A step back from Ryza in every way. Reconsider going foward, devs

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

Ryza 1 was an attempt to make atelier more like a traditional jrpg. Its combat was ok
2 struck a fantastic balance between classic character focused atelier and ryzas new jrpg inclinations. Widened the world and combat got really good
3 was too big for its own good and I remember noting they better scale back and be more like 2. But the combat was EXCELENT and one of the best in any jrpg ever

Yumia takes the worse of the Ryza games and switches the amazing Ryza 3 combat for crap that feels like discount Tales
It focuses too much on Save The World with the Power of Friendship. It feels looks and plays like a generic open world jrpg. The characters even look generic

Scale back the world map, the scale of the story, go back to Ryza 3 combat.
The size of the map of Ryza 2 and Sophie 2 was fine. Atelier is at its best when focused on its cast and their slice of life moments. Ryza added a more standard jrpg story ok top well without it overtaking the series's charm. Yumia lost the balance and became not Atelier. Generic as hell and again GO BACK TO RYZA 3 COMBAT

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

If people were more open minded, we would have better games.

This is a snobby and elitist statement, while ironically being close-minded.

Just because something is not the same as it used to be, does not mean it is worse.

Correct, and this is a straw man. If you think the criticisms of this game boil down to "bad cuz different," you are either unable to comprehend the criticisms being made or you're being willfully dishonest in your misrepresentation. In addition, the Atelier franchise is affectionately famous for always experimenting and changing the crafting formula from one game to the next. The fact you're claiming that "people don't like it just because it's different" shows you don't know anything about the Atelier franchise or its fanbase, they are accustomed to and welcome creative experimentation.

In Yumia case, I don't understand what people beef with it

So in light of the previous two statements, now you're saying you don't even know what the criticisms are?

Afterall, "mass appeal" and making money is the whole point of them running a business

Right, which is why everyone knows that McDonald's is better quality than Ruth Chris, because of its mass appeal. Listen, when you prioritize mass appeal above all else, you start walking down the path of soulless assembly line slop. You want Atelier to become like Call of Duty for JRPGs? That's what mass appeal looks like, and ironically this is precisely a factor that causes the "staleness" that you're warning about, because once you hit upon the formula that has the "widest" appeal, you're going to stick with only that, and the series will get and remain stale for as long as that formula is profitable.

Atelier's identity is built upon its complex and fun, interesting crafting systems, everything else is secondary. Yumia doesn't have that, which means that in the "evolution" from Sophie/Ryza to Generic Atelier-Flavored JRPG, a massive chunk of its core identity was lost. That's why people are upset. Open a Starbucks that doesn't sell coffee or a Subway that doesn't sell sandwiches. You'll get the same reception.

And to mirror your earlier strawman, pivoting Subway to selling primo toilets, in the interest of "evolving", doesn't make it better just because it's now changed.

[Prinny𖤐Wesker]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

I don't disagree with what you said, again I'm just spectator that recently sparked an interest in this series, particularly it started with Ryza, and now with Yumia, so you could say I'm part of the new demographic that KT is attempting to attract. So opinions aside, I'm trying to do my research, and couldn't find any sales numbers for each individual game of the series.

Also, I'm not saying the games have to lose their identity completely in order to evolve, so I'm not sure what elements have been lost between each of the games. I understand the change of a battle system from something like turn-based to action-oriented may irk some purists, but that's not enough to change the identity of a franchise.

So, to reiterate my previous point, I want to point out my previous comment about sales, KOEI TECMO must be doing something right if the new games are reaching a "mass appeal", and if that means changing some the old core elements, then that's what they're going to have to do.

You pointed out Firis as a prototype, I don't know how many copies that game have sold, but if you look at the all-time peak here on Steam, the game barely hit over a hundred. I'm no mathematician, but even I can tell that's abysmal, and that number is just not sustainable for a business, I can see now why this franchise was on its deathbed.

So, you got to look at this at all angles, and KOEI TECMO must be looking at these numbers, and realize they must be doing something right or they're on the right track, even at the cost of changing some elements that incorporate their core identity, it's all part of their strategy of reviving a dying franchise.

The point wasn't that Firis was a stellar game (it wasn't) it was that its not uncommon for the series to make changes to the formula while also retaining its identity

And the steam numbers for a port of a 2016 PS4 title aren't indicative of a dead franchise.

