Battle Brothers

Battle Brothers

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Horoai Apr 10, 2017 @ 4:32am
Bows vs Crossbows damage comparison (in depth)
x = Armor value of target
f(x) = Total health damage

Basic setup with crossbow mastery. 1 Quick shot vs bolt shot vs 2 quick shots:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=902174931

Same graph if target has battle forged:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=902381643

[Requested] Same graph but counting 4 quick shots vs 2 bolt shots:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=902399187

2 quick shots vs 1 bolt shot using Berserk and Killing Frenzy. Berserk triggered shot is counted towards a new target with same armor:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=902398893

Same scenario but added Executioner. Executioner only triggers on 2 shot to same target and only if 1st shot dealt at least 10 damage (that's where the graph breaks):
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=902406849


------ References ------------
Damage was calculated according to this post. I also accounted for the fact that subsequent shots to the same target hit less and less remaining armor each time.
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---------- Conclusion ---------
It obviously looks a bit different across multiple turns if you allow crossbow to procc some of the perks as well. However, that is a highly complex scenario and it's hard to make any definitive statements at that point (someone else might snitch your kill, different strategies and targeting priorities on a shifting battlefield, etc...).
Keep in mind that crossbows also only benefit in their damage from berserk once per battle.

Judging from these insights I think crossbows aren't actually that much weaker than bows when it comes to raw damage per se. However there are a few factors here that break them apart:
1) Bow's quick shots scale extremely well with high ranged skill. If you can consistently hit both every turn your dps will skyrocket.
2) Crossbows scale very poorly with perks. Most bonus damage perks only work with limited synergy with their attack style whereas they fit the bow perfectly.
3) In my experience, many times it comes down to targets being killed in 2 attacks from both weapons. The crossbow deals more damage on that first hit but requires a second most of the time nethertheless. This can be somewhat circumvented with head hunter but the general result obviously favours the weapon which delievers it's 2 hits faster.
4) The vast majority of enemies resides below the 250 armor durability mark where bow damage falls apart. Crossbows have an advantage here but it rarely comes into play.
Last edited by Horoai; Apr 10, 2017 @ 4:35am
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Showing 1-15 of 15 comments
MYSTIC Apr 10, 2017 @ 4:56am 
Lovely :steamhappy:
Too bad some of the heaviest enemies we face, hedge knights and ancient honor guards, are immune to injuries!
Last edited by MYSTIC; Apr 10, 2017 @ 4:56am
Horoai Apr 10, 2017 @ 4:59am 
Wait a minute... hedge knights have Hold Out!? Way to softball it in :D

The more you know...
Goodnight Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:00am 
Lol. With my bad memory I'll never remember all stuff. Hedgeknights with hold out :P
At least with undead it's easy to remember.

--
Q. Why do the graph lines bend at 40-80 armor? in the first graph.
edit: Oh wait, that might be when the armor is fully removed, and voila 100% pierce.

Aimed shot is skipped? Is that always in favour of crossbows? - The simplistic way I look at bows and xbows is that aimed shot and xbow shot are very similar in terms of accuracy, bow gets the benefit of double fire as an option. I know that the difference in armor penetration makes a difference, which is why I'm looking at the graphs.

Also it's good to know at which point bows/crossbows will start dealing "injuries" and how many shots to kill most enemies going by these armor values.
Last edited by Goodnight; Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:12am
djxput Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:10am 
Thanks for this! - I know its hard to include perk damage since bow perk is different then xbox perk. But could you do a graph showing the xbow perk in use. Thanks
Sathra Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:10am 
Its not that important to remember. Hedgies are still affected by allies dying around them (but less than bandits due to better resolve).
Wait...I'm pretty sure I've seen a bandit hedge knight with knee injury move slower. In one of the recent pre-release builds.
Goodnight Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:14am 
If he took an arrow to the knee he was probably instantly relegated from hedge knight to town guard status. Honestly, I have no idea :D

So looking at quadra bow. Double bowshots get more powerful in comparison to single xbow shots the more times an opponent gets hit by them?
Last edited by Goodnight; Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:21am
Sathra Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:15am 
Its more important that they've got battleforged. Makes the Plate armoured ones very tough.
Y'know, if it wasn't that a Hedge Knight in plate is basically flashing a sign saying "Dagger me!"
Sathra Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:18am 
Oh right. The graphs bend at 40 and 80 because those are the armour values that can be destroyed in a single instance. 2 quick shots = double armour damage.
Aimed shot only increases HP damage by 10%, but not armour damage. So roughly the same damage-wise, its the extra range and accuracy that's the benefit.
Last edited by Sathra; Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:18am
Goodnight Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:24am 
Right, of course, there's minimal damage difference with aimed shot, it's basically the same as single shot on these graphs. So yeah what this says to me is if I'm thinking of taking bows and then I'm going to do pure aimed shots at <=6 tiles anyway... don't. Use a crossbow instead until like at least 65-70+ in ranged skill. Basically aimed shot sucks if you can use a crossbow instead (since the accuracy is the same, xbows gets +15 and -3 per tile vs aimed shot +10 and -2 per tile).
Last edited by Goodnight; Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:27am
live in da h00d Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:24am 
I just wish I could have ANY witchhunter with ranged stars. They ALWAYS tend to suck for me.

They're like.. the crossbow background of the game, right? :D
MYSTIC Apr 10, 2017 @ 5:29am 
Originally posted by Sathra:
Its not that important to remember. Hedgies are still affected by allies dying around them (but less than bandits due to better resolve).
Wait...I'm pretty sure I've seen a bandit hedge knight with knee injury move slower. In one of the recent pre-release builds.
I could be wrong. Maybe they don't have hold out.
Goodnight Apr 10, 2017 @ 6:01am 
Hmm, probably unique bows vs unique xbows stretches this out farther in bows favour. I'm curious about six shots with bow vs three shots with xbow and respectable archer / xbow perks.
Horoai Apr 10, 2017 @ 6:20am 
Originally posted by Dragondave17:
Hmm, probably unique bows vs unique xbows stretches this out farther in bows favour. I'm curious about six shots with bow vs three shots with xbow and respectable archer / xbow perks.
Do you mean against the same target? Which perks exactly?
Last edited by Horoai; Apr 10, 2017 @ 6:20am
MYSTIC Apr 10, 2017 @ 7:37am 
Off topic, but now I think about it, maybe it's not bandit hedge knights that have hold out, it's mercenary heavies (still called mercanery but they wear coat of plates, etc.). They usually have a weird selection of perks. I remember a shanking that went less than smoothly due to the shankee's seeming inability to take injuries. I panicked after he killed one brother, and started to attack him with everyone besides dagger users. We failed to acquire that stubborn mercenary's coat of plates as a result.

Sorry for causing this confusion.
Lampros May 27, 2017 @ 1:12pm 
Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
Keep in mind that crossbows also only benefit in their damage from berserk once per battle...

Judging from these insights I think crossbows aren't actually that much weaker than bows when it comes to raw damage per se. However there are a few factors here that break them apart:

1) Bow's quick shots scale extremely well with high ranged skill. If you can consistently hit both every turn your dps will skyrocket.

2) Crossbows scale very poorly with perks. Most bonus damage perks only work with limited synergy with their attack style whereas they fit the bow perfectly.

3) In my experience, many times it comes down to targets being killed in 2 attacks from both weapons. The crossbow deals more damage on that first hit but requires a second most of the time nethertheless. This can be somewhat circumvented with head hunter but the general result obviously favours the weapon which delievers it's 2 hits faster.

4) The vast majority of enemies resides below the 250 armor durability mark where bow damage falls apart. Crossbows have an advantage here but it rarely comes into play.

I just noticed that Berserk was a wasted Perk with Crossbow today. I think it would make a lot more sense for crossbows can be made to shoot twice per turn if Berserk is applied.

Also, absent a change, this is why I think crossbowmen must be made into a hybrid, as 1) at end-game damage will lag, and you will have to compensate for the damage deficit with utility; and you have a lot of left-over Perks anyways, since a lot of archer Perks do not apply anyways (e.g. Berserk).
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Date Posted: Apr 10, 2017 @ 4:32am
Posts: 15