how do some of you put over 1k hours in this game?

[ghoul]

i know it has workshop but still what keeps you playing? is it versus?

[Vazkulator]

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

The vast amount of gamemodes and the amount of time they take to master.
Took me 500 hours to master co-op expert and realism and breeze through campaigns, took me 2000 hours to learn and improve in survival (and I've still not mastered that) and it'll take a few more thousand hours to improve and master competitive versus. Ontop of that there's variations, you can do a 1v1 or a solo survival/campaign run, you can try to record clips for frag videos, you can make maps and mods. There's pretty much no defining "end" to what you can keep learning and improving on, since even the best of the best can still improve

why did it take you that long ? maybe youre capable of making a recap on what took so long considering that there arent too many different types of special infected, a difference in mechanics both in the matter of the amounts/differences in abilities, the spawn system is very very much simplified, the animations of both special infected as well as commons are very much simplified which makes the target focus very easy to adapt to.

the campaigns arent many, neither are they very large; learning and adapting varies on things like where its easy to get pinned and make coordinated attacks, the spawn system will still never change, its simple and the target focus is lax.

where do you set the bar of too little experience and where do you set the bar on "enough" ?
these are the question im confident that youll never answer because itll work against you.

[JAiZ]

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

The vast amount of gamemodes and the amount of time they take to master.
Took me 500 hours to master co-op expert and realism and breeze through campaigns, took me 2000 hours to learn and improve in survival (and I've still not mastered that) and it'll take a few more thousand hours to improve and master competitive versus. Ontop of that there's variations, you can do a 1v1 or a solo survival/campaign run, you can try to record clips for frag videos, you can make maps and mods. There's pretty much no defining "end" to what you can keep learning and improving on, since even the best of the best can still improve

why did it take you that long ? maybe youre capable of making a recap on what took so long considering that there arent too many different types of special infected, a difference in mechanics both in the matter of the amounts/differences in abilities, the spawn system is very very much simplified, the animations of both special infected as well as commons are very much simplified which makes the target focus very easy to adapt to.

the campaigns arent many, neither are they very large; learning and adapting varies on things like where its easy to get pinned and make coordinated attacks, the spawn system will still never change, its simple and the target focus is lax.

where do you set the bar of too little experience and where do you set the bar on "enough" ?
these are the question im confident that youll never answer because itll work against you.

Pretty much learning the maps in-and out by heart, with spawnpoints of items and guns, as well as soloing every single campaign in expert realism without dying is what took so long for co-op. That's coupled with other tricks like efficiently levelling, skeeting, deadstopping ,etc... that took a decent chunk of time to perfect.
What's taking long for survival is in regards to the competition posed by others, you're not going to get a world record after just a few hundred games in survival, you need to learn the AI pathing, when to use supplies, supporting your team, the map-specific strategies and techniques, how to master each of the 4 respective positions (or just mastering one specific position if you get yourself a set team), plus soloing in survival is quite a challenge as well, with most people not even reaching something as low as the gold medal. And competitive versus is a whole new tier of difficulty in and of itsself.

Good enough of a recap for you?

[Vazkulator]

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

why did it take you that long ? maybe youre capable of making a recap on what took so long considering that there arent too many different types of special infected, a difference in mechanics both in the matter of the amounts/differences in abilities, the spawn system is very very much simplified, the animations of both special infected as well as commons are very much simplified which makes the target focus very easy to adapt to.

the campaigns arent many, neither are they very large; learning and adapting varies on things like where its easy to get pinned and make coordinated attacks, the spawn system will still never change, its simple and the target focus is lax.

where do you set the bar of too little experience and where do you set the bar on "enough" ?
these are the question im confident that youll never answer because itll work against you.

