Train Sim World: CSX Heavy Haul

Train Sim World: CSX Heavy Haul

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VR Support?
Will there be VR support for this?
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Showing 166-180 of 194 comments
Shadders Jun 20 @ 12:40pm 
@DTG_Luke
While I admire what DTG are trying to do in TSW, I think you need to consider what people mean by a “Train Simulator”, your definition and mine may not be the same.

Please understand that, as an end user, Simugraphs are currently meaningless, it’s a buzzword, an entity I can’t see beyond the screen shots and videos that DTG release.
Not only that, all it’s joyful wonderfulness is destroyed by a throttle that does not apply in a realistic way at all. It’s all notches and you’ll never accelerate above the arbitrarily set limit DTG have imposed.

Next, a “Simulator” needs to have consequence for users that operate outside of the parameters of the locative or the wagons attached. Even MS Train Sim modelled wagons better and restricted max train speed based on the min speed of a wagon the consist.
TSW has nothing, I can crank the throttle up with no wheel slip, no flash over, no derailment. Things don’t even get a bit wobbly as I burn past some 15mph points at 90pmh.

So no, TSW is far from earning the title of “Simulator”.
I hope that answers the question I’m amazed you had to ask!
Kanawha Jun 20 @ 10:51pm 
TSW is a train driving game, the only programs that come close to trains and rail transport similation are Run8, ZuSi, ЖДС (Russian train Sim). Even OpenRails is better in the simulation aspect than TSW. Console players aren’t even interested in proper simulation of mass, inertia, safety systems, dispatching, all of which are only implemented at toy train level at the moment in TSW.

Hopefully TSW can grow into a simulation to match those I mentioned, but a lot of work needs to be done still.
Originally posted by DTG_Luke:
@AtomicWoodchuck, keep it clean...

And why are you so convinced that TSW isn't a simulation? I genuinely would like to hear your explanation on this. It can't be just because it's going cross-platform. Have you seen the detail in the diesel-electric Simugraphs we've been showing in recent articles? The Simugraphs aren't a PC Only feature...
Hi Luke,

Thanks for your reply. Appreciate this new regime, where a civil reply to a sometimes less than completely civil post (sorry) is favoured over the DTG policy of yesteryear, where deleting posts and administering indefinite forum bans was the "go to" solution.

Anyhow, for me a "simulation", in a software sense, is something which models the experience of doing something and provides a high degree of immersion. It's the feeling of "being there" and "doing it". Outrun is not a driving simulator. Project Cars is.

Efforts to replicate the experience of the simulated activity in as detailed and accurate a manner as possible, and making design choices to this end mark out a "simulation" vs a "game".

Appreciate your definition may not match mine at all. Just defining my expectations, first up :)

My thoughts are that there is far too focus on "gamey" concepts rather than simulation aspects. Is the goal to accurately model what it "feels like" to drive a train? If so, the more extras which can be incorporated, the better (ie TrackIR, bespoke controller and other relevant hardware compatibility, VR). Or is it a game (focus on "gamey" scoring mechanics, racing to make artificial timetable deadlines instead of the more laid back "real life" timetables one might consider "accurate", etc.)? It still seems as if Train Racing (feathering the throttle to hover on the speed limit in order to meet unrealistically tight timetables) is the order of the day. Not exactly the everyday experience of your average train driver, or a representative simulation of the experience, I would suggest...

The physics, particularly when pulling a heavy load is waaaay off, and shows that little thought has been put into making this aspect of the game in comparison to, say, the visuals. You can show me all of the Simugraphs you want, but until it actually FEELS like driving a train, rather than just LOOKING and [occasionally] SOUNDING (although the less said about DTG's "realistic" sounds, traditionally recycled from locomotive to locomotive, the better) like you're doing it, you've got a game or, at best, a very amateurish and weak "simulation". Well, at least the trains LOOK snazzy for those all-important screenshots and Facebook posts...

Casting an eye across the simulation genre, the best flight SIMULATORS (and DCS is miles ahead of the competition here, although releases such as IL2 are worth a mention for their levels of immersion) strive to allow hardcore simmers to use whatever technology is out there to make for a more realistic, and close-to-real-life experience. What steps are DTG taking to accommodate this with a goal to making their product as realistic as it can be, for those who care about such things? Very few, as far as I can see. Just a lot of talk of "not ruling things out". Serious PC simulation developers have traditionally been pioneers on this front. There are leaders and followers in many walks of life, and in terms of PC software development, I get the feeling that DTG seem to be very much in the "let's see what the other guys do, and watch how it works out for them before we embark on anything brave" camp. Risk taking in the name of providing the most realistic experience possible simply isn't in their DNA.

