mighty and Ray from a capsule.
You really want to know why the Zones in Mania Mode aren't consistent when it comes to the day and night cycle?
It supposed to match what the Zones originally looked like in the first four Sonic games. Sure, it may not be logical when it comes to having the time of day being consistent but then again in Sonic 2, we went from Emerald Hill Zone in the day to Chemical Plant Zone in the dark and then when we went to Aquatic Ruin Zone, it was daytime again but then we went back to nighttime in Casino Night Zone.
For the four brand new Zones? Well it's safe to say that Studiopolis's night is consistent to Chemical Planet taking place at night. Yeah, it's jarring to see how Flying Battery takes place in a clear blue sky but if it makes you feel better, You could say I was wrong that CPZ and SPZ takes place at night and instead the sky just so happens to be very cloudy that covers the sun.
Don't like that? Well I don't know what else would but I don't see why you care so much about what you call an "already brand" story.
Flying Battery to Garden Press makes sense.
Hydrocity transition to Mirage Saloon is still strange but since Sonic and Tails are riding on the Tornado, I guess we could say that it took them time to find the Tornado unless Hydrocity Zone's exit conveniently takes you to the beach of Angel Island where the Tornado would've been parked.
I'm sure it's clear that Titanic Monarch Zone is close to Metallic Madness Zone.
You have a point there which is why I feel that Encore Mode shouldn't contribute to the story if it's literally a rehash of Mania Mode but with different colours and slight changes in level design.
If they're considering that canon then I like to disagree on that.
Don't get me wrong, I do feel that Encore Mode is "meh" and if that's what you meant by the DLC is a flop then I can agree with you there.
If you think the story is a flop overall, that's fine but that's not their main focus. It's just another simple story of Eggman doing something bad that Sonic and his friends has to stop. Just like the first four games.
Sonic 1's story is simply Sonic stopping Eggman from transforming animals to robots.
Sonic CD is about Sonic preventing the dystopian future that took over Little Planet which was caused by Eggman.
Sonic 2 still has Eggman wanting to take over the world like in first game but this time, it takes place on a different island and Sonic has a follower that can reach his speed who eventually became his best friend.
Sonic 3 has gotten a bit more interesting with Eggman tricking Knuckles to mess with Sonic while he continues his plan to take over the world. Also, Eggman has his Death Egg rebuilt that Sonic needs to destroy again in order to stop him ruling or destroying the world.
After that, Knuckles needs to take care of that one smart Eggrobo who is taking Eggman's place.
What I'm trying to say is that the DLC is not a commercial failure and the positive reviews for that DLC are likely talking about the two returning characters, the four player mode and the price being reasonably cheap for how small the DLC is.
Of course they don't talk much about the story or the inconsistencies of the game because Sonic Mania isn't known for its story writing. Most people don't really think too much about the plot of the game because it's not the main focus of the game, it's there to complement the game.
Now you're talking about the gameplay aspect of the game where you feel that Knuckle's campaign is lacking compared to S3&K when I was only discussing about why Knuckles is fighting the same enemies storywise because it's been implied that Knuckles' story happens parallel to Sonic's story. Now here you are evaluating the gameplay and calling me an arrogant jerk when I wasn't even talking about Knuckles' playthrough in terms of gameplay and comparison to other games.
I was only answering your question why you think it doesn't make sense, my dear lore "expert".
Of course not? How would you know that? Your guess is just as good as mine. Good job misinterpreting the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that just because the animators made a reference to an obscure Sonic game doesn't mean they also responsible for the level design of the game.
The game literally features a silly mode that allows you to have Knuckles following you while playing as Knuckles up to the end of the game where the third Knuckles picks you up and they escaped Titanic Monarch altogether.
You think I'm invalidating your argument that Angel Island being on the ocean wouldn't make sense when there's other questionable things in the Sonic universe that doesn't make sense?
I thought you figured that the Phantom Ruby having interference with the Master Emerald's power would be the cause of the island no longer floating.
That part make sense as to why the island isn't floating. We don't necessarily need to know why it does that but if they like, they could write some compelling backstory like in the Japanese manuals of the early games but they decided to have the story as simple as the American manuals.