Pretty much learning the maps in-and out by heart, with spawnpoints of items and guns, as well as soloing every single campaign in expert realism without dying is what took so long for co-op. That's coupled with other tricks like efficiently levelling, skeeting, deadstopping ,etc... that took a decent chunk of time to perfect.
What's taking long for survival is in regards to the competition posed by others, you're not going to get a world record after just a few hundred games in survival, you need to learn the AI pathing, when to use supplies, supporting your team, the map-specific strategies and techniques, how to master each of the 4 respective positions (or just mastering one specific position if you get yourself a set team), plus soloing in survival is quite a challenge as well, with most people not even reaching something as low as the gold medal. And competitive versus is a whole new tier of difficulty in and of itsself.

Good enough of a recap for you?

ok so you need more than an hour to adapt to waypathing ? theres actually waypathing guides that explains how "exploiting" waypathing works and spots to move to in order to break the AI and re-route in order to get back on track in finding you, those guides often contain little information while mostly using .gif pictures of few second sequences of how it works and what you can do.

this is survival in left 4 dead 2 where almost all world records thats been recorded is exploited with these types of pathing problems.

about spawn locations of resources, how long should it take for the average player and why ? considering that the maps are not big and the locations are most often decided with some common sense where theyre the most legitimate and easy to be found

again, i had some questions which you ignored;
where do you set the bar on too little experience and where do you set the bar on "enough" ?
these are the question im confident that youll never answer because itll work against you.

[JAiZ]

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Pretty much learning the maps in-and out by heart, with spawnpoints of items and guns, as well as soloing every single campaign in expert realism without dying is what took so long for co-op. That's coupled with other tricks like efficiently levelling, skeeting, deadstopping ,etc... that took a decent chunk of time to perfect.
What's taking long for survival is in regards to the competition posed by others, you're not going to get a world record after just a few hundred games in survival, you need to learn the AI pathing, when to use supplies, supporting your team, the map-specific strategies and techniques, how to master each of the 4 respective positions (or just mastering one specific position if you get yourself a set team), plus soloing in survival is quite a challenge as well, with most people not even reaching something as low as the gold medal. And competitive versus is a whole new tier of difficulty in and of itsself.

Good enough of a recap for you?

ok so you need more than an hour to adapt to waypathing ? theres actually waypathing guides that explains how "exploiting" waypathing works and spots to move to in order to break the AI and re-route in order to get back on track in finding you, those guides often contain little information while mostly using .gif pictures of few second sequences of how it works and what you can do.

Seeing theory and doing it in practice are vastly diffrent, if it's so simple, go ahead and record an expert realism solo run, or do 10 minutes solo on a survival map other than mall.

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

this is survival in left 4 dead 2 where almost all world records thats been recorded is exploited with these types of pathing problems.

Using the Ai pathing to one's benefit is not against any rules, matter of fact it's basic gameplay.

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

about spawn locations of resources, how long should it take for the average player and why ? considering that the maps are not big and the locations are most often decided with some common sense where theyre the most legitimate and easy to be found

There's easily up to a thousand diffrent places things can spawn in, and because every playthrough is diffrent and spawns diffrent items in diffrent places, it'll take at least a couple of playthroughs for all campaigns to learn most item locations. The speedrun world record for all campaigns (l4d1 and l4d2) is about 2 hours I believe, and that's with shortcuts, linear-movement, and no exploration. SO we can safely say to completely every campaign while also checking most areas can easily be a 4-5 hour ordeal, and that's playing each campaign once. Playing them multiple times just multiplies that. 3 playthroughs on every single campaign can put you at 15 hours, a 4th playthrough on every single campaign will put you at 20 hours total. Don't forget that at low hours people still go through campaigns slowly, so it automatically takes more time. You should know this, you literally have low hours yourself.

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

again, i had some questions which you ignored;
where do you set the bar on too little experience and where do you set the bar on "enough" ?
these are the question im confident that youll never answer because itll work against you.