Is your target market hardcore simmers, or "as many people as possible"? I suspect you would say "as many people as possible" and, this being the case, accessibility would inevitably come ahead of hardcore realism. That's a perfectly reasonable commercial decision in a niche as small as this, but inevitably such a focus is going to mean favouring "gamey" design choices ahead of "realism", more often than not, when the two are in irreconcilable conflict.

To bring it back to VR, how immersive would it be to manipulate the controls in a fully interactive, roomscale cab? This is a reality in DCS. Sure, not everyone has VR, but companies such as the makers of DCS don't get scared about that. Their goal is to make the most immersive simulation possible, and it's completely scaleabale. If you don't have VR, play it on flat screen. If you don't have HOTAS, use a mouse and keyboard. Your experience may not be quite as immersive, but they seem determined that it will be as realistic as your equipment allows. That's an awesome attitude, and shows their genuine passion for the subject manner. I don't mind splashing out $30, $40 or $50 on DCS DLC given their attitude, and the incredible realism offered by their products.

Finally, you mention the console version, and maybe it's a relevant point. While I don't believe that having the game on XBox has to automatically make it any less of a simulator, surely it makes it harder for DTG to take the decision to embrace amazing simulation-targetted PC hardware such as TrackIR, custom controllers, and decent quality VR, when there is no application of this technology to the console version, and their absence will make it a markedly inferior product? You would surely have to admit it complicates things, particularly if you are trying to keep all of the platforms in sync?

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm not blind to the commercial aspects, relatively low VR HMD and genre specific hardware ownership (although I am certain simmers are disproportionately represented in these stats), in addition to the added headaches of development for such a diverse array of peripherals. There is every chance that those such as the DCS team are far more skilled developers, who embraced VR early, giving them an obvious advantage, but hopefully DTG will be taking some positive steps to catch up, and make TSW the DCS of the train genre.

I look forward to the day when a DTG press release or headline captures my imagination, and makes me say "Wow!" instead of the usual "Meh". Everything about TSW seems so underwhelming and, aside from the graphical overhaul and the semi-open-world schtick, a step sideways in terms of realism and immersiveness.
^^^ AtomicWoodChuck sums it up perfectly. I suspect the chief decision-maker at DTG needs to go. Bring in someone who isn't focused purely on DLC but instead with a goal of reducing the negative feedback through core product improvement which would include support for VR etc.

I have little hope of that news ever appearing if you look at DTG history. It's purely focused on buying an IP and slicing it up as paid DLC. "haven't ruled it out" ultimately means very little.
DTG_Luke  [developer] Jun 28 @ 4:12am 
Hi guys. Thanks for your replies.

We are taking this on board. Physics simulation is something that we're taking a crack at with Simugraph. To put it in plain english, simugraph is our new system of modelling all the systems of the locomotive and simulating how they interact with eachother. Like for example, how the throttle control is linked to the diesel engine and the DC Generator, which interact with eachother and then apply power to the traction motors etc... Very complex stuff going on which will massively improve the physics of the game. This will lead to things like wheel-slip, realistic braking and struggling under load.
It's unfortunate this physics simulation wasn't present in the game to begin with, but we are working to implement the simugraph into our previously released TSW content.
Unfortunately though we will have to limit certain consequences. for reasons already said, we have to try and dis-allow derailments and crashes...
KMC Jun 28 @ 5:49am 
Originally posted by DTG_Luke:
Hi guys. Thanks for your replies.

We are taking this on board. Physics simulation is something that we're taking a crack at with Simugraph. .
[snip].blah blah blah..[/snip]

It's unfortunate this physics simulation wasn't present in the game to begin with, but we are working to implement the simugraph into our previously released TSW content.
..

So what was this back in 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVmo281NUg8 ?????????, are you saying even with all that promotional blurb about Simugraph (14 Oct 2016) that it is not actually implimented in to the core CSX as of yet... Pretty big open admission to false advertising if you ask me....
DTG_Luke  [developer] Jun 28 @ 6:23am 
Originally posted by DTG_Luke:
Hi guys. Thanks for your replies.

We are taking this on board. Physics simulation is something that we're taking a crack at with Simugraph. .
[snip].blah blah blah..[/snip]

It's unfortunate this physics simulation wasn't present in the game to begin with, but we are working to implement the simugraph into our previously released TSW content.
..

Ok... I'll hold my hands up, personal mis-understanding on my part.
Just got poked by the devs and told that Simugraph has been in the game all along. The massive overhaul and improvements to the diesel-electric simulation as detailed here:
https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/diesel-electric-simulation-improvements
is new and that's what's being rolled out. Before, the simugraph simulations were "simplified", in comparison to the changes that are happening, and resulted in what we experience in most of the game at the moment.