But even if it were, Ryza being the first in the series to catch on in the west would have already revitalized it. So why also throw out the things that worked in Ryza?

Changing things up is fine, trying new things is fine. But to throw out the baby with the bath water and start all over again when you just had a hit is ridiculous

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by Prinny𖤐Wesker:

So why also throw out the things that worked in Ryza?

Because it might be that they think "generic JRPG" is what worked in Ryza. And if they're only looking at sales numbers, despite Yumia's negative reception relative to previous entries, then they'll continue in this direction.

And that raises the question: okay, then what is the logical conclusion? You can't keep traveling down a road forever, there is an end. What does the end look like? People criticized Ryza for dumbing down alchemy back when it released, and it's even more severe here. If each successive game keeps doing this, what will be left? How will the most streamlined, simplified, wide appeal Atelier game be in any way distinguishable from Bog Standard JRPG #4873, aside from having a crafting system that will at that point practically be a tacked on afterthought?

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

But ryza 2 did improve alchemy and added more traditional atelier slice of life stuff. Ryza 2 was a fantastic balance of classic atelier and modenr jrpg. Ryza 3 was too bloated for my taste but the core was still solid and the combat was better, even if i would have preferred ot to be more scaled down like ryza 2. I wish ryza 2 and sophie 2 would be the template for the next few games

[Shrinkshooter]

Yeah, no argument there. I mean I downloaded the demo the moment I saw Steam promote it because I didn't know it existed and I was really looking forward to what Gust would do after Sophie 2. I immediately downloaded the demo and went into it blind. By the time I was done with the first zone I was really sad to see them take such a step back, and I was hoping that this would have taken all the best lessons they'd learned from Ryza and the highly lauded Sophie 2 and combine them somehow while creatively iterating.

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Right, which is why everyone knows that McDonald's is better quality than Ruth Chris, because of its mass appeal.

Talk about straw man, and this is your argument? How many people know of Ruth Chris? If you say just as many people that know McDonald's, you're full or ♥♥♥♥! My argument was never about quality, it's about name recognition, you can try to sell a Rolls Royce, but if nobody knows about it, no one is going to buy it. Instead, people are going to buy that Beetle Volkswagen, why? It's cheap, it's affordable, it's easily available and accessible, and it's well known. Since price is a nonissue here, and opinions like "I prefer slice-of-life over generic jrpg" is subjective, "quality" was never my argument. Sure, it's easy to see the point that "mass appeal" =/= does not equal "quality" (not my argument, wasn't my argument, moving on) and I can tell that was straw man right there. You think "quality", or what you perceive as "quality", it's just going to be readily available for all your personal needs? Talk about snobby and elitist projection! Apparently, the point about running a business went well over your head. I'd like to see you start your own gaming business of "quality" over "mass appeal", and see how long it takes you to go bankrupt... 1 week... 2 weeks? I give you 3 weeks at most. I said it before, and I'll say it again, you need "sells" to run a business and you need "mass appeal" to get those sells, not "quality" (granted quality is a nice addition, that's besides the point). So, until people stop buying crap like "Call of Duty" or "McDonalds", then businesses may have to consider "quality" as a profitable alternative, but good luck convincing everyone of that.

That being, Atelier Yumia is not that. Yumia is actually a good little jrpg, and it didn't lose its identity. It still has crafting, and it still has "slice-of-life", it's just toned-down compared to previous entries, and like I said before that's not a bad thing, especially in Koei Tecmo perspective (the profiters of the franchise), chose to invest and revive a failing franchise (perhaps you're just in denial of this fact).

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Talk about straw man, and this is your argument? How many people know of Ruth Chris?

It's not a strawman, you literally explained the point I was making in this exact sentence. McDonald is "wide appeal." Ruth Chris is not. This does not make McDonald's "better" than Ruth Chris. Is it more known? Yes. Is it more profitable? Yes. But everyone knows that McDonald's is garbage. How did you not understand this analogy?

Since price is a nonissue here, and opinions like "I prefer slice-of-life over generic jrpg" is subjective, "quality" was never my argument.

