Star Ruler 2

Star Ruler 2

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zanaikin Sep 2, 2015 @ 7:38am
Game AI
Is anyone else having a problem with the AI in this game?

On one hand, I'm impressed that the AI can actually raid my rear systems that are unfortified, then run away once I bring my battle fleet to bear (ion cannon upgrade on my interception ships has become a requirement).

On the other hand, the AI is terrible at scaling up their economy or collecting large numbers of ships for a big push.

I'm up to fighting 3 savage AI and it still feels like a cakewalk once I get my first production planet online and pumping out size 500+ cruisers. By the time I have titan hulls researched and go on the offensive the AI just collapse like a deck of cards.

The only time I've ever felt challenged by this AI was when a savage Mono surprised me with a size 900 battleship. To which I sapped its supplies with three Patriotic Surges on the planet it was sieging (a lot of ammo is wasted when tiny little ships spawn around a planet which blocks ships), and then chased it off with a size 300 cruiser when they had almost no supply left.

(and apparently in ABEM, the AI builds no warships in general)
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Dalo Lorn Sep 2, 2015 @ 9:02am 
Well, as far as the ABEM side of things is concerned...

Either they built them and you didn't see them (among other things, the fact that they might be unaware of any targets to attack you with), or they didn't have enough money to build them with due to building a really tiny empire. Both of which are very possible when not running with Legacy Exploration Mode enabled, due to the AI's current inability to comprehend the concept of 'sensors'. (I don't expect any improvement there, because I can't make enough sense of the AI to add sensor support.)
FourGreenFields Sep 3, 2015 @ 1:48am 
AI is imo the only real downside of SR2.

No good ships, no real tactics, no proper economy. They just attack a couple of your planets, and instantly attack them again if you recolonize/recapture them.
Once colonized a planet in a system with no enemies with my mothership - before it could turn around to do other tasks, the enemy fleets had arrived to attack. Logics. (And yes, they FTLed right to that planet)

However, I did see a size 1.4k ship built by the Oko. But by the time they get that, you can usually get a size 20k non-titan ship if you want to...
Last edited by FourGreenFields; Sep 3, 2015 @ 1:49am
zanaikin Sep 3, 2015 @ 9:27am 
I had my suspicions on my first ABEM game so I played one where I kept turning the ch_seeall cheat on and... still couldn't fine the computer building a single ship.

Never seen the AI make size 1000+ ships yet. Although savage AIs (with their money cheat) will build size 900 ships by midgame at a fairly reasonable time. I also had one Oko AI who kept harassing me with size 100 ships... so annoying to deal with.
Dalo Lorn Sep 3, 2015 @ 12:07pm 
Well, Savage AI and/or Legacy Exploration Mode are vital to making the AI even remotely capable of threatening you in ABEM. This problem is exacerbated if you're playing as the Bluuhbi or attempting to access Progenitor technology of any kind, as they don't know how quickly they have to stop you.
dolynick Sep 3, 2015 @ 12:36pm 
My experience with the AI seems to be pretty different than those expressed above. Maybe I'm just slow to militarize since I do tend to work on multiple aspects at once, but I am almost always behind the AIs I encounter in the early to mid stages of the game. I almost always find myself going up against larger ships in the early game. I find the AI is relatively quick (well, faster than me at least) to get to size 500-750 ships and starts fielding size ~1000 by the time I make the move towards 500s myself.

They tend to lose their advantage by the time I'm hitting 750-1000 sizes though, as they just don't manage them terribly well. By that stage of the game, I can usually outclass the enemy fleet via tech upgrades and the ability to reinforce with multiple fleets.

The AI is extremely good at harrassment and guarded incursions: It loves to send ships in and pull them out again when met with resistance. Since it usually has a larger ship, it might actually do some damage if decided to fight to the death (then again, it's designs are rarely truely optimal either since it either uses pre-defined and non-upgraded tech or some usually poor random design) but it usually opts to try to escape and save the ship. Often these attacks are done with poor support fleets in tow (or very insuficient compared to what it could have), which also works against it. If it sent a significantly larger ship in with a full support fleet and the intention to fight to the last man, I might have been in some serious trouble a few times.

I suspect the biggest issue with the AI is that it doesn't approach warfare with an actual plan. It decides what it wants to attack and sends what it has but it doesn't do so with a real game plan. Most of it's combat tactics are reactionary to what happens once an engagement starts. In other words, it manages battles ok, but not a war as a whole. It has no long term strategy in place or any real coding for it that I've found in the AI scripts. To be fair, that sort of AI is much, much more complicated to try and code and very few game AIs that I've seen are truly capable of it. Most are just more or less convincing based on their situational management and empire building (IE, money etc in an RTS to throw at you). I have spent some time reflecting on how I would go about coding it if I were to attempt such a project but it's extremely daunting for this type of game that is so open (no real borders or choke points) and with such varied and variable resources to try and prioitize. As such, I can't really fault the devs too much on the AI - it at least gets some things reasonably right.

Oh, and for the record, I commonly see ships in the 1k-1.6k range in the late game. The largest ship I've seen an AI field was 2.2 or 2.4k. I do tend to play longer, more drawn out games though. It's also entirely possible that I'm just not that good at the game, which allwos the AI to do a bit better as well.
Last edited by dolynick; Sep 3, 2015 @ 12:37pm
FourGreenFields Sep 3, 2015 @ 2:16pm 
Originally posted by dolynick:
[...]
Actually, I also get outclassed by the (savage) AI early on. If they'd gather their fleets and conquer one planet after another without rtb (returning to base), they'd actually be dangerous. But I just don't really bother, and steamroll them later.