Setting bars is subjective, to me mastering a gamemode is dependant of the gamemode. If you can complete every co-op campaign on expert realism solo, then you've mastered campaign. If you get a world record on every survival map then you've mastered survival. If you compete and win in tournaments, you've mastered versus. Just don't forget that "mastering a gamemode" doesn't mean being finished, since you can always improve and still do better.
Solo'd all campaign in expert realism? Try it without using any weapons.
Got a world record in a survival map? Go for a higher time.
Won a competitive tournament? Keep playing and win even more.

There's no end to improving, what one considers "good enough" is up to that person themself.

[Vazkulator]

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

ok so you need more than an hour to adapt to waypathing ? theres actually waypathing guides that explains how "exploiting" waypathing works and spots to move to in order to break the AI and re-route in order to get back on track in finding you, those guides often contain little information while mostly using .gif pictures of few second sequences of how it works and what you can do.

Seeing theory and doing it in practice are vastly diffrent, if it's so simple, go ahead and record an expert realism solo run, or do 10 minutes solo on a survival map other than mall.

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

this is survival in left 4 dead 2 where almost all world records thats been recorded is exploited with these types of pathing problems.

Using the Ai pathing to one's benefit is not against any rules, matter of fact it's basic gameplay.

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

about spawn locations of resources, how long should it take for the average player and why ? considering that the maps are not big and the locations are most often decided with some common sense where theyre the most legitimate and easy to be found

There's easily up to a thousand diffrent places things can spawn in, and because every playthrough is diffrent and spawns diffrent items in diffrent places, it'll take at least a couple of playthroughs for all campaigns to learn most item locations. The speedrun world record for all campaigns (l4d1 and l4d2) is about 2 hours I believe, and that's with shortcuts, linear-movement, and no exploration. SO we can safely say to completely every campaign while also checking most areas can easily be a 4-5 hour ordeal, and that's playing each campaign once. Playing them multiple times just multiplies that. 3 playthroughs on every single campaign can put you at 15 hours, a 4th playthrough on every single campaign will put you at 20 hours total. Don't forget that at low hours people still go through campaigns slowly, so it automatically takes more time. You should know this, you literally have low hours yourself.

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

again, i had some questions which you ignored;
where do you set the bar on too little experience and where do you set the bar on "enough" ?
these are the question im confident that youll never answer because itll work against you.

Setting bars is subjective, to me mastering a gamemode is dependant of the gamemode. If you can complete every co-op campaign on expert realism solo, then you've mastered campaign. If you get a world record on every survival map then you've mastered survival. If you compete and win in tournaments, you've mastered versus. Just don't forget that "mastering a gamemode" doesn't mean being finished, since you can always improve and still do better.
Solo'd all campaign in expert realism? Try it without using any weapons.
Got a world record in a survival map? Go for a higher time.
Won a competitive tournament? Keep playing and win even more.

There's no end to improving, what one considers "good enough" is up to that person themself.

what do you consider thousand different places to spawn in when source games mostly consist of hallways and small rooms as a difference in spawn locations ? theres a fine limit to the amount of hallways and rooms to fit in each chapter, while there arent that many official maps, thousands would seem illogical wouldnt you agree ?

considering exploitation as a means of basic gameplay is beyond me, the most games wouldnt aknowledge such gameplay as a legit WR holder.

okay anyway, i think ive got enough info since you cant set the bar of enough and too little after over 2000 hours while you find it legitimate that one has only mastered survival once hes claimed a world record.

[JAiZ]

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Seeing theory and doing it in practice are vastly diffrent, if it's so simple, go ahead and record an expert realism solo run, or do 10 minutes solo on a survival map other than mall.

Using the Ai pathing to one's benefit is not against any rules, matter of fact it's basic gameplay.

There's easily up to a thousand diffrent places things can spawn in, and because every playthrough is diffrent and spawns diffrent items in diffrent places, it'll take at least a couple of playthroughs for all campaigns to learn most item locations. The speedrun world record for all campaigns (l4d1 and l4d2) is about 2 hours I believe, and that's with shortcuts, linear-movement, and no exploration. SO we can safely say to completely every campaign while also checking most areas can easily be a 4-5 hour ordeal, and that's playing each campaign once. Playing them multiple times just multiplies that. 3 playthroughs on every single campaign can put you at 15 hours, a 4th playthrough on every single campaign will put you at 20 hours total. Don't forget that at low hours people still go through campaigns slowly, so it automatically takes more time. You should know this, you literally have low hours yourself.

