Heroes of Normandie

Heroes of Normandie

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visualrob  [developer] Oct 4, 2015 @ 4:36am
ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS
Hi guys,

we are receiving a lot of feedback from the community: much of it is positive and we're happy about it. Some of it is negative, and we are trying to listen and respond to whatever we can, in order to improve the game.

One point that is generating negative feedback concerns the dice. This is a game with a strong presence of randomness, and it requires a lot of risk management strategy, in order to minimize the luck factor. That's the nature of the board game, and it's understandably not everyone's cup of tea.

But many negative reviews (and some of the discussions here) are mainly saying a different thing: "THE DICE ARE LOADED". Usually with a bit more of color.

We talked a lot about this in this thread, but let me clarify it again here, in bold. The. Dice. Are. Not. Rigged. The A.I uses exactly the same random generator as the player, and it's programmed to not even use any veterans (that would legitimately allow reroll) and ammos (that would legitimately allow a +1 on the dice).

This post is not meant to convince anyone about this. We know it's true, and it's easy to prove it: it's sufficient to log carefully the first 100 dice rolls for you and the AI, and looking at the results. Not SOME of the rolls, not A FEW rolls. 100 consecutive rolls for each side. If someone wants to spend a weekend doing this job, he's welcome to find out that the A.I. does not cheat.

The point is that many players have the impression that the A.I. cheats, due a mix of the human tendency to find patterns everywhere, to only look at the dice when things go bad, and to mistrust the machine. This is affecting negatively the player experience, so we'd like to solve this thing immediately.

This is the strategy we came up with:

1) We will create different difficulty levels. The hardest level will be the current one. The lower settings will grant you additional gear (ammos and veterans), that will allow you to reroll the dice N times, and/or to give a +1 to your roll N times. These are normal elements of the game, we're just going to give the player some of them in every single-player scenario.

We hope that making things easier for newcomers will make them less paranoid about the dice. When they'll get a better understanding of the game mechanics, they'll raise the bar by switching to a different difficulty level, without frustration kicking in.

We will, of course, ensure that completing a mission with a higher difficulty level grants you more points.

2) We will insert a logger that you can consult during the dice rolls. The logger will keep track of the last 1000 dice throws in the game for both the player and the A.I., and give appropriate statistics about it. This will show that the game is indeed fair, especially if you help us showing to the public your statistics once they get significant.

3) We will introduce an "anti-streak randomness" option, turned off by default. This will ensure that there will be no streaks and other things that would naturally occur with true randomness.

But we'd really like to hear the opinion of the community on this.

Would you welcome this kind of "anti-streak randomness" in the game? Do you have any other suggestions on how to handle the dice rolls? The debate is open.

We love this game: we put a lot of time and energy into it, and we plan to support it for a long time, adding new features and content, fixing the existing issues, and trying to create a thriving community around it. Help us to make it succeed.
Last edited by visualrob; Oct 4, 2015 @ 2:42pm
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Showing 1-15 of 31 comments
NietzschesDawn Oct 4, 2015 @ 5:32am 
I was just having this discussion with a friend of mine over breakfast yesterday, and we came down on two sides - he, never having played the board game, feels as though the AI cheats, whereas I, an avid player ofthe board game, feel as though it plays just the same (minus a few graphical glitches I'm sure you'll iron out). I think your suggestions are great ideas to help ease new players in to the mindset needed to play Heroes of Normandie well.

I'm curious whether or not those accusing the AI of 'cheating' have a lot of playtime with the boardgame version?
brian freeze Oct 4, 2015 @ 6:59am 
People are getting way too upset over rolls and missing how much excitement they can add and how this is based on a boardgame after all that has all the elements of rolling.

It's frustrating when I roll 5 1's in a row but that's not a bad thing. I like that sometimes everything goes wrong. Conversely when I've had a lot of bad rolls and I attack a tank in a desperate situation needing a 6 to hit it becomes much more exciting when I miraculously make the roll.

Having realistic rolling like it is now leads to a lot of "wow" moments which is kinda what the whole point of HoN is, these hollywood war movie moments of epic sucess or failure. A lot of players I've seen complaining are people who look at this as purely a computer game first and ignore the fact that this is a faithful recreation of a boardgame. There really is an incaccurate expectation that the game cheats in the player's favour like it does in other games.

If it isn't difficult to implement the changes talked about in the post and they will be toggleable then go for it. It will make the game more accessible to players who will only continue to complain otherwise because they expect this game to be something it's not. Really like the idea of the logger though as a sort of cheeky way of being able to prove complainers wrong.

