Rancid eggs and a design question (spoiler?)

[davetrowe]

So I'd say about 90% of people had to find out what rancid eggs do online, usually after a situation in which it would have helped them had passed.

I think that's because 3 things need to happen to discover what they do on your own:
1) you need to have the door unlocked in dirtmouth
2) you need rancid eggs
3) you need to have a shade floating around somewhere in the world

of these, the third is probably the reason it's hard to determine what this NPC does without looking it up. Not many people are going to leave a shade floating around without going for back for it, go to dirtmouth instead, and on a whim, in that state, go to a mystery purpose NPC far from everything else in town.

I believe this results in a situation where, isolated, most people are not going to figure out what purpose rancid eggs have in the game.

The NPC dialogue doesn't help too much either, describing the situation as "having regrets".

I get that maybe this is designed to encourage discourse between players, exchanging information (a la Zelda 1, Tower of Druaga or Dark Souls), but I'm wondering if there would be a better way to approach it to make it more transparent to new players, who will most likely be the players who will need this NPC the most, the most likely to not know what she does until that need has passed, and also the least likely to be looking around for information online for fear of being spoiled of stuff.

What do you guys think would be a good solution/approach? Or is it fine as it is?

tl:dr; the most useful service to new players is also the least likely for new players to figure out

edit: aint attacking the game, I love it. It's been my favourite this year, and one of my top ever, but I want it to be as enjoyable by as many people as possible, and feel this (and the purple mushroom stuff listed below) are kinda the only spots that might turn off some players.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by davetrowe:

So I'd say about 90% of people had to find out what rancid eggs do online, usually after a situation in which it would have helped them had passed.

If that is the case, then it's normal because 90% of the population is braindead anyway. The times we live in seem to only allow for a very miniscule number of education enthusiasts while the rest gather their knowledge from their twitter feeds.

The shop merchant sells both the Simple Key and the Rancid Egg required for a player to figure out the concept. Only players who fail to sufficiently explore their environment will have missed out on the lock door in Dirtmouth that conspicuously requires some kind of key. A key that one of the first NPCs you meet just so happens to sell. Along with the food item that just so happens to be required with it at a steal of a price of 60 geo. I dare say most people had the egg before the key.

Once you obtain both items and have unlocked the door, the NPC clearly explains the purpose of the egg. I don't think it needs a change at all. Perhaps a sign to point out the obvious locked door for those who would otherwise miss it.

Personally I unlocked shade teleportation before even clearing the Fungal Wastes.

[davetrowe]

Originally posted by Kyutaru:

Originally posted by davetrowe:

So I'd say about 90% of people had to find out what rancid eggs do online, usually after a situation in which it would have helped them had passed.

If that is the case, then it's normal because 90% of the population is braindead anyway. The times we live in seem to only allow for a very miniscule number of education enthusiasts while the rest gather their knowledge from their twitter feeds.

The shop merchant sells both the Simple Key and the Rancid Egg required for a player to figure out the concept. Only players who fail to sufficiently explore their environment will have missed out on the lock door in Dirtmouth that conspicuously requires some kind of key. A key that one of the first NPCs you meet just so happens to sell. Along with the food item that just so happens to be required with it at a steal of a price of 60 geo. I dare say most people had the egg before the key.

Personally I unlocked shade teleportation before even clearing the Fungal Wastes.

It's not as much "not having the eggs", it's more "not knowing how to use them."

After I finished the game the first time, I watched a bunch of LP's, and almost every one of them was like "what are these eggs for?" long, long into the game, like, post- ancient basin even.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by davetrowe:

It's not as much "not having the eggs", it's more "not knowing how to use them."

After I finished the game the first time, I watched a bunch of LP's, and almost every one of them was like "what are these eggs for?" long, long into the game, like, post- ancient basin even.

