Note to Self: "Surrender" does not mean "Demand Surrender"!

[ʋǟɛʟօʀ]

So I just made an embarrassing rookie mistake nearly 70 hours into my first game, and felt it was my civic duty to warn other new players against making this silly mistake.

My prestigious Federation and I had just conquered the last enemy world and were ready to divvy up the spoils. I accidentally clicked "Surrender" thinking for some reason that meant "Demand Surrender". My allies do not blink an eye as we hand back every single planet we invaded and half of my territory besides. And because I was playing on Ironman mode (the only way to earn cheevs), there's no saving or loading, and when you ragequit it saves on exit.

According to Google, the button I was supposed to push was "Achieve War Goals". Oh well, so much for those 70 hours.... =/

[Radene]

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

Don't buy Chinese tires for your trucks?

I didn't buy any. Does that mean I won a war?

Wow, I knew I wanted to be a general when I grew up.

[yuzhonglu]

Escrito originalmente por Radene:

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

Don't buy Chinese tires for your trucks?

I didn't buy any. Does that mean I won a war?

Wow, I knew I wanted to be a general when I grew up.

If you're Russian you should certainly consider becoming a general considering how Russia's military is performing right now. I can't see you doing any worse.

Another piece of advice; don't dig trenches in Cheronobyl.

Do these two things and you'll already be winning more than the Russians are doing today.

[Radene]

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

Escrito originalmente por Radene:

I didn't buy any. Does that mean I won a war?

Wow, I knew I wanted to be a general when I grew up.

If you're Russian you should certainly consider doing so considering how Russia's military is doing right now.

Another piece of advice; don't dig trenches in Cheronobyl.

I didn't do any of that, either. Which war did I win by not doing it?

[yuzhonglu]

The key to winning a war is to not lose it. So if you avoid all the mistakes that lead to losing the war, you'll win.

Hence: do the opposite of what Russia is doing right now in Ukraine.

[Radene]

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

The key to winning a war is to not lose it. So if you avoid all the mistakes that lead to losing the war, you'll win.

Hence: do the opposite of what Russia is doing right now in Ukraine.

Okay, so what does it mean to "lose a war"?

[yuzhonglu]

1. Digging trenches in Cheronobyl.
2. Spending military budget on super yachts.
3. Having no clear end goal in mind when starting war.
4. Bad intelligence.
5. Buying cheap Chinese tires for your trucks.
6. Ignoring logistics.
7. Having a political system where everyone lies to one another.
8. Using outdated communications technology that is easily intercepted by the enemy.
9. Pissing off countries with significantly stronger economies than you.
10. Invading a country that really doesn't want to be invaded.
11. No contingency plans if things go wrong.
12. Surrounding yourself with yes-man.
13. Not sending in enough troops because it's not a war but a "special military operation."

The list goes on and on and on.

[Radene]

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

1. Digging trenches in Cheronobyl.
2. Spending military budget on super yachts.
3. Having no clear end goal in mind when starting war.
4. Bad intelligence.
5. Buying cheap Chinese tires for your trucks.
6. Ignoring logistics.
7. Having a political system where everyone lies to one another.
8. Using outdated communications technology that is easily intercepted by the enemy.
9. Pissing off countries with significantly stronger economies than you.

None of that is an outcome of a war, so it can't count as "losing a war".

I may be 5 years old, but even I know that you can only "lose" something when that something ends.

So when a war ends, what does it mean to "lose"?

[ScreamCon]

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

Russia will not have a new Cold War because its not a great power and will never be for the foreseeable future. It's just another crappy country that defines itself by opposing America because it has nothing else to provide to its citizens. Kinda like North Korea, or Venezuela, or Cuba. Its conventional military is even weaker than Ukraine's.

A cold war is actually the most likely outcome. But... even a cold war could break if Russia really pushes their coercive diplomacy. Their peoples are smaller in number however but they have decent amount of terrain for self sufficiency. Tech can ultimately be stolen or bought from free market wiling to sell cheat out for pocket lint.