@NietzschesDawn, I have let some people in my normal playgroup play this game and they all have said the same thing that's it is a faithful recreation. When I asked non-boardgame players to try it there was a lot of complaining whenever they saw 'bad' rolls. Definitely a case where my anecdotal evidence shows the same thing you saw

Mr W Oct 4, 2015 @ 7:21am 
I would not use the anti-streak option and I think there should be an even harder option to allow the AI to use veterans and ammo.
bardosy[HUN] Oct 4, 2015 @ 7:33am 
"anti-streak" means if the random drop the same number as previous, the it roll again and again until the result is deifferent from the previous one?
bardosy[HUN] Oct 4, 2015 @ 7:47am 
Someone in the other topic talk abou this generation who play videogames and not boardgames, and videogames always cheat a little bit to the player, what the devs call "balance in fun factor". And it's very true. But with a human player, we could accept easily to beat us with rolls (but probably my brother was cheating in my childhood, because he always roll six :) ).
visualrob  [developer] Oct 4, 2015 @ 7:55am 
@bardosy[HUN]: yes, something like that. "Anti-streak" randomness will generate dice rolls that appear more fair by increasing your probability to roll a N if you didn't roll N for a long time, and by avoiding (long) streaks of the same number. Basically, by doing what humans "perceive" is random, instead of doing what is truly random.

Of course, this implies that the dice will become much more predictable. That's why I don't particularly like this solution, but if that's what it takes to stop complaints...
bardosy[HUN] Oct 4, 2015 @ 8:06am 
We had a teacher, who gave us a homework to drop a coin for 10 tousands and write the result. Droping a coin and write it down (specially 10tousend times) is a very long time, so most of us, just write down 10 tousand heads and tails randomly.
The teacher check the homeworks by take a few second look and told: "you cheat", "you did well". Because human never can be random.
So I really know what are you talking about. I just respect your attention to players. Most devs ignore when players complaints about stupid thing.
Uncle_Joe Oct 4, 2015 @ 8:34am 
Originally posted by Mr W:
I would not use the anti-streak option and I think there should be an even harder option to allow the AI to use veterans and ammo.

I agree with this completely. I would never use any form of dice modification and I really do think there should be an option to allow the AI to use the same game mechanics available to the player.
tinyrodent Oct 4, 2015 @ 9:02am 
There may be another factor contributing to this impression of "loaded dice". I haven't played a lot yet and it's difficult to be sure because the AI turn details disappear before I can look at them closely.

However I'm fairly sure that some of the time, it's showing that an AI die roll of let's say 3 or better will result in a hit. The AI rolls, and gets a 1 or 2 - which should be a miss - but my unit gets hit anyway.
visualrob  [developer] Oct 4, 2015 @ 9:12am 
There may be another factor contributing to this impression of "loaded dice". I haven't played a lot yet and it's difficult to be sure because the AI turn details disappear before I can look at them closely.

However I'm fairly sure that some of the time, it's showing that an AI die roll of let's say 3 or better will result in a hit. The AI rolls, and gets a 1 or 2 - which should be a miss - but my unit gets hit anyway.

Thanks for adding this. I forgot about it: we will implement an option to stop the game after the computer throws the dice. The impossibility for new players to check with calm the results of the computer is very probably a contributing factor to the conspiracy theory.
visualrob  [developer] Oct 4, 2015 @ 9:13am 
Messaggio originale di Mr W:
I would not use the anti-streak option and I think there should be an even harder option to allow the AI to use veterans and ammo.

I agree with this completely. I would never use any form of dice modification and I really do think there should be an option to allow the AI to use the same game mechanics available to the player.

This is fun. Any other players who would like to see such an extra-difficult mode?
Dienes Oct 4, 2015 @ 9:31am 
-1 for anti-streak. Would also never use this, as this feels like cheating to me.

The AI using veteran/ammo on the other hands sounds very interesting :)
Mysterio Oct 4, 2015 @ 9:36am 
Originally posted by visualrob:
This is fun. Any other players who would like to see such an extra-difficult mode?

IMO, if you're going to make a digital adaptation of a board game, it should follow the rules of the board game verbatim, when technically possible. That's my main issue with The Witcher Adventure Game, for example.

If a developer insists on deviating from those rules to make the game more approachable to the average gamer, perhaps a set of options should be implemented to enable or disable True Mode versus Relaxed Mode (just terms I thought up!) rules. For example, as you said, the AI not using Veterans and Ammo could be disabled for True Mode and enabled for Relaxed Mode.
Xfu Oct 4, 2015 @ 11:03am 
I fell sorry for the developers, having to put up with people moaning about the unfairness of RNG dice in a dice game! Introducing and option to alow the human player to cheat by not having streaks works both ways: all bad rolls and all good rolls, but i guess people are so used to winning all the time, they blame the "rigged" dice. (passive or agressive can't remember which so I went with both)
devxx Oct 4, 2015 @ 1:36pm 
We will create different difficulty levels
MERRY FREAKING CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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