Heavy Mech Design Principle

[Silvertongued Devil]

A heavy mech in most settings is a slow, lumbering goliath toting the heaviest weapons and represent a threat that is best dealt with indirectly/outside of a direct confrontation, like at long range.

In Phantom Brigade if you have a heavy mech with heavy parts the optimal play seems to be moving them exclusively through thrusters and giving them lighter weapons because slapping a heavy one would render them even more immobile, all for a benefit (being tankier) that is typically equalled just by giving a medium mech a shield. They don't even have superior power generators, heat capacity, heat diffusion, or even protection from concussion.

This is not good.

The current system creates an incentive to use heavy mech parts exclusively in the torso (to protect the pilot) if at all; lighter and medium mechs are incentivized to be the ones wielding the heaviest weapons because they have the heat diffusion to handle it along with enough spare weight so that it doesn't turn them into a turret that can only move with thrusters. It's just a really weird, ill-fitting system all around. A light mech should not be putting out as much power as a heavy. Like... at all. It doesn't need it. The heavy does.

That said I'm hardly some genius savant, so I figure maybe it'd be good to brainstorm - as a community - ways to address the heavy mech situation without going too far in the other direction.

My current thinking would be some "minor" tweaks to help make the frame weight classes more distinct.

Stuff like:
- Synergies for weight classes, like heavy parts generating power/significantly increasing heat capacity to make them better for heavy one-and-done type of weapons but also playing up the slow lumbering archetype in that they can't do it often
- Heavy parts support weight more efficiently, but their fundamental move speed is limited. So they help if you're above a certain weight, but not much if you're lighter than that. (I like this one the most, personally)
- Disperse weight class advantages further across the various parts rather than centralising them in the torso. So... Each heavy limb also generates a small amount of power, capacity, whatever, medium limbs increase diffusion, light limbs are, well, light and mobile.
- Make it so that heavier weapons gain more stability or other bonuses for having a heavy part associated with them. So a light mech and a heavy mech can both equip a vulcan, but the heavy mech can fire it more accurately; with the downside being that they have vastly less manoeuvrability so they can't get those perfect choke point shots and are more vulnerable to incoming fire.

I turn it over to you, Phantom Brigade community: what do you think? Are heavy mechs in a good place? Do they need some love? Have I grievously missed some vital piece of information and made a fool out of myself?

Please be gentle. I mean well, honest.

Edit: Also, I am aware that you can put components into heavy parts to make them more viable - my problem is that if you need to customize a part just to make it usable it is a damning indictment of just how wonky the balance for them currently is.

[Mr.Kill]

It is kinda embarassing for heavy mechs to be so bad. Going medium and taking a ultra heavy weapon gives all the mass benefits of going heavy (i.e ram people with no issues) but none of the dangers of going heavy.

Heavy parts are kinda okay as they are, they just need you to personally open up the parts and put in mods that actually decrease the mass so you can get some walking speed (dashing is fine but heat dissipation is already at a low with heavy parts). They seem more geared for melee or other close range weapons and especially ramming attacks.

[Kerensky]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/553540/discussions/0/3787002282767832137/

[RENGOKU]

Originally posted by Kerensky:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/553540/discussions/0/3787002282767832137/

You should probably will start writing guides.

[Silvertongued Devil]

Originally posted by Kerensky:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/553540/discussions/0/3787002282767832137/

Yes, you've just described what I see as the problem: heavy mechs are thruster-hopping turrets. Not only does this feel awful, it looks goofy. Imagine building a tank that can't drive more than 15 kph, but you can hop around at 40 kph. It's a tad ridiculous.

Heavy mechs should be able to walk a decent pace, but be unable to use thrusters meaningfully without massive weight reductions. That's... kind of the whole point of light mechs, isn't it? Increased mobility? Ability to hop onto buildings and generally be squirrely little buggers while heavies lumber around at ground level?

[EpyonComet]

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

the optimal play seems to be moving them exclusively through thrusters and giving them lighter weapons because slapping a heavy one would render them even more immobile

I don't agree here. When you go in on heavy, you go all in, and when you're already at the point of all heavy armor leaning into thrusters, a heavy weapon doesn't make much more difference, whereas it basically cripples a Medium or Light where you wouldn't otherwise be building them to counter that specific problem.

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

lighter and medium mechs are incentivized to be the ones wielding the heaviest weapons because they have the heat diffusion to handle it along with enough spare weight so that it doesn't turn them into a turret that can only move with thrusters.

Heavies can dissipate heat just fine if you set them up for that. And the point of pairing the Vulcan with heavy armor, in my view, is that the Vulcan locks you into a very long firing which you can't cancel, and during which you can't practically dodge, so you need to be set up to trade during it.