I mean if Russia capitulates I'll eat my hat.

[yuzhonglu]

Escrito originalmente por Radene:

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

1. Digging trenches in Cheronobyl.
2. Spending military budget on super yachts.
3. Having no clear end goal in mind when starting war.
4. Bad intelligence.
5. Buying cheap Chinese tires for your trucks.
6. Ignoring logistics.
7. Having a political system where everyone lies to one another.
8. Using outdated communications technology that is easily intercepted by the enemy.
9. Pissing off countries with significantly stronger economies than you.

None of that is an outcome of a war, so it can't count as "losing a war".

I may be 5 years old, but even I know that you can only "lose" something when that something ends.

So when a war ends, what does it mean to "lose"?

Are you one of those Kremlin people where every time they get their ass whipped they move the goalposts?

"Oh we didn't actually lose,. It was part of our plan all along. Everything is relative and according to our relative interpretation of the facts, we actually won. Hence there is no need for accountability for our failures because we didn't fail. Thus, I can keep my job and continue redirecting Russian taxpayer money to my bank account. All is good."

Are you one of these people? Is this what you believe?

[yuzhonglu]

Escrito originalmente por ScreamCon:

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

Russia will not have a new Cold War because its not a great power and will never be for the foreseeable future. It's just another crappy country that defines itself by opposing America because it has nothing else to provide to its citizens. Kinda like North Korea, or Venezuela, or Cuba. Its conventional military is even weaker than Ukraine's.

A cold war is actually the most likely outcome. But... even a cold war could break if Russia really pushes their coercive diplomacy. Their peoples are smaller in number however but they have decent amount of terrain for self sufficiency. Tech can ultimately be stolen or bought from free market wiling to sell cheat out for pocket lint.

I mean if Russia capitulates I'll eat my hat.

Give the war another two years and Russia will have no choice but to capitulate because they won't have a military anymore.

[Radene]

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

Escrito originalmente por Radene:

None of that is an outcome of a war, so it can't count as "losing a war".

I may be 5 years old, but even I know that you can only "lose" something when that something ends.

So when a war ends, what does it mean to "lose"?

Are you one of those Kremlin people where every time they get their ass whipped they move the goalposts?

"Oh we didn't actually lose,. It was part of our plan all along. Everything is relative and according to our relative interpretation of the facts, we actually won."

Are you one of these people?

I have been quite firmly asking the same question for a while so nothing was moved. But your attempt to discredit me has been noted and will be kept in mind.

With it in mind, here's a step by step thought process:

Winning or losing, that's a so-called "outcome".

For an "outcome" to happen, the thing needs to end first, right?

So, what does it mean to "win" or to "lose" a war, keeping in mind that a war must have ended for anyone to win or lose.

Can you, or can you not, give a clear, succint, and relevan answer to that simple question, without insisting on bringing up a war nobody could have won or lost at this point, because, as you yourself said, it has not ended yet?

[yuzhonglu]

I have already answered your question. The answer is simple and succinct:

In order to win a war, don't lose.

[Radene]

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

I have already answer your question. The answer is simple and succinct:

In order to win a war, don't lose.

For that to work, you need to then clearly and succintly define what "lose" means.

And keep in mind that your definition needs to refer to a finished state of war, not an ongoing one.

[yuzhonglu]

"Losing" is what Russia is doing right now. Digging trenches in Chernobyl, bad intelligence, no clear goal, no contingency plan, ignoring logistics, etc. etc. I've already answered your question.

[ScreamCon]

Escrito originalmente por Radene:

Escrito originalmente por yuzhonglu:

I have already answer your question. The answer is simple and succinct:

In order to win a war, don't lose.

For that to work, you need to then clearly and succintly define what "lose" means.

And keep in mind that your definition needs to refer to a finished state of war, not an ongoing one.

I see what you mean now. Yes, he means 'losing' the war. But the state of lost has not been determined. Though you could say the war looks hopeless.