"Ending A" isn't just immoral and bleak--it's literally impossible (ep 5 end SPOILERS)

[Valdyr]

I could make a whole rant about why the "Sacrifice Chloe" ending is absolute trash from both a moral/ethical and character-development standpoint, and maybe I will, but this topic is about something else. It's about what I think may be a fatal logical inconsistency that actually means this ending couldn't have happened. This gets into some confusing and fiddly details, so try to bear with me.

Episode 5 reinforces what we already knew about Max's photo travel--how when she exits the photo, an "Autopilot Max" takes over who lacks the memories of the future Max. That's why Max, in the selfie Warren took, had to specifically explain to Chloe that she would lose her memory after the end of their conversation. The "Autopilot" only knows what Max would have known and experienced at the point that the "snapshot scene" originally happened. Understanding this is crucial to what comes next.
We also know that in episode 1, the sequence of events is as follows:

1. Max has the tornado vision
2. Max "wakes up" in class with a need to go to the bathroom to wash her face
3. Max tears her selfie, takes the butterfly photo, sees a mysterious, sexy girl get shot, screams, and reaches out her hand
4. Max "wakes up" again back in class, establishing that the bathroom encounter was either a second vision or a real occurrence undone by an involuntary, erratic rewind; her torn selfie is intact and she does not have the butterfly photo
5. Max discovers she can rewind time, and uses it to fix her dropped camera, plus score brownie points with Mark "Mark Attack" Jefferson
6. Max proceeds to the bathroom to repeat the sequence of events from earlier, including taking the butterfly photo again, only this time she rewinds and defeats the accidentally-murderous Nate Dogg with a fire alarm

At the end of this sequence of events, we have established that the following proposition is true: the butterfly photo Max uses at the lighthouse in episode 5 was taken at a point in the timeline where Max already knew she had the power to rewind time. In fact, it was taken while she was in the process of returning for the specific purpose of using rewind to save the blue-haired girl.

So, having established all that, let's re-examine what happens in the "Sacrifice Chloe" ending. Max sits on the floor like a useless ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and lets the most important person in her life get slaughtered as a blood sacrifice to atone for a crime she herself committed, and as in all the other "snapshot worlds", the edges begin to fade out as Max's consciousness leaves the scene and returns to its point of origin. The Max from Friday releases control and the Max from Monday "comes to" sitting on the floor and finds Nathan standing over the dead girl that she came in to save. What do you think happens next? This Max--the Max from Monday--doesn't know that her future self is an infamous coward & murderer who is willing to try letting Chloe die to fix her own mistake. All she knows is that she blacked out for a second and now this girl has been shot. So it's time to rewind! Naturally. She knows she can do that, because that's what she came in here to do. So Monday Max rewinds, Chloe is yanked back up from the floor, the bullet flies back into Nathan's gun, and Max is free to break the glass on the fire alarm with the hammer, break the skull on Nathan's brain with the hammer, shove Nathan, yell at Nathan, do any number of things to break up the confrontation without anyone receiving an inexplicably instantly fatal wound to the solar plexus.

Friday Max--our Max--"comes to" and finds herself still standing next to Chloe, holding the butterfly photo, as the storm swirls over the bay. And there would then ensue perhaps the most awkward conversation in history, where Max has to explain that she tried to accept Chloe's suggestion of murdering her earlier self, except it didn't stick. As long as Max is traveling into the butterfly photo, she can't write The Assassination of Chloe Price by the Coward Max Caulfield into history. So that makes the player's choice of endings rather less complicated.

Your move, DONTNOD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQJcObz1k_E

If you have a logical reason to still think sacrificing Chloe is a good ending, that's fine, but if you refuse to even consider what I've just laid down, just be aware that you are a twisted, soulless kobold with ♥♥♥♥ for blood

[THEREALTHERION]

Valdyr = 1
Dontnod = kicked into next week... Literally

[OdanUrr]

Oh, I had not thought of that. You'd be trapped in a loop then. Interesting.

[THEREALTHERION]

OdanUrr lähetti viestin:

Oh, I had not thought of that. You'd be trapped in a loop then. Interesting.

Interesting? Incorrect answer, good sir. The right one would be:

OUTRAGEOUS. BLOODY OUTRAGEOUS.

WE WANT BLOOD, DONTNOD.


















also lesbian scene would probably appease the masses

[morbosfist]

Valdyr lähetti viestin:

What do you think happens next? This Max--the Max from Monday--doesn't know that her future self is an infamous coward & murderer who is willing to try letting Chloe die to fix her own mistake. All she knows is that she blacked out for a second and now this girl has been shot. So it's time to rewind!

Wouldn't work. When Max blacks out from the tornado vision in Episode 2, she can't rewind far enough to stop Chloe from getting trapped. Same problem here. By hijacking her younger self, Max resets her rewind potential, so past Max couldn't rewind to solve the problem.

