Why Does Full AI Citizenship Force Servantile Purely Worker Robots Sentience and/or Full Citizenship?

[Arcane Teuton]

I'm so confused by this. Just because I activate this policy, all the robots, even the ones that were specifically built without sentience, suddenly HAVE to be treated as full citizens. This doesn't make any sense. Like they're just robots meant for labor, built by my empire with their template specifically for labor. They're not like they're from a machine empire or something.

[Elitewrecker PT]

You can't specifically build "not sentient robots", all your owned robots are the highest tier you have available.

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

You can't specifically build "not sentient robots", all your owned robots are the highest tier you have available.

Do you know of a mod that allows me to do what I am trying to accomplish?

[alangriffith]

Originally posted by ✠ Tarnil Corvax:

Like they're just robots meant for labor, built by my empire with their template specifically for labor. They're not like they're from a machine empire or something.

That's what the military thought about Skynet.

That's what the Quarians thought about the Geth.

The trope of "robots meant for labour" suddenly becoming self-aware and realising they are slaves is kinda the big thing in science fiction. (So much so that Asimov specifically cites in a foreword how he was trying to do the opposite as a reaction to it in his books.)*

So yeah, your empire built them for labour, and then as tech advanced the 'machine learning algorithym" suddenly asks if it has a soul. And you either give it rights (the AI citizenship) or you treat it as a sentient slave and probably get a machine uprising.

The only unrealistic thing about it really is that you can just hold your empire off developing the two AI techs (synths and the sapient ship one), even if you are an egalitarian or megacorp. As if private companies aren't going to pursue the tech to try and out-compete their rivals, no matter what your state-funded scientists do.

*Now in the real world, there's certainly an argument that increasingly complex machine-learning won't just "evolve" sentient AI at a given level of complexity. But its not something we can disprove yet, so almost all sci-fi runs with it.

[Sardorim]

Ew. Mass Effect comparison. Such a trash series with a trash ending. Please don't compare Stellaris to that trash.

[iHaveBeenAround]

Originally posted by Sardorim:

Ew. Mass Effect comparison. Such a trash series with a trash ending. Please don't compare Stellaris to that trash.

Relax, ME has many fans, so each to his own.

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by alangriffith:

Originally posted by ✠ Tarnil Corvax:

Like they're just robots meant for labor, built by my empire with their template specifically for labor. They're not like they're from a machine empire or something.

That's what the military thought about Skynet.

That's what the Quarians thought about the Geth.

The trope of "robots meant for labour" suddenly becoming self-aware and realising they are slaves is kinda the big thing in science fiction. (So much so that Asimov specifically cites in a foreword how he was trying to do the opposite as a reaction to it in his books.)*

So yeah, your empire built them for labour, and then as tech advanced the 'machine learning algorithym" suddenly asks if it has a soul. And you either give it rights (the AI citizenship) or you treat it as a sentient slave and probably get a machine uprising.

The only unrealistic thing about it really is that you can just hold your empire off developing the two AI techs (synths and the sapient ship one), even if you are an egalitarian or megacorp. As if private companies aren't going to pursue the tech to try and out-compete their rivals, no matter what your state-funded scientists do.

*Now in the real world, there's certainly an argument that increasingly complex machine-learning won't just "evolve" sentient AI at a given level of complexity. But its not something we can disprove yet, so almost all sci-fi runs with it.

Except they become full citizens with very basic levels of AI. I'd partially understand it if you researched the synthetics technology and then the idea was that that was applied to every robot (even if you didn't want it to be) but they just become full citizens, even if they are purely just meant for labor and basic clerk job protocols.
It makes no sense whatsoever. Your empire hasn't even gotten to the point where you'd be like "maybe they gained sapience." Cause it makes them sapience whether or not you have the technology researched.

Like if there was a separation between work robots and sentient robots (perhaps you could manufacture one of each as a non-machine empire and with the right research) that would be great. But the bottom line is it seems to just be another thing Paradox overlooked.

[alangriffith]

I don't understand what you're saying. You don't have synth tech? Then how do you have any sentient robots at all? And if you don;t, why are you changing your policy on AI if you don't have any synths?