I literally complained about this issue in my initial comment about where Classic Sonic came from. Either you're trying to troll me just to waste my time arguing this part of the argument or for reason, you misinterpreted my issue with Classic Sonic being from another dimension rather than being from the past. I mean how the hell did you came up with that conclusion when I wrote this:Or even this:Get your head out of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gutter, I never excused their poor attempt at tying the two games together when I literally complained about how it's been established that Classic Sonic is now from an alt dimension rather than the past like in Generations.
Bugger off with that claim of yours and piss off with the assumption that I shrug off with SEGA ruining the lore of Sonic and the only thing I care is "lol fest gaimeplay".
I understand that Sonic Adventure and onwards seems to be more story-driven than the Mega Drive games and most people can see that.
Try to figure out why that is because I guarantee you, more people will mention the story in detail when they review the 3D games and some of the handheld games.
And just so you know, you don't need to play Mania in order to understand the plot of Forces nor vice versa.
For the early Mario games, there's barely any story in them but I'm not confused as to why Mario has to rescue Pauline nor why Mario and Luigi has to get rid of turtles out of the underground sewers and neither do I question about Mario saving Peach as he travels through tall mushrooms to pipes that takes you to an underwater world.
I understand clearly that Sonic and Tails travelled to Angel Island because of some strange energy source only to realise they're too late and both been teleported to other locations because of the Phantom Ruby.
The transition cutscenes explains how the playable characters went from one Zone to another. Compare that to the modern Sonic games' cutscenes that contains dialogue that in some way contributes to the story of the game. Having a mini cutscene where Sonic travels from one Zone to another is not the bloody same thing and it doesn't add anything significant to the plot.
Now as I was saying, when you beat the boss in Act 2 of Titanic Monarch, you may either escape the Zone or if you're playing as Sonic with all seven Chaos Emeralds, you'll be facing against the true final boss.
What happened to Sonic at that time?
Well he either teleported back to Angel Island with the events of Sonic Mania Adventures (makes more sense), gets teleported into the repeated events of Encore Mode (doesn't make logical sense) or time travelled into the future shoehorned into the world of Sonic Forces.
Ooh, I can feel the arrogance right there. I didn't say I prefer Mania over S3&K but okay.
Even if I say it is, it's just an opinion, mate.
I'm sure there's 'worse' people who finds "Forces" or "Sonic 4" more fun than Mania.
I disagree with that but I don't act like a douche about it.
It seems both sides are in agreement that Mania's story has plot holes, one saying it explicitly, the other claiming story wasn't a high focus of the game. This has descended into a battle of opinions, a desire of better story vs not minding the lack of deeper story. The game's fun to play and it could have had a stronger story, I think we can all agree with that.
First off, I do enjoy the game as it is, however I do feel more could have been done with its story.
Anyway, Mania's main issue with story for me is the Phantom Ruby being a plot tool to explain literally anything they want in the game. It can teleport, alter time, distort appearances, transform users, and interfere with the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald. Its story flaw is it simply does too much and is relied too heavily to explain anything.
It never made sense to me why Robotnik doesn't just fling Sonic away whenever he approaches to avoid battling with him. He has the power to do that, but I understand then there wouldn't be a game then. It's just the Ruby has too much power, that it has to be purposely unused for Sonic to win. It would seem the smartest thing to do would be to transport Sonic somewhere far, or even in space or something, so that Robotnik would never have to worry about his rival ever again. Don't know why they take him to Green Hill, which is supposedly Sonic's home, while heading there as well.. it would seem more logical for Robotnik to stay at Angel Island and take the Master Emerald as well, since Tails and Knuckles are also teleported away. No one is left able to protect it, and it's not until Knuckles returns that the Heavy King considers stealing it. Why not steal it long before?
As for Encore Mode, I don't think it should be considered "canon." It's essentially a New Game+ and story-wise, makes even less sense why Robotnik would use the exact same boss machines and warp Sonic and friends to the same areas, in the same order. As I see it, it comes immediately after Forces, but so does Mania Adventures, which I think may be the real canon. Mania, Forces, then Mania Adventures.