Edit:

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

Yes, you've just described what I see as the problem: heavy mechs are thruster-hopping turrets. Not only does this feel awful, it looks goofy. Imagine building a tank that can't drive more than a couple of feet, but you can hop everywhere with it at a reasonable pace. It feels backwards.

Heavy mechs should be able to walk a decent pace, but be unable to use thrusters meaningfully without massive weight reductions.

That's entirely subjective and I do not agree with your assessment.

[Silvertongued Devil]

Sorry, Epyon. I edited my comment to better convey my point while you were posting, it seems.

I'm happy to agree that it is a subjective position i hold - I'm not making a claim to objectivity. I am, rather explicitly, talking about how mechs feel rather than claiming that they are factually worse in the current situation. Still, if you think the hopping thing is fine, that's okay too. It just drives me nuts because it feels backwards.

Where the Vulcan is concerned - a light mech can continue moving and dodging while firing it without any real issue beyond the accuracy loss. That's why I'm thinking heavies need a buff to regular movement and weapon stability - that way each weight class has a bit more character to it.

[EpyonComet]

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

Where the Vulcan is concerned - a light mech can continue moving and dodging while firing it without any real issue beyond the accuracy loss.

That's exactly it though, that accuracy loss is big, and being able to tank a few hits instead is how you deal big damage with that weapon. That said, I really don't know the use case for heavy mechs outside that one weapon, but tbf I think that's largely just because of our magic future-telling, which makes outright avoiding fire stupidly easy in most cases. They do make sense for the enemy at least.

[Silvertongued Devil]

Sure. Magic future-telling is certainly a factor - but in that case I think we should still try to create a use-case for one-third of the mech parts in the game outside of being a hopping turret, especially given what crazy flexibility we have with everything else.

[Superman0X]

There is another 'feature' of heavies that people forget about. Due to their innately higher integrity they can deal with overheating better. I have a melee heavy that I use for bashing people around that just ignores heat and soaks up the overheat damage. Melee is also another way to 'Dash' around the battlefield that basically makes you immune to damage (with the potential to deal some out). You also become the prime target for any close range weapons, and allow your ranged bots to be ignored.

[Galamesh]

There aren't many hidden mechanics in this game, but one of them is that collision damage is driven by the total barrier+integrity pool of the collision winner.

If a weight class 3 mech collides (dash, shield bash, just walks into...) with a class 2 mech, the class 2 mech crashes. Upon crash, a % ( I forget how much, something like 10% ) of the total integrity of the class 3 mech is dealt as damage to the crashing mech.

Additionally, it is possible to trigger multiple collisions during a crash if you push an enemy up a slope or drag them on the floor over distance, dealing said damage multiple times.

I've build a wrecking ball mech before. The goal was to deal as much damage as possible using collisions because you can make those happen without generating heat (walking into, shield bash). The problem you need to solve there is having just enough mobility to catch up with your targets to intercept them, which you can do through a combination of rolling COMPOSITE 1-3 on your gear to reduce mass, equipping BOOSTER subsystems to increase dash range and spending heat only on thrusters.

"No weapon heavy" is a build that can work. Is it going to be as efficient as 0 heat cost weapons? Probably not. It still does damage, but most importantly, it reliably interrupts enemy actions.

[✇|Sneaky Boi]

I have personally come to the conclusion that if you're going to do heavy, you should make it melee and thrust heavy. I got a really heavy boi (113 mass) that simply soaks up heat, dashes around the map like sonic, before clobbering whatever mech happens to step up.
not a single time have i had this mech knocked out, and i do some dumb stuff. Not only that he can body bump things, do some real damage when he simply runs into something like a tank or mech. AND its just fun, like really fun to watch him slap things with a big
florescent light bulb. 10/10 would recommend.

[Batailleuse]

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

A heavy mech in most settings is a slow, lumbering goliath toting the heaviest weapons and represent a threat that is best dealt with indirectly/outside of a direct confrontation, like at long range.

In Phantom Brigade if you have a heavy mech with heavy parts the optimal play seems to be moving them exclusively through thrusters and giving them lighter weapons because slapping a heavy one would render them even more immobile, all for a benefit (being tankier) that is typically equalled just by giving a medium mech a shield. They don't even have superior power generators, heat capacity, heat diffusion, or even protection from concussion.

This is not good.

The current system creates an incentive to use heavy mech parts exclusively in the torso (to protect the pilot) if at all; lighter and medium mechs are incentivized to be the ones wielding the heaviest weapons because they have the heat diffusion to handle it along with enough spare weight so that it doesn't turn them into a turret that can only move with thrusters. It's just a really weird, ill-fitting system all around. A light mech should not be putting out as much power as a heavy. Like... at all. It doesn't need it. The heavy does.