As you said, the lack of (military) strategy in a strategy game does kinda hurt the AI's abilities to be a challenging opponent.
Last edited by FourGreenFields; Sep 3, 2015 @ 2:16pm
hellatze (Banned) Sep 4, 2015 @ 2:02am 
Originally posted by FourGreenFields:
Originally posted by dolynick:
[...]
Actually, I also get outclassed by the (savage) AI early on. If they'd gather their fleets and conquer one planet after another without rtb (returning to base), they'd actually be dangerous. But I just don't really bother, and steamroll them later.

As you said, the lack of (military) strategy in a strategy game does kinda hurt the AI's abilities to be a challenging opponent.
AI in this game are outpower everything, but well :/

no strategy whatsoever.
zanaikin Sep 6, 2015 @ 9:05pm 
I did notice that the AI is capable of reactive deployments though. If you lay siege to a system, or attack one of their ships (but they decide not to pull out), they will sometimes reinforce it with their entire fleet. In a quick game yesterday I met fought a midgame 1v1 ship battle with an Oko AI that soon erupted into a fleet battle as the AI poured in reinforcements -- four size 450s plus several size 300s. Then as soon as I won (though I lost my best battleship), I found the other savage player also deploy size 700s into the system. With my ammunition depleted I was forced to retreat and use Patriotic Surge cards to buy time again...

It was the first time I've fought such a tense battle -- was quite exciting ^^

To get a comparable sized ship in early/mid game against Savage AI, you pretty much have to rely on special funds: either by using influence points for them, or by saving a previously scanned anomaly. Terraform planets for textiles (tier 1 money pressure) whenever you have enough spare funds during a budget cycle, and save all the construction material asteroids for rushing shipbuilding. Lastly, a shipyard's -20% cost is essentially a requirement once you get above size 250~300 ships. With the above, I usually manage to stay around the same ship size as a savage AI.
Last edited by zanaikin; Sep 6, 2015 @ 9:12pm
hellatze (Banned) Sep 6, 2015 @ 9:07pm 
still i dont know how to beat thoose savages. damm hard.
IllyiaSvara Sep 7, 2015 @ 4:10am 
For those having problems with savage, starbases as static defenses are key.
If your total strength in the system is more than the AI's single fleet they initially send against it most of the time (not all) the ai well no longer attack the area and just sit down and be like sooo now what.

In honesty, the savage AI doesn't use its infinite resources very well. You'd think with infinite resources, sight and tech progression they would stay ahead for pretty much the whole game, sadly not the case. They need more strategy capabilities in general to have any real strength.

Hell if the only expansion to the game is to expand the AI completely, I think that alone would be make the game suitable for a wider audience.

Just hopefully not pushed into civ levels of ai/strategy where you have to do x thing and anything other than x is not good enough to be used against the AI.

Rexagon Feb 7 @ 8:05pm 
I've never seen the AI deploy more than one or two large fleets, and I've never seen them go beyond say ~20 systems. It also seems as though deploying more than say six fleets is borderline impossible, granted I'm kindof a noob.

What is ABEM and what settings do you use?
Originally posted by Rexagon:
I've never seen the AI deploy more than one or two large fleets, and I've never seen them go beyond say ~20 systems. It also seems as though deploying more than say six fleets is borderline impossible, granted I'm kindof a noob.

What is ABEM and what settings do you use?

It's called Rising Stars now. It was originally the first major mod to come out during Early Access - then we also got DOF, and then Wake of the Heralds killed the dying mod off, until Alar and I teamed up with Darloth and rebuilt it from the ground up as Rising Stars.

(Now we've also got SOI and Lost Sector coming up... I kinda wish these things had happened a few years sooner... :()
Originally posted by Rexagon:
I've never seen the AI deploy more than one or two large fleets, and I've never seen them go beyond say ~20 systems. It also seems as though deploying more than say six fleets is borderline impossible, granted I'm kindof a noob.

What is ABEM and what settings do you use?

This thread is sort of irrelevant now anyways. The entire AI system was drastically rewritten with 2.0/WotH. It certainly still has it's problems but it's an entirely different AI than the one the OP started the thread about. The only way you could be experiencing the same AI as the OP is if you didn't have WotH and you enabled legacy AI.
was reading through this post, and the last comment made me go back and check the dates. The necro is real XD
Originally posted by forrestomintero:
was reading through this post, and the last comment made me go back and check the dates. The necro is real XD

It was. Although there are portions of this thread that are still relevant. Weasel AI did solve the issue of building big ships - If I recall correctly I'm seen up to ~8k in play before during a large game. It's also quite willing to build a number of different ships too.

It still doesn't have any real game plan when it comes to war though. It will pick a target or react to an attack but it does so by simply sending a fleet to the area in question. Once it arrives, the ship then chooses it action/target on its own. It doesn't operate according to a determined multi-step plan, it's more like it reacts and then (once arriving) wings it from there. While this is understandable (because doing otherwise is considerably more difficult to do) it does leave the AI doing some off things from time to time. If you think the AI seems scatter-brained sometimes it's often because the situation when the order to for the fleet to head to the location has changed (possibly a lot) by the time the fleet actually arrives and when it does get there, a different part of the AI makes a decision on what to do.
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