For Knuckles' story in Mania, I think that could be seen as noncanon as well. You see him knocked off the plane in both stories, but that doesn't mean in Sonic's story, that Knuckles continues his Mania journey. As seen at the Angel Island to Green Hill cutscene, The HBHs travel with Sonic to Green Hill, but in Knuckles' story, they presumably warp Sonic, then fly away still at Angel Island to warp Knuckles, then finally appear with him at Green Hill, but underground. If Sonic and Knuckles' stories are both canon, the HBHs would have to be in two places at once.
While there are a few flaws in Mania's story, there are also some in the original Genesis games. Why the heck does Knuckles believe Robotnik's story, if his massive space station crashes on the island, sinking it, then shortly sets the whole forest on fire? The Flying Battery also comes along, dropping bombs all over, and now there are robots populating the whole place. Robotnik also excavates the island with his machines in Marble Garden and Lava Reef, and the lumber bot also chops down trees in Mushroom Hill.
I'm also pretty sure that back then, the emerald lore was that each island has its own set of Chaos Emeralds, which would explain why South Island has just 6, and why in Spinball there were.. I think 15? And in Fighters, 8. The colors and shapes are also inconsistent between games, however the ones Knuckles punches out of Sonic at the beginning follow the colors and shapes of West Side Island's emeralds, but you later collect a set of 7 emeralds of a different shape and color set. Angel Island has a shrine for the emeralds, which I think further supports each island having their own set. But let's just say there is only one set of Chaos Emeralds, why would Knuckles think Sonic's coming to steal the emeralds, if he already has them? Shouldn't he consider that perhaps he's coming to return them? I get that Knuckles is supposed to be gullible, but this doesn't seem gullible, it seems stupid.
Still tho, S3&K was an awesome game, though parts of its story feels kinda forced in, like Mania's. Things get really interesting at the Lava Reef part of S3&K and onward when story becomes more involved. I just wish Mania had its final zones string together nicely like that. It was a more climactic and satisfying ending, but Mania lets down with a more simple Sonic 1 style ending. Unless you get all emeralds, you're treated to a cool final show down, but only as Sonic, and only for a single boss fight, whereas S3&K's conclusion had more build up.
Mania had some potential, but Encore had a LOT more potential. Would have been great to have different zones and bosses so that it could pass as canon. Like we could have had a Wing Fortress zone instead of Flying Battery, or Metropolis instead of Metallic Madness. Harder special stages could have brought back the Super Emeralds for a true final boss at the end, where the Ruby could have been destroyed for good or something.. I don't know, just something more exciting than the same thing again, but LESS.
I wouldn't mind the Ruby returning in another game if it was more correctly used, I'm just worried we'll have another throwback celebration game when I'd like to have a fully new journey with its own unique story. "If all you do is celebrate your past, you'll have no future."
Well said! I think your middle ground in the situation helped there be a fair conclusion to the argument. I'm just gonna consider sonics story in mania as the only cannon which would make me generally pretty happy IF, angel island had an explanation as it was why it was in the water lol.
Also the reason why dr eggman dosen't fling sonic is because the phantom ruby is uncontrollable and is easy to lose grip of. I think eggman more so conquered a ton of areas and the phantom ruby decides where sonic goes only on a few occasions eggman having control.
Still the ending of encore mode does lead the possibility of another game... so i'm praying its ignored or else the confusing as hell story of encore mode will be cannon :(
Overall I think mania was generally fun gameplay wise. For me it and s3&k are both great fun games that are worth playing. If sonics story is the only cannon one and its explained why angel island is in the water and encore mode is never referenced in other possible new clsssic sonic games will I be happy.
I thought it would have been the other way around. The Phantom Ruby and Classic Sonic feel so detached from the rest of Forces’ story.
In both instances, Sega got shown wrong on the main attraction.
The CD remaster & Mania were prioritized as side-attractions for that percieved niche in the community that wants more classic (when in truth its alot more than a niche).