Evil Defenders

Evil Defenders

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VeluXe Feb 11, 2016 @ 5:26am
Achievements - Balancing
Dear developers,

your game is quiet polished and otherwise satisfying. Except your achievements.
Let me explain it to you in detail:

When a player finishes a game (a playthrough) and unlocked/played/won everything in it, it would be constumary that he achieved on his journey allmost all achievements, except some who need a special skill/timing/combination.

The content of the game has ended... there is nothing new anymore, the only thing left to do is to complete the challenges (achievements).

You made a very basic mistake in regard to achievements. Your content has ended, but there are still "normal" game achievements left. This is causing people to grind, and therefore disliking your game. Look at my example please:

I have finished the game on every difficulty and game mode:

- Destroyer 40.700/100.000 kills
- Annihilator 40.700/150.000 kills
- Fort Knox 618.000/1.000.000 gold

- Merchant 43/50 towers

- Firewall
- Stingy
- Boo!

The first three achievements I missed by finishing the game are "normal" playthrough achievements.
The other 3 are challenges. And merchant is one normal achievement I just missed but can easily achieve at any given time.

If you do the math (10 hours of playtime for 40.000 kills) it would mean that I need to play an additional 24 hours without any new content!

There is an unwritten rule about grind achievements: "Never force people to grind more than 1.5 - 2 playthroughs. Especially when your game is quiet long (everything above 5 hours playthrough time)"

Given the length of your game, I would highly recommend the achievement table as follow's:

Max kill achievemnt at 60.000
max gold achievement at 750.000

Regards

PS: I am doing consulting for game developers in the area of testing and game experience.
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Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
acer243 Feb 12, 2016 @ 6:07am 
Good advice
utucuro Feb 14, 2016 @ 5:46am 
That's one post-load of good & free advice right there
Binary Ninja Mar 17, 2016 @ 6:37pm 
I just finished the game and I'm in the same situation. Guess I won't 100% the achievements on this game.
General_Escor Mar 19, 2016 @ 3:39am 
So I'm done here with all achivement exept monster killing and gold collecting. I spend 26 hours and now have 51 430 killed /150 000 needed and 745 000 gold / 1 000 000 needed. It looks like I need to spend another 52 hours to get 150 k kills. Cool!!!
General_Escor Mar 19, 2016 @ 3:40am 
60 000 kills and 800 000 gold will be enought I think
Last edited by General_Escor; Mar 19, 2016 @ 3:40am
Top-SecreT May 19, 2016 @ 11:44am 
+1 pls devs follow this advice. this isn't any fun and let me hate this game because i'm an achievement hunter and this is only grind grind grind in this game.
nyd May 27, 2016 @ 4:46pm 
Don't bother. The game devs stopped caring a long time ago. There have been similar threads and requests all over this forum. They probably never read any of it.
VeluXe Jun 26, 2016 @ 12:34pm 
Your insults show your mindset and charakter. Still, if you want to know, which I assume you tried to achieve by your post, why I wrote about achievement balancing, here it is:
There are psychological studies about reward systems. Ingame achievements are such awards. They work in the same way for your mind, as winning a game as a child and getting some sweets afterwards. Not being rewarded, after doing everything, and only a little bit extra, is frustrating for most players. Otherwise the game which should be fun and a distraction has become boring and annoying (grind).

Such players a likely to write bad resumés about your game after wasting hours to fullfill there need and get their "fix" of feeling. And they will certainly not play the game afterwards anymore or buy games by your company.
So if you are trying to achieve a stable fanbase or at least many good reviews, you should try to satisfy those people properly.
From my own experience and some querries I and my last company did, I can tell you that achievement hunters are reading reviews very carefully, because they hate to buy games with broken achievements or crazy grind achievements.

Games are not based on achievements. But there is a certain group of gamers, who like to reward themselfs by completing all achievements. Those players which are not a small percentage, do not think a game is enjoyable if you dont fullfill the requierements I have mentioned before.

You can call those players (achievement hunters) crazy or stupid. Some people do not understand their logic. But it is very simple psychology. And who are we to take their fun away or call them names? Thats the way they have chosen to have fun.

And yes, I do believe if you want to create a successfull company in this sector, you should take this into account. Especially if you create an achievement system to attract such customers.