That said I'm hardly some genius savant, so I figure maybe it'd be good to brainstorm - as a community - ways to address the heavy mech situation without going too far in the other direction.

My current thinking would be some "minor" tweaks to help make the frame weight classes more distinct.

Stuff like:
- Synergies for weight classes, like heavy parts generating power/significantly increasing heat capacity to make them better for heavy one-and-done type of weapons but also playing up the slow lumbering archetype in that they can't do it often
- Heavy parts support weight more efficiently, but their fundamental move speed is limited. So they help if you're above a certain weight, but not much if you're lighter than that. (I like this one the most, personally)
- Disperse weight class advantages further across the various parts rather than centralising them in the torso. So... Each heavy limb also generates a small amount of power, capacity, whatever, medium limbs increase diffusion, light limbs are, well, light and mobile.
- Make it so that heavier weapons gain more stability or other bonuses for having a heavy part associated with them. So a light mech and a heavy mech can both equip a vulcan, but the heavy mech can fire it more accurately; with the downside being that they have vastly less manoeuvrability so they can't get those perfect choke point shots and are more vulnerable to incoming fire.

I turn it over to you, Phantom Brigade community: what do you think? Are heavy mechs in a good place? Do they need some love? Have I grievously missed some vital piece of information and made a fool out of myself?

Please be gentle. I mean well, honest.

Edit: Also, I am aware that you can put components into heavy parts to make them more viable - my problem is that if you need to customize a part just to make it usable it is a damning indictment of just how wonky the balance for them currently is.

a few question

how far did you go in the game ?

because i'm around 20-21 in level, guess what most of my mechs are ? all heavy and with shields.... yep most of them are between 80 to 95 mass.

there are NO DIFFICULTIES to move them, Atlas or Reach Thrusters.

all of them have weapons + shields, and all of them can move between 36 to 45 range with thruster, they can move faster in 2 sec than any other build outside of maybe a very light mech all focused on walking speed and not thruster.

Dissipation is King, you should pretty much only look at armor with Offensive Mods slots, where you will be putting mk3 heatsink, and those reduce power, which is required to walk.

so in the end when you go all in for heat dissipation (which you should) walking is not even an option, only thruster is, and it's by far the better way to move around. and the Thruster with high dissipation have virtually no cost to heat levels.

you probably did not test enough builds to make this post.

[Galamesh]

Originally posted by Batailleuse:

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

A heavy mech in most settings is a slow, lumbering goliath toting the heaviest weapons and represent a threat that is best dealt with indirectly/outside of a direct confrontation, like at long range.

In Phantom Brigade if you have a heavy mech with heavy parts the optimal play seems to be moving them exclusively through thrusters and giving them lighter weapons because slapping a heavy one would render them even more immobile, all for a benefit (being tankier) that is typically equalled just by giving a medium mech a shield. They don't even have superior power generators, heat capacity, heat diffusion, or even protection from concussion.

This is not good.

The current system creates an incentive to use heavy mech parts exclusively in the torso (to protect the pilot) if at all; lighter and medium mechs are incentivized to be the ones wielding the heaviest weapons because they have the heat diffusion to handle it along with enough spare weight so that it doesn't turn them into a turret that can only move with thrusters. It's just a really weird, ill-fitting system all around. A light mech should not be putting out as much power as a heavy. Like... at all. It doesn't need it. The heavy does.

That said I'm hardly some genius savant, so I figure maybe it'd be good to brainstorm - as a community - ways to address the heavy mech situation without going too far in the other direction.

My current thinking would be some "minor" tweaks to help make the frame weight classes more distinct.

Stuff like:
- Synergies for weight classes, like heavy parts generating power/significantly increasing heat capacity to make them better for heavy one-and-done type of weapons but also playing up the slow lumbering archetype in that they can't do it often
- Heavy parts support weight more efficiently, but their fundamental move speed is limited. So they help if you're above a certain weight, but not much if you're lighter than that. (I like this one the most, personally)
- Disperse weight class advantages further across the various parts rather than centralising them in the torso. So... Each heavy limb also generates a small amount of power, capacity, whatever, medium limbs increase diffusion, light limbs are, well, light and mobile.
- Make it so that heavier weapons gain more stability or other bonuses for having a heavy part associated with them. So a light mech and a heavy mech can both equip a vulcan, but the heavy mech can fire it more accurately; with the downside being that they have vastly less manoeuvrability so they can't get those perfect choke point shots and are more vulnerable to incoming fire.

I turn it over to you, Phantom Brigade community: what do you think? Are heavy mechs in a good place? Do they need some love? Have I grievously missed some vital piece of information and made a fool out of myself?