Setting bars is subjective, to me mastering a gamemode is dependant of the gamemode. If you can complete every co-op campaign on expert realism solo, then you've mastered campaign. If you get a world record on every survival map then you've mastered survival. If you compete and win in tournaments, you've mastered versus. Just don't forget that "mastering a gamemode" doesn't mean being finished, since you can always improve and still do better.
Solo'd all campaign in expert realism? Try it without using any weapons.
Got a world record in a survival map? Go for a higher time.
Won a competitive tournament? Keep playing and win even more.

There's no end to improving, what one considers "good enough" is up to that person themself.

what do you consider thousand different places to spawn in when source games mostly consist of hallways and small rooms as a difference in spawn locations ? theres a fine limit to the amount of hallways and rooms to fit in each chapter, while there arent that many official maps, thousands would seem illogical wouldnt you agree ?

considering exploitation as a means of basic gameplay is beyond me, the most games wouldnt aknowledge such gameplay as a legit WR holder.

okay anyway, i think ive got enough info since you cant set the bar of enough and too little after over 2000 hours while you find it legitimate that one has only mastered survival once hes claimed a world record.

If you want to think you mastered survival after only reaching 10 minutes, that's your thing, everyone sets their own bar, and if you want to set yours so low that's none of my business

And by spawnpoints, I mean items and guns, and not just where they spawn, but also what can spawn there, how to manipulate spawns to spawn medkits instead of pills, how to determine if a tank or witch is ahead by the items spawned, and how to conserve items or know when to save items (a simple example would be dark carnival: bile map 1, you know you'll need it on map 4, so you know to conserve it. This is only something you'd probably pick up on after a full playthrough, and that's one of the more obvious things, there's tons that are less obvious)

if you think the Ai pathing is worthy of disqualification, how would you go about verifying times? no matter what movement you make, you're manipulating the ai pathing in some way, shape, or form, so it is indeed a fundamental.
Ever melee-killed a tank? that's ai manipulation, you exploit the bad targetting from the first punch after a tank rock, and use the predictable punches to melee-kill the tank safely. That would also be exploiting of bad Ai, wouldn't it?

[Vazkulator]

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

what do you consider thousand different places to spawn in when source games mostly consist of hallways and small rooms as a difference in spawn locations ? theres a fine limit to the amount of hallways and rooms to fit in each chapter, while there arent that many official maps, thousands would seem illogical wouldnt you agree ?

considering exploitation as a means of basic gameplay is beyond me, the most games wouldnt aknowledge such gameplay as a legit WR holder.

okay anyway, i think ive got enough info since you cant set the bar of enough and too little after over 2000 hours while you find it legitimate that one has only mastered survival once hes claimed a world record.

If you want to think you mastered survival after only reaching 10 minutes, that's your thing, everyone sets their own bar, and if you want to set yours so low that's none of my business

And by spawnpoints, I mean items and guns, and not just where they spawn, but also what can spawn there, how to manipulate spawns to spawn medkits instead of pills, how to determine if a tank or witch is ahead by the items spawned, and how to conserve items or know when to save items (a simple example would be dark carnival: bile map 1, you know you'll need it on map 4, so you know to conserve it. This is only something you'd probably pick up on after a full playthrough, and that's one of the more obvious things, there's tons that are less obvious)

if you think the Ai pathing is worthy of disqualification, how would you go about verifying times? no matter what movement you make, you're manipulating the ai pathing in some way, shape, or form, so it is indeed a fundamental.
Ever melee-killed a tank? that's ai manipulation, you exploit the bad targetting from the first punch after a tank rock, and use the predictable punches to melee-kill the tank safely. That would also be exploiting of bad Ai, wouldn't it?

gotcha, dont waste the lunch box if youre not hungry and look out around the hallways and rooms nearby and you shouldve mastered the game, am i right ?