On a personal note: I hope I could help you understand. I know I cant change your mind, or make you respect other people or oppinions, but I would like to ask you kindly to behave yourself more appropriate, even behind the vail of annonimity.

and PS: Because of a personal attack, I will unsubscribe to this discussion, so I wont feed the trolls. Have fun gaming@all
Thiago PLD Feb 14, 2017 @ 5:36pm 
Originally posted by VeluXe:
Dear developers,

your game is quiet polished and otherwise satisfying. Except your achievements.
Let me explain it to you in detail:

When a player finishes a game (a playthrough) and unlocked/played/won everything in it, it would be constumary that he achieved on his journey allmost all achievements, except some who need a special skill/timing/combination.

The content of the game has ended... there is nothing new anymore, the only thing left to do is to complete the challenges (achievements).

You made a very basic mistake in regard to achievements. Your content has ended, but there are still "normal" game achievements left. This is causing people to grind, and therefore disliking your game. Look at my example please:

I have finished the game on every difficulty and game mode:

- Destroyer 40.700/100.000 kills
- Annihilator 40.700/150.000 kills
- Fort Knox 618.000/1.000.000 gold

- Merchant 43/50 towers

- Firewall
- Stingy
- Boo!

The first three achievements I missed by finishing the game are "normal" playthrough achievements.
The other 3 are challenges. And merchant is one normal achievement I just missed but can easily achieve at any given time.

If you do the math (10 hours of playtime for 40.000 kills) it would mean that I need to play an additional 24 hours without any new content!

There is an unwritten rule about grind achievements: "Never force people to grind more than 1.5 - 2 playthroughs. Especially when your game is quiet long (everything above 5 hours playthrough time)"

Given the length of your game, I would highly recommend the achievement table as follow's:

Max kill achievemnt at 60.000
max gold achievement at 750.000

Regards

PS: I am doing consulting for game developers in the area of testing and game experience.


Same situation
Youre correct
thegrassyknoll May 18, 2017 @ 8:02pm 
Hey Veluxe,

I guess i am "crazy" and "stupid" since i like to complete all reasonable achievements for games. Dont worry, i aint some kind of punk troll hiding behind the anomynous veil that is the internet. Just careful what ya say :)

That being said, i totally agree that standard issue and early playtesting should have revealed that the 150000 kills achievement is very grindy and asking quite a bit too much. Ultimately the devs made an error in judgement.

Here is the sad solution i came up with..........sad sad. but i did it........This was a year ago, so my below numbers may be a little off, but that level stage i mention is for sure the best.

I picked the level somewhere in the middle of game that has roughly 1200-1500 enemies. Its the one where giant knights come out of door half way into your lines at regular intervals as well as 2 regular spawn points. This level seemed to have the most kills. ( i tried the last few levels and got less kills for more time passed) And requires zero managing after about 2 minutes and 6 or so waves. You get roughly 1400 kills for 15-20 minutes. So i would start that level, play for 2 minutes, build up defense, fast forward to max speed and go do laundry/lift weights/get a coffee/leave house for errand or 2 etc. etc.--Come check at a later time, be a little closer, rinse and repeat. Not all at once mind you. Did this over a month span. Sometimes 5 times in a row, sometimes not at all for a few days or week.

Sad i know, but if this saves anyone time to get their "fix" as you put it, there ya go.
VeluXe May 18, 2017 @ 10:00pm 
I did the same thing. I am playing computer games for over twenty years now, and did some minor developing work myself. I agree with you, there is allways a way to "grind" in the most efficient manner, but that is hardly fun. The level you mentioned is by far the most efficient one. I even did the math for the best maps.

I can even understand the developers side, they allready changed their achievement from a million kills. So why should they change it again?

I have to say that the game was good, but the grind at the end, broke my enjoyment. I believe I am not alone with this judgement, and all I wanted to do is help.

So, keep on playing and having fun at all. :)

PS: The troll post I mentioned above is since gone. Should have used the quote function, not it stand akwardly alone.
Last edited by VeluXe; May 18, 2017 @ 10:01pm
Spooner Sep 2, 2017 @ 3:34am 
+1
evil_paris Jan 11, 2018 @ 7:12am 
Very much agree with this. I hate that there is no quality control on Steam achievements. The sheer unrewarding grind required by the last two kill achievements leaves the play experience with this title feeling unsatisfying when you are done. While the game was enjoyable, the achievements are a blight, and leave an easily correctable negative aftertaste.

It is a shame because it would have been so easy to fix too.
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