[Valdyr]

morbosfist lähetti viestin:

Wouldn't work. When Max blacks out from the tornado vision in Episode 2, she can't rewind far enough to stop Chloe from getting trapped. Same problem here. By hijacking her younger self, Max resets her rewind potential, so past Max couldn't rewind to solve the problem.

Nonsense. We've seen nothing to indicate that a future Max relinquishing direct control would cause the same effects as overusing rewind and tiring herself out. The Max from Monday isn't fatigued at all. In episode 2, Max is fatigued from just spending the better part of an hour playing with rewind over and over and over.

[Wunderland]

I'd also like to add that it seems like everyone that played this game theorized that this would be the ending. This really made the ending feel unoriginal, as many already expected it. It's a bland, unoriginal, confusing, and as you my good sir have proved, impossible ending that lets down the rest of the game.

[Palatine Katinka]

We also have no idea how long Chloe's foot has been trapped so it could be that Max can't rewind that far because she actually got snagged ages back and they just didn't realise it until she had reason to try to get up.

[OdanUrr]

Zebrahawk lähetti viestin:

also lesbian scene would probably appease the masses

I have a feeling that by "the masses" you actually mean, well, you. XD

[morbosfist]

Valdyr lähetti viestin:

Nonsense. We've seen nothing to indicate that a future Max relinquishing direct control would cause the same effects as overusing rewind and tiring herself out. The Max from Monday isn't fatigued at all. In episode 2, Max is fatigued from just spending the better part of an hour playing with rewind over and over and over.

Fatigue has nothing to do with it. She is fully capable of rewind during that scene, but can't rewind past the point where the tornado vision blacked her out. Max hijacking her younger self is going to produce the same effect. Max isn't going to be able to rewind because she'll wake up at the moment, incapable of going back and with no memory of what happened. Unless you can show me evidence that Max can rewind beyond a point where she was unconscious, then the game itself renders your argument moot.

[Wunderland]

OdanUrr lähetti viestin:

Zebrahawk lähetti viestin:

I have a feeling that by "the masses" you actually mean, well, you. XD

Oh no, trust me bro. It's a lot more than just him

[OdanUrr]

Argentum Jack lähetti viestin:

Oh no, trust me bro. It's a lot more than just him

I know. I'm just teasing. ;-)

[Palatine Katinka]

OdanUrr lähetti viestin:

Zebrahawk lähetti viestin:

also lesbian scene would probably appease the masses

I have a feeling that by "the masses" you actually mean, well, you. XD

Max still owes Chloe that hot monkey sex she asked for. Okay, that was the alternate Chloe but I'm sure beautiful blue haired Chloe wont argue if Max suggests it.

[THEREALTHERION]

morbosfist lähetti viestin:

Valdyr lähetti viestin:

Nonsense. We've seen nothing to indicate that a future Max relinquishing direct control would cause the same effects as overusing rewind and tiring herself out. The Max from Monday isn't fatigued at all. In episode 2, Max is fatigued from just spending the better part of an hour playing with rewind over and over and over.

Fatigue has nothing to do with it. She is fully capable of rewind during that scene, but can't rewind past the point where the tornado vision blacked her out. Max hijacking her younger self is going to produce the same effect. Max isn't going to be able to rewind because she'll wake up at the moment, incapable of going back and with no memory of what happened. Unless you can show me evidence that Max can rewind beyond a point where she was unconscious, then the game itself renders your argument moot.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Monday Max is hijacked at a point BEFORE Chloe is shot, so while your (totally unfounded) claim that she couldn't rewind past the point at which she was hijacked, she could still rewind a few seconds back to the point where she was hijacked giving her plenty of time to save Chloe. And that's when the loop begins just like Valdyr laid it out.

[THEREALTHERION]

OdanUrr lähetti viestin:

Zebrahawk lähetti viestin:

also lesbian scene would probably appease the masses

I have a feeling that by "the masses" you actually mean, well, you. XD

Then you're gay xD

[Valdyr]

morbosfist lähetti viestin:

Fatigue has nothing to do with it. She is fully capable of rewind during that scene, but can't rewind past the point where the tornado vision blacked her out. Max hijacking her younger self is going to produce the same effect. Max isn't going to be able to rewind because she'll wake up at the moment, incapable of going back and with no memory of what happened. Unless you can show me evidence that Max can rewind beyond a point where she was unconscious, then the game itself renders your argument moot.

I'm not the one who needs to provide evidence for your assertion. You can see at any point in the game that Max can rewind several minutes' worth of time, especially in some of the longer conversations. If your claim is that Max can't rewind past the point where a future Max was in control, you'll need to prove it. It's not something I can recall the game ever establishing as a rule; it's not a situation we saw, since we are only ever controlling "our" Max, and not a Max that has been "left behind" in the earlier timeline.