No, mass appeal was your argument, and my point is that in attempting to cater to mass appeal, you are at great risk for losing quality and at extremely great risk for losing your identity, if what you're doing is attempting to bring mass appeal to a historically niche genre/franchise. People mock Call of Duty for a reason.

You think "quality", or what you perceive as "quality", it's just going to be readily available for all your personal needs?

What? I have no idea what this even is or what this question is supposed to be addressing.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, you need "sells" to run a business and you need "mass appeal" to get those sells, not "quality" (granted quality is a nice addition, that's besides the point).

You do not need mass appeal to get sales, and you do not need mass appeal to survive, you need profitability. Not the same thing. My cousin works for a luxury watch brand that only sells a couple hundred units a year on the high end, but they're so expensive that they make millions of those few sales. Not the same thing as selling games but I'm illustrating your incorrect statement.

Regardless, it's still a ridiculous statement considering plenty of companies have continued for years on a niche dedicated fanbase without creating something with wide appeal (like, whodathunkit, GUST). Nihon Falcom is another one. "We want more sales" is completely fine unless what you're selling decays into not what you're selling anymore, e.g. Atelier stops being Atelier and becomes a generic, faceless JRPG that accomplishes nothing that every other JRPG hasn't done a thousand times already.

That's the problem. If you max out mass appeal to the point that your product has no individuality of its own, then the franchise effectively died and was replaced by generic mediocrity.

Yumia is actually a good little jrpg, and it didn't lose its identity. It still has crafting

1. It is not good. It's not bad either, it's just mediocre. It's bland, which echoes my point about morphing into generic middle-of-the-road stuff you've seen hundreds of times already.

2. The Atelier identity wasn't completely lost, it was lost to a good extent.

3. Having crafting is not the bar. Tons of games have crafting. This game's identity is not built around "it has crafting." I addressed this last post.

[jclosed]

Jeezz - People are really go off here.

I played the Atlier games from the very start on the PS with Atelier Marie (that got a remake last year). I also played all the Atelier Iris and Mana Khemia games. I also played all the games that where released on the PC, starting with Atlier Rorona until the last game now.

The only games I have not played are Atelier Resleriana, because I HATE gacha on-line garbage, and Atelier Nelke, because I am not a fan of the SimCity-esque way of doing things in that game. I have not played the remake of Atelier Marie yet, but I am curious how that turned out, and planning to buy and play this game later this year.

For the turn based game play Atelier Sophie 2 was the top as far as I am concerned.

That all said - I really enjoyed the Atlier Ryza games (2 was the best one) and I really have loads of fun with Atlier Yumia right now. People may have critique on it, but for me the change of style is what this series keeps alive and breathing for me. Whatever people say here - As a long time lover of the Atelier series, I am pretty satisfied with Atelier Yumia.

A note for those that loved the turn-based combat: There is a stand-alone non-gacha garbage version of Atelier Resleriana planned later this year. It would not surprise me if that game is going to be turn-based. I a certainly going to try it out, alnogside with the 3D remake of Trails In The Sky - First chapter.

So - There are my 2 cents...

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by jclosed:

People may have critique on it, but for me the change of style is what this series keeps alive and breathing for me.

Gust is very well known for creatively experimenting on the alchemy crafting formula for each game; the fans have come to expect and desire this. But Yumia hasn't done that, it's just a blander version of Ryza with really dumbed down alchemy.

From one game to the next, Gust would surprise you with a different cut of meat - maybe it's beef, maybe it's pork, maybe it's salmon, and maybe whatever it is just turned out to have a flavor you didn't like. That's all good and fine. Yumia was taking the slab of meat that Ryza was and boiling it for a day with no seasoning before slapping it on a plate.

I think the worst part about it is how aggressively mediocre it is. It's not "bad" but there I get ZERO sense of any passion having been put into this game, it's so by-the-numbers JRPG that it's almost insulting to me.

[Complete Domination]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

If people were more open minded, we would have better games. Just because something is not the same as it used to be, does not mean it is worse. I seem to hear that a lot, even with Final Fantasy games, there is room for both the old and the new to coexist. In Yumia case, I don't understand what people beef with it, but aesthetically speaking it looks better than the older games. I'm no Atelier fanboy by any means, but I do have Ryza, and to me personally Yumia looks even better.

Being open-minded has nothing to do with not speaking your mind when something obviously got worse for them.