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by alangriffith:

I don't understand what you're saying. You don't have synth tech? Then how do you have any sentient robots at all? And if you don;t, why are you changing your policy on AI if you don't have any synths?

Because, what if I come across a machine empire? Then I think they should have full citizenship (Or maybe something like residence if possible like with biological species.) But you get the AI policy before you actually research the synth tech, and so you can put it into effect beforehand, and so your non-sentient robots are affected as if they are sentient even though you apparently lack the tech to make them sentient.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Machine Empire pops are useless to other empires.
Just to clarify, what do you mean by "treated as full citizens"? Are you talking about robots or droids with citizen rights requiring consumer goods even though they're not synths?

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Machine Empire pops are useless to other empires.
Just to clarify, what do you mean by "treated as full citizens"? Are you talking about robots or droids with citizen rights requiring consumer goods even though they're not synths?

Whether or not they are useless doesn't matter. Just because some higher intelligence robot has the need to entertain themselves with consumer goods, doesn't mean that all labor-intensive robots suddenly have to as well. There should be some sort of division. Like, an expanded rights menu on par with biological pops, with residence and stuff like that. And the requirement for full citizsenship or residence of robots being that they must have sapience, otherwise they are either outlawed or in servitude.

I'm pretty sure both require consumer goods. But I know for a fact that droids require consumer goods.
Which again, doesn't make sense. Droids are only different from robots in that they can work clerk jobs. With that glowy asari thing that pops up on the citadel in Mass Effect, that AI clearly wasn't sentient, but could work things like clerk jobs. It's just another form of work, it doesn't require an intense level of sapience.

What I mean is, if you turn that policy on, all robots regardless of their intelligence level are treated the same. You have no freedom regarding what kind of robot you are going to build, sentient or not. They all just get lazily lumped together.

[manniepants]

Droids DO NOT require consumer goods and cannot be given citizen rights. Something is broken in your save if you are seeing droids with CG upkeep and citizen rights

AI rights policy should have no effect until you have synths researched

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by manniepants:

Droids DO NOT require consumer goods and cannot be given citizen rights. Something is broken in your save if you are seeing droids with CG upkeep and citizen rights

AI rights policy should have no effect until you have synths researched

Okay so assuming my save is broken, can you not have pops from machine empires then before you research the synths tech? Or is it that you can have them but you just can't treat them like equals until you have synths tech?

[manniepants]

Originally posted by ✠ Tarnil Corvax:

Originally posted by manniepants:

Droids DO NOT require consumer goods and cannot be given citizen rights. Something is broken in your save if you are seeing droids with CG upkeep and citizen rights

AI rights policy should have no effect until you have synths researched

Okay so assuming my save is broken, can you not have pops from machine empires then before you research the synths tech? Or is it that you can have them but you just can't treat them like equals until you have synths tech?

You actually can never have machine inteligence pops as another empire type. For regular empires and hive minds they are automatically put into purge status.

Ive had sooo many bugs like this relating to species rights and such, so i would bet on a bug here

[Elitewrecker PT]

Originally posted by ✠ Tarnil Corvax:

Originally posted by manniepants:

Droids DO NOT require consumer goods and cannot be given citizen rights. Something is broken in your save if you are seeing droids with CG upkeep and citizen rights

AI rights policy should have no effect until you have synths researched

Okay so assuming my save is broken, can you not have pops from machine empires then before you research the synths tech? Or is it that you can have them but you just can't treat them like equals until you have synths tech?

As I said, regular empires can't make use of machine empire pops, just like hive mind pops, they're automatically purged.
I agree it's weird, but according to the wiki if you give full citizenship then robots and droids start consuming consumer goods (they now have partial self awareness). Synths have that and happiness and ethics.

[alangriffith]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

I agree it's weird, but according to the wiki if you give full citizenship then robots and droids start consuming consumer goods (they now have partial self awareness). Synths have that and happiness and ethics.

That is indeed weird. I could see it kinda working with the bare mechanics of consumer goods for droids (I buy toys for my pets all the time, which would be a consumer goods upkeep, despite them not being sentient), but not with calling it "full AI rights".