I don't see how that's the case since the eggs are clearly explained by the NPC. So if you haven't VISITED the NPC then clearly you don't know what the eggs are for. That comes down to the question: why haven't you visited the NPC yet? The number one answer: you completely missed the locked door or failed to remember it when asking the same question of "what is this simple key for?".

That seems to be a lack of exploration rather than the game's fault. People can't even use the simple key until the City and if you waited that long before exploring Dirtmouth... well, you pay the penalty.

On the bright side, your speed runs will be backed by full knowledge of this easter egg.

[davetrowe]

Originally posted by Kyutaru:

Originally posted by davetrowe:

It's not as much "not having the eggs", it's more "not knowing how to use them."

After I finished the game the first time, I watched a bunch of LP's, and almost every one of them was like "what are these eggs for?" long, long into the game, like, post- ancient basin even.

I don't see how that's the case since the eggs are clearly explained by the NPC. So if you haven't VISITED the NPC then clearly you don't know what the eggs are for. That comes down to the question: why haven't you visited the NPC yet? The number one answer: you completely missed the locked door or failed to remember it when asking the same question of "what is this simple key for?".

That seems to be a lack of exploration rather than the game's fault. People can't even use the simply key until the City and if you waited that long before exploring Dirtmouth... well, you pay the penalty.

It might be more the language the NPC uses. I remember not connecting "oh, she wants food" with "I have some rotten stuff", also not connecting "regrets" with "I want my geo back". I figured, like DS, I would use them to absolve myself of killing NPC's or something.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by davetrowe:

It might be more the language the NPC uses. I remember not connecting "oh, she wants food" with "I have some rotten stuff", also not connecting "regrets" with "I want my geo back". I figured, like DS, I would use them to absolve myself of killing NPC's or something.

As I said though, given the prices, people generally have the egg before the key. If not, they find one accidentally and are apprised of its value on the next visit. So when you talk to the NPC, he doesn't say "I want food", he says "ooo give me that egg!".

The regrets thing is another matter. I immediately connected the two but that might just be because it was the only thing that made sense within the game mechanics.

[davetrowe]

Originally posted by Kyutaru:

Originally posted by davetrowe:

It might be more the language the NPC uses. I remember not connecting "oh, she wants food" with "I have some rotten stuff", also not connecting "regrets" with "I want my geo back". I figured, like DS, I would use them to absolve myself of killing NPC's or something.

As I said though, given the prices, people generally have the egg before the key. If not, they find one accidentally and are apprised of its value on the next visit. So when you talk to the NPC, he doesn't say "I want food", he says "ooo give me that egg!".

The regrets thing is another matter. I immediately connected the two but that might just be because it was the only thing that made sense within the game mechanics.

True, I just feel that (and I love everything else in the game design) this specific thing could be signposted a little more clearly because it really only benefits players who are new to the game, and the least likely to make these connections/discover this use.

Later on, you are drowning in Geo, and losing a few thousand is no biggie, but when you are just starting, it can feel like a monumental loss, and you probably won't know about the rancid egg system until it's too late.

I suppose you could argue "Well, players should lose their geo a few times", and maybe that's fair too, but I never had to use this NPC, and you are given so many rancid eggs (I think I have like, 13?) that it almost seems like they are meant to be a core mechanic, rather than a saving grace (otherwise, you should probably get like, 2 or 3 easily, rather than 10+)

Mind you, these views are just from watching a lot of LP's of the game. The other thing i saw a lot of new players faltering on were the purple mushrooms, and how you have to down attack on them, which I don't think the game makes you do at all until that point, and a lot of players didn't seem to even know about that move at all, instead trying to jump on them with the jump button, but that's not nearly as obfuscated as the rancid egg system.

[Dels]

Is there really any point in debating with a guy who started off his argument (about a videogame) by calling 90% of the population braindead and uneducated...? In relation to not knowing about a mechanic in a game?