[JAiZ]

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

If you want to think you mastered survival after only reaching 10 minutes, that's your thing, everyone sets their own bar, and if you want to set yours so low that's none of my business

And by spawnpoints, I mean items and guns, and not just where they spawn, but also what can spawn there, how to manipulate spawns to spawn medkits instead of pills, how to determine if a tank or witch is ahead by the items spawned, and how to conserve items or know when to save items (a simple example would be dark carnival: bile map 1, you know you'll need it on map 4, so you know to conserve it. This is only something you'd probably pick up on after a full playthrough, and that's one of the more obvious things, there's tons that are less obvious)

if you think the Ai pathing is worthy of disqualification, how would you go about verifying times? no matter what movement you make, you're manipulating the ai pathing in some way, shape, or form, so it is indeed a fundamental.
Ever melee-killed a tank? that's ai manipulation, you exploit the bad targetting from the first punch after a tank rock, and use the predictable punches to melee-kill the tank safely. That would also be exploiting of bad Ai, wouldn't it?

gotcha, dont waste the lunch box if youre not hungry and look out around the hallways and rooms nearby and you shouldve mastered the game, am i right ?

Nice try at twisting around words!
I said mastering the specific gamemode each time, not mastering the game, don't try using strawmen so obviously, especially not by something as simple as replacing a word.

If you had some more experience in the game, you'd know there's a lot of steps to becoming good, but you don't know that of course.

[Vazkulator]

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

gotcha, dont waste the lunch box if youre not hungry and look out around the hallways and rooms nearby and you shouldve mastered the game, am i right ?

Nice try at twisting around words!
I said mastering the specific gamemode each time, not mastering the game, don't try using strawmen so obviously, especially not by something as simple as replacing a word.

If you had some more experience in the game, you'd know there's a lot of steps to becoming good, but you don't know that of course.

wouldnt say twisting, more like a summary

[JAiZ]

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Nice try at twisting around words!
I said mastering the specific gamemode each time, not mastering the game, don't try using strawmen so obviously, especially not by something as simple as replacing a word.

If you had some more experience in the game, you'd know there's a lot of steps to becoming good, but you don't know that of course.

wouldnt say twisting, more like a summary

A summary involves recapping something, not altering the words or sense of something.
It's like a quote, you use the same words, not other words that fit your agenda

[Vazkulator]

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

wouldnt say twisting, more like a summary

A summary involves recapping something, not altering the words or sense of something.
It's like a quote, you use the same words, not other words that fit your agenda

what did i miss ? exploiting the dumb waypathing in this game ?

[JAiZ]

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

A summary involves recapping something, not altering the words or sense of something.
It's like a quote, you use the same words, not other words that fit your agenda

what did i miss ? exploiting the dumb waypathing in this game ?

Quite literally everything.
Scroll back up and read through every word, but with both eyes open this time

and no, don't turn off your monitor now

[Vazkulator]

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

what did i miss ? exploiting the dumb waypathing in this game ?

Quite literally everything.
Scroll back up and read through every word, but with both eyes open this time

and no, don't turn off your monitor now

what did i miss ? exploiting the dumb waypathing in this game ?

[JAiZ]

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Quite literally everything.
Scroll back up and read through every word, but with both eyes open this time

and no, don't turn off your monitor now

what did i miss ? exploiting the dumb waypathing in this game ?

Quite literally everything. Try reading it again.

[Vazkulator]

Първоначално публикувано от JAiZ:

Първоначално публикувано от Vazkulator:

what did i miss ? exploiting the dumb waypathing in this game ?

Quite literally everything. Try reading it again.

whats everything ? i made a summary but you believe that its lacking but you dont provide any substance for such claims at all.

your input is redundant