Please be gentle. I mean well, honest.

Edit: Also, I am aware that you can put components into heavy parts to make them more viable - my problem is that if you need to customize a part just to make it usable it is a damning indictment of just how wonky the balance for them currently is.

a few question

how far did you go in the game ?

because i'm around 20-21 in level, guess what most of my mechs are ? all heavy and with shields.... yep most of them are between 80 to 95 mass.

there are NO DIFFICULTIES to move them, Atlas or Reach Thrusters.

all of them have weapons + shields, and all of them can move between 36 to 45 range with thruster, they can move faster in 2 sec than any other build outside of maybe a very light mech all focused on walking speed and not thruster.

Dissipation is King, you should pretty much only look at armor with Offensive Mods slots, where you will be putting mk3 heatsink, and those reduce power, which is required to walk.

so in the end when you go all in for heat dissipation (which you should) walking is not even an option, only thruster is, and it's by far the better way to move around. and the Thruster with high dissipation have virtually no cost to heat levels.

you probably did not test enough builds to make this post.

I think you should give OP's post another read because all your points are outlined in that post.

You're also potentially confusing heavy as a weight class and specifically heavy armor parts. If you add enough weight, even light armor can create a heavy weight class mech.

[Batailleuse]

Originally posted by Galamesh:

I think you should give OP's post another read because all your points are outlined in that post.

You're also potentially confusing heavy as a weight class and specifically heavy armor parts. If you add enough weight, even light armor can create a heavy weight class mech.

he says game incentivize

" and giving them lighter weapons because slapping a heavy one would render them even more immobile"

no they don't you can have a full heavy armor mech with heavy weapon or sniper + heaviest of shield and still move fast each turn.

"lighter and medium mechs are incentivized to be the ones wielding the heaviest weapons because they have the heat diffusion"

no they don't some heavy part have better base dissipation than light or medium models, period, mod type count as well, and when it comes to mods, Heatsink mk3 is the best (4 heat but you lose 4 power).

if anything the game pushes you to use the HIGHEST possible dissipation, regardless of mech class (light/medium/heavy) and if you go full Dissipation, you end up with low movement anyways, so Thruster become the only optimal way to move on the map, again, regardless of weight class of your mech.

Thrusters are the best for movement because dissipation is the only real important metric in the game to win fights, as simple as that.

i put anyone that disagree to make a team focused purely on movement speed, no thrusters, and with barely functional dissipation, able to only shoot maybe 1 time per turn see how well and fast they clear missions. is it doable ? probably, is it fun to run around the map for 10 turns before you clear the mission ? debatable.

[Galamesh]

Originally posted by Batailleuse:

Originally posted by Galamesh:

I think you should give OP's post another read because all your points are outlined in that post.

You're also potentially confusing heavy as a weight class and specifically heavy armor parts. If you add enough weight, even light armor can create a heavy weight class mech.

he says game incentivize

" and giving them lighter weapons because slapping a heavy one would render them even more immobile"

no they don't you can have a full heavy armor mech with heavy weapon or sniper + heaviest of shield and still move fast each turn.

"lighter and medium mechs are incentivized to be the ones wielding the heaviest weapons because they have the heat diffusion"

no they don't some heavy part have better base dissipation than light or medium models, period, mod type count as well, and when it comes to mods, Heatsink mk3 is the best (4 heat but you lose 4 power).

if anything the game pushes you to use the HIGHEST possible dissipation, regardless of mech class (light/medium/heavy) and if you go full Dissipation, you end up with low movement anyways, so Thruster become the only optimal way to move on the map, again, regardless of weight class of your mech.

Thrusters are the best for movement because dissipation is the only real important metric in the game to win fights, as simple as that.

i put anyone that disagree to make a team focused purely on movement speed, no thrusters, and with barely functional dissipation, able to only shoot maybe 1 time per turn see how well and fast they clear missions. is it doable ? probably, is it fun to run around the map for 10 turns before you clear the mission ? debatable.

The two sets with the highest base dissipation are medium and light respectively.

You can make a unit that dissipates enough to shoot vulkan or solarburst for 0 cost and still have a speed of 14-15 or so. Those sets can equip the same thrusters as any heavy, so thrusters are not a plus for heavy. Both pure Tusbasa and Bein can achieve this.

Can you get even higher dissipation by mixing some parts with less base dissipation but with an offensive subsystem hardpoint? Sure. Is that useful? Not really. If your weapon has 0 cost, then you only build heat if you dash, and you don't have to dash that much.

Depending on the weapon you use, you can absolutely get to a point that you have too much dissipation.

I think you have the discussion backwards. Make a set with Asgard or Helge that mediums or light can't do better. That's the point.