I think you're right. I had no idea what the rancid eggs did until I came here. I never used that NPC because I always just went and killed my spirit myself, never had any issues with that. Spent the whole game wondering when I was gonna find a purpose for my eggs... It ends up being a bit dissapointing. I think the NPC could mention it from the beginning.

And you are right about the down-attack as well. I had no idea I could do it on mushrooms until I reached the room where you absolutely must use it to proceed, and realized that clearly I could do something to get through that room. And even then, I only realized later that I could use it on the armored enemies to get around. I think the way to teach the player this in an intuitive way is to simply include a room early on where you have to use this to move forward, that way the player is made aware that it is an option.

[davetrowe]

Yea, I dunno, I love this game, absolutely, but my day job is doing game design, ha ha, and those two issues sorta... felt out of place to me?

Like, a lot of the game is cryptic and obfuscated, and that's fine, but those two instances felt "off" to me in that they did not serve the general game design so much as served as stopping points for new players with no proper way for a new player to figure them out.

[Dels]

Flash back to Super Metroid, when players didn't know there was a run button...

(I was guilty of that as well)

[davetrowe]

YEP. That bridge, that's the only part of super metroid that I felt could have used some design refinement work as well.

As for the purple mushrooms, I think the major problem with them is that you might assume you need an item to deal with them, and then wander away, and there are enough open routes at that point to get you kinda stuck trying to do things you shouldn't yet.

[Tall Dark and Gruesome]

I think the whole rotten egg thing could be addressed by either a tootip update on the egg to reflect you could trade them for an important service or by a slight text tweak on jiji.

As for down slash movement, yeah,.. I figured out bounce jumping fast, but im bad at it, and figuring out what spikes the game wants to let you bounce off of and which are fatal is not communicated well by art design imo.

[davetrowe]

I feel like the downslash and mushroom thing could have a floor with breakable wood above the first mushrooms, meaning you'd need to learn the move, and then the mushrooms are right there to let you make the connection.

[Wincent, The Hollow Knight]

Originally posted by davetrowe:

Originally posted by Kyutaru:

As I said though, given the prices, people generally have the egg before the key. If not, they find one accidentally and are apprised of its value on the next visit. So when you talk to the NPC, he doesn't say "I want food", he says "ooo give me that egg!".

The regrets thing is another matter. I immediately connected the two but that might just be because it was the only thing that made sense within the game mechanics.

True, I just feel that (and I love everything else in the game design) this specific thing could be signposted a little more clearly because it really only benefits players who are new to the game, and the least likely to make these connections/discover this use.

Later on, you are drowning in Geo, and losing a few thousand is no biggie, but when you are just starting, it can feel like a monumental loss, and you probably won't know about the rancid egg system until it's too late.

I suppose you could argue "Well, players should lose their geo a few times", and maybe that's fair too, but I never had to use this NPC, and you are given so many rancid eggs (I think I have like, 13?) that it almost seems like they are meant to be a core mechanic, rather than a saving grace (otherwise, you should probably get like, 2 or 3 easily, rather than 10+)

Mind you, these views are just from watching a lot of LP's of the game. The other thing i saw a lot of new players faltering on were the purple mushrooms, and how you have to down attack on them, which I don't think the game makes you do at all until that point, and a lot of players didn't seem to even know about that move at all, instead trying to jump on them with the jump button, but that's not nearly as obfuscated as the rancid egg system.

Used "her" once. :)

I had died somewhere around deepnest I think it was and realised "♥♥♥♥ I didn't use a bench!"

I spawned right there in dirtmouth so I really had no choice xD

[davetrowe]

I don't think i ever actually used her, ha ha, but I did show a friend how to use her, as she died, and her shade spawned like, off the map somewhere, so the only way to get her geo back was to use the npc.

[Mana]

I never went to her with shade floating about because I had no reason to randomly abandon my shade and tons of geo to go to the starting town. So she never explained it and never reacted to the eggs, only saying I don't have regrets. So no, this is not obvious in any manner, to whomever has claimed so.