Live and learn, sorry.
Last edited by DTG_Luke; Jun 28 @ 6:35am
So Simugraph was "in the game" since way back in its developmental stages but, if I am reading the article correctly, wasn't implemented in ANY of the locomotives thus far?
TrainSim_Martin  [developer] Jun 29 @ 2:48am 
Hey folks,

I'm gonna jump in here to clear this up quickly. Simugraph is how trains are modelled in TSW - it would be completely impossible for a train in TSW not to be set up in Simugraph as it's a critical part of the code.

That doesn't mean that just 'using Simugraph' give a perfect experience of course, we can always refine how things are modelled in Simugraph to give better and more accurate performance. That's what the Diesel-Electrics update was about - refreshing how diesel-electric engines are made in Simugraph.

I hope that clears things up a little bit for people!

Best wishes,
Martin
EdmundV Jul 2 @ 12:50pm 
Looking at all these posts it is blatantly clear that VR is the way foward and that DTG are not interested, no matter how loud we shout. Although I have the game I, like many more, will not be putting any more investment into DTG until they start listening to the end user.

Simugraph means nothing to me whatsoever. I want to drive the trains and enjoy my investment (Oculus Rift) in the new immersive technology, much more interesting than Simugraph settings on my part.

DTG, if you want more money from customers then get the priorities right. It's what we want, not what you believe you know we want......

Go fly a plane in X-Plane with VR then fly it on a monitor and come back to tell me the monitor experience wasn't archaic compared to VR...
Last edited by EdmundV; Jul 2 @ 12:52pm
Originally posted by EdmundV:
Looking at all these posts it is blatantly clear that VR is the way foward and that DTG are not interested, no matter how loud we shout. Although I have the game I, like many more, will not be putting any more investment into DTG until they start listening to the end user.

Simugraph means nothing to me whatsoever. I want to drive the trains and enjoy my investment (Oculus Rift) in the new immersive technology, much more interesting than Simugraph settings on my part.

DTG, if you want more money from customers then get the priorities right. It's what we want, not what you believe you know we want......

Go fly a plane in X-Plane with VR then fly it on a monitor and come back to tell me the monitor experience wasn't archaic compared to VR...

^^^ This.
Last edited by Pie Face Poo Face; Jul 2 @ 1:08pm
Originally posted by EdmundV:
Looking at all these posts it is blatantly clear that VR is the way foward and that DTG are not interested, no matter how loud we shout. Although I have the game I, like many more, will not be putting any more investment into DTG until they start listening to the end user.

Simugraph means nothing to me whatsoever. I want to drive the trains and enjoy my investment (Oculus Rift) in the new immersive technology, much more interesting than Simugraph settings on my part.

DTG, if you want more money from customers then get the priorities right. It's what we want, not what you believe you know we want......

Go fly a plane in X-Plane with VR then fly it on a monitor and come back to tell me the monitor experience wasn't archaic compared to VR...

I wonder how many of the base players have VR gear -- In a niche market, making a game work with Niche hardware is not a good business case.

I have VR (HTC Vive) and use it a lot for flght simming - about the same amount of time I fly in 2D. Current VR hardware isn't up to speed for where the masses want it when it comes to clarity and resolution. Also there are different standards - Any small company that is in a niche market would be wise to wait for further market penetration of VR before devoting substaintial effort toward it.

That being said - totally within your prerogitive to choose not to purchase any more for this particular game. I sincerely hope you find some other entertainment diversion to your liking/

Off the subject but how can purchasing any entertainment software be considered an "investment"?
MugHug Jul 2 @ 2:48pm 
Virtual Reality (VR) - Statistics & Facts
https://www.statista.com/topics/2532/virtual-reality-vr/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paullamkin/2017/09/29/vr-and-ar-headsets-to-hit-80-million-by-2021/#2bd763a324bc

Being blind in one eye, I imagine I will never use or benefit from VR to make it worth the cost (i.e. not a fanboy of VR), but at the same time it is clear that VR popularity is growing. Even Valve have dedicated a fair section of the Steam store to VR related games and hardware.

Many of my existing games and sims can take advantage of VR so it seems a fair question by the OP. It just seems to be a natural progression in gaming, but at the same time it does seem certain developers/publishers are being stick-in-the muds over embracing it. Saw the same arguments with TrackIR.

Just saying.
Last edited by MugHug; Jul 2 @ 2:59pm
Terry Jul 2 @ 5:57pm 
Originally posted by AtomicWoodchuck:
DTG have as much interest in embracing emergent technology as I have in embracing Donald Trump's crusty hiney

Originally posted by DTG_Luke:
@AtomicWoodchuck, keep it clean

Isn't that a lot to ask of one man?
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