Not pay to win, just pay to talk.

[Solarwake]

this will be the first game ive ever seen where you have to PAY to actually chat, of course you can always talk in local .. which means youll pretty much be running up to people and asking them if they want to buy or sell items to you, which i can see as a major hurdle in a game that claims to be "social"

[shane3x]

To be fair, it will stop the gold spammers and the mostly nonsense/troll chat that tends to flood mmo's. However stopping legitimate chat at the same time isn't ideal either.

[Shiru]

The game is 100% a * we're not pay to win* pay to win game. Pay to chat, pay to get boosts, pay for player housing. Yes, that is pay to win .

[Chase]

Monetization is indeed suspect. One of the more irritating aspects for me personally is Outfits which messes with visual progression and clarity and I am not a fan.

[Ed Farage]

Hey guys, I think every point here is valid; I highly suggest, however, that you start a suggestion in our Discord: https://discord.gg/apogea where more members can chime in the conversation so we can actually get somewhere.
And, while we're on the topic, I want to say that the monetization in Apogea is not profit driven: We don't sell any kind of experience boost, lootboxes or even cosmetics - precisely because I hate these things in modern video games and I want to completely steer away from it.
I recently talked extensively about this in an interview I did here (@33:20): https://youtu.be/OwpVQnRFKbQ?si=ZfrmX4ovCLy1RwzL&t=1999
Hope this helps

[Freddy's Spaghettiria]

TF2 was first with muting free to plays..

[Enarei]

You never played most Korean MMOs then where you had to pay for items to do global chats. You will live.

[Rasip]

Originally posted by Solarwake:

this will be the first game ive ever seen where you have to PAY to actually chat, of course you can always talk in local .. which means youll pretty much be running up to people and asking them if they want to buy or sell items to you, which i can see as a major hurdle in a game that claims to be "social"

Never played Guildwars 2? Most of chat and most of the auction house were paid players only for quite a while.

[Hades]

Originally posted by Ed Farage:

Hey guys, I think every point here is valid; I highly suggest, however, that you start a suggestion in our Discord: https://discord.gg/apogea where more members can chime in the conversation so we can actually get somewhere.
And, while we're on the topic, I want to say that the monetization in Apogea is not profit driven: We don't sell any kind of experience boost, lootboxes or even cosmetics - precisely because I hate these things in modern video games and I want to completely steer away from it.
I recently talked extensively about this in an interview I did here (@33:20): https://youtu.be/OwpVQnRFKbQ?si=ZfrmX4ovCLy1RwzL&t=1999
Hope this helps :kinghappy:

Seriously what is the issue with selling cosmetics if they can t be resell for in game currency and if it doesnt affect in game visual in PVP ?

And why not sell experience boost if there is a hard level cap ