FEEDBACK PLS: New Soul Chip Spending-points

[batterystaplegames]

Hello!

Today, we'd love some community feedback about ingame progression. We know we've been down this road before, but we're considering journeying down it one more time, and we'd love your feedback/thoughts before doing so.

Traditionally, 20XX does a fantastic job of snaring folks that "get it" from the get go, but is pretty punishing for folks who don't, and the game doesn't throw them much of a bone to keep them playing long enough to get good. We'd like to address that.

Before we talk about what we're thinking about doing, here are our goals (in rough order of importance, descending):

• Do absolutely nothing whatsoever that impacts high level play (Defiant, Challenges) in any way
  
• Enhance the new player experience by giving them something to really visibly earn in between 20XX plays, instead of just item unlocks (which, once you die after the unlock, just go to the pool, offering no "instant" benefit)
  
• Balance the incoming quite-difficult Endgame content with something on the front-end to keep difficulty mostly the same (for Normal/Casual)
  
• Further diversify what players can spend SC on

To that end, we're considering adding two things to the Soul Shop -- the first because we think the game could use it, and the second because it's a super popular community suggestion.

First, an additional branch of the shop that unlocks a small number of permanent upgrades that only apply in Normal and Casual play. They'll having a scaling price range so the first few are easily affordable by new players, but the last ones require the player to at least reach level 7-8 before they become affordable. We're thinking the following upgrades, roughly in order of acquisition:

• +2 HP
  
• +2 NRG
  
• Unlocks Dally, a buddy that'll show up at the start of Level 2 to throw you some much needed supplies
  
• Start w/ Primary Weapon chest in level 1
  
• Dally upgrade (also shows up on level 4 to hook you up with better pickups)
  
• +2 HP (again, total of 12 starting HP with both unlocked)
  
• Dally upgrade (also shows up on level 6 with a free minor/moderate Aug)
  
• +2 NRG (again, total of 12 starting NRG)
  
• Dally upgrade (also shows up on level 8 with a strong Aug)
  
• Start w/ Core Aug chest in level 1

This will definitely make the existing levels 1-8 substantially easier on Normal/Casual. We're not convinced that's a bad thing - keep in mind that when the Endgame hits, the game's going to get way more difficult to complete!

So, that's the first bit. Secondly, once all of these have been unlocked, the space will instead be taken by the Undeveloper, who (for a small fee) will remove items from the game pool for next run. We're thinking he'll offer 3 items at a time, and for 1 SC, that item won't spawn next run. There'll also be a machine next to him that, also for 1 SC, will remove the 3 items on offer and replace them with 3 other ones, so you can try to target items you really don't want (but may not succeed, hence the low price).

(We might also put the Undeveloper in the current Unlockable Soul Shop spot, instead.)

That's what we're thinking. We want to make the game easier to get into for new players, without impacting the veteran 20XX experience.

We'd love your thoughts! Thanks, folks.

[Teddy Deadrat]

I love all of this.

[Hekinsieden]

What if the Casual run mode had an opposite to the Skulls? Maybe "Supply Crates" or something? Instead of Challenge things they could be fun rules like (Enemies deal half damage) or (All starting stats are doubled). Then not only can new players soften where they are struggling, but moderate players can mess around with items and exparament easier in Casual.

[Tetsuo9999]

This is a good way to both ease new players into the game while also giving veterans some more variety in their non-challenge runs. The upgrades you've pitched won't break the game, and will make it more fun for everyone. As someone who's played this for over a hundred hours, having an item chest (armor or passive?) at the beginning sounds great! Being able to temporarily remove items from the pool is nice customization that won't break the game either. 20XX does a good job of making sure the pool isn't filled with trash items, but as more items have been added, the pool does get diluted and can make it harder to see what you really like to run with unless you play a bunch. There will be a lot more eyes on this game when it leaves early access, so this is a good way to make sure brand new players don't get frustrated and end up refunding before getting to the meat of it.

[Epicwindow+-]

e tank?

[Chiptune Classic (Twiner)]

I love the sound of these changes. I generally don't do the high end challenges because they are a little too difficult for my skill level.
However, I also usually play the casual mode so I can pick some starting mods.
These changes bring normal to where I'm capable of playing reliably. I can usually beat the game in casual.
Most of the time in normal I can get 4-6 levels deep.
This would give me a false sense of skill improvement, but thats okay :p

[Sangahyando]

Originally posted by Epicwindow+-:

e tank?

A simple, yet elegant solution. Such items saved me so much frustration in the inspirational games.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Sangahyando:

Originally posted by Epicwindow+-:

e tank?

A simple, yet elegant solution. Such items saved me so much frustration in the inspirational games.

Or a Subtank. Those can be refilled. If it worked like in Zero/ZX where it stored a set amount and restored that much HP instead of like in X where it used up all the excess HP and it went to waste would make it even better.

And remember, the final level is hard! Tough as nails. Even the skilled players struggle with it so making it more bearable for newer players wouldn't be a bad thing.

Of course, none of these would affect challenge runs at all to keep it fair for leaderboards.

[Sangahyando]

Originally posted by Zero:

Originally posted by Sangahyando:

A simple, yet elegant solution. Such items saved me so much frustration in the inspirational games.

Or a Subtank. Those can be refilled. If it worked like in Zero/ZX where it stored a set amount and restored that much HP instead of like in X where it used up all the excess HP and it went to waste would make it even better.

And remember, the final level is hard! Tough as nails. Even the skilled players struggle with it so making it more bearable for newer players wouldn't be a bad thing.

Of course, none of these would affect challenge runs at all to keep it fair for leaderboards.

For as much as I adore the idea behind this game and everythng it can become, and for as much time as I've put into it already, I am ashamed to admit I've only ever made it 3-4 levels deep. On Casual. Normal has a much much lower success rate. =/

Kinda sorta forgot the whole Zero/ZX mechanic. Rather, I forgot they had a slightly different function. I figured it was like that from the get-go. Guess it goes to show how long it's been since I played, hm?

Thought on a similar note, Command Mission had a unique twist on it where you could actively choose how much to use, from several percentage options. Between that and the Classic/X, I like the idea of adding some thought to it, rather than using it all willy-nilly. Not to say the Zero/ZX method would be a poor choice, given how difficut the game can be for newer players.

[SidequestSean]

"Unlocks Dally, a buddy that'll show up at the start of Level 2 to throw you some much needed supplies"

This should appear at the beggining of every level in casual ( after the first level of course), if not, maybe every second level.

[Syrel]

Originally posted by SidequestSean:

"Unlocks Dally, a buddy that'll show up at the start of Level 2 to throw you some much needed supplies"

This should appear at the beggining of every level in casual ( after the first level of course), if not, maybe every second level.

If you read further, you'd see that the upgrades make NotEddie show up every second level further and further

On another note, a useful function and/or Aug idea(I'd prefer it to be a basic function rather then an Aug, but possibly disabled for Defiant/Challenge runs, like the rest of these changes you are suggesting), the ability to warp to your teammate, possibly for an NRG or HP cost, I know sometimes me or my buddy has a tough time with one specific section of platforming, to the point that we just hope for a Glory Zone/Shop/Lab to drag the other person over with so they don't have to bash their head for minutes, and other times one of us just trailblazes super hard and the other person just slowly follows along, would also make letting players get to chests after their partner solves them easier

[Portella]

I'm not really sure about the changes. It's not bad, but, not good either.

My suggestion would be, as you earn SC, you could do a permanent upgrade to the player stats as a whole, like, Life Max, ENRG Max, Normal Attack Power, Powers attack, etc.

All of them would cost more according to the amount of the level you get. Example: You could afford the Lvl 1 Health up which would cost 2 SC. Then the Health Lvl 2 would cost 4 SC...

Something like that on the Normal/Casual play would be nice... you would get that kind of Souls games where the more you die, the more powerful you could get.

Of course, no change on defiant runs ;)

Just an idea :S

[Cornhub.com]

Similar to the Crypt of the Necrodancer then?

Seeing as that's my favorite roguelike ever, this seems like a great idea. There needs to be an option to start a normal non-defiant run without the unlocks, and I'm guessing the daily challenge won't include them either.

I'm curious how these will affect multiplayer if the two players are at different levels of completion.

Regarding the poster above me, I second the movement for a warp-to-teammate key and a small cost to prevent abuse.

[Brandon Sky]

If you can toggle these for Normal/Casual runs (in case we still wanna do those bare), then I see absolutely no problem with an idea like this.

[Desiree]

This all sounds good, but in the spirit of compromise, maybe make the permanent upgrades toggleable (on by default)?

[batterystaplegames]

Originally posted by Ban_Midou01:

I'm not really sure about the changes. It's not bad, but, not good either.

My suggestion would be, as you earn SC, you could do a permanent upgrade to the player stats as a whole, like, Life Max, ENRG Max, Normal Attack Power, Powers attack, etc.

All of them would cost more according to the amount of the level you get. Example: You could afford the Lvl 1 Health up which would cost 2 SC. Then the Health Lvl 2 would cost 4 SC...

Something like that on the Normal/Casual play would be nice... you would get that kind of Souls games where the more you die, the more powerful you could get.

Of course, no change on defiant runs ;)

Just an idea :S

This is pretty much exactly what we tried once early in development - unfortunately, it was a disaster. There have to be meaningful, pretty strict caps on permanent power, or the game kind of goes out the window. We probably won't make flat speed/jump/admg/pdmg part of this system for the same reason. Just doesn't feel or play super great.

On a warp-to-teammate key, we talk about this now and again - it's on the "hopefully we have time for this before 1.0" list.

Defiant no-skull takes care of the "non-upgrade normal" - can someone think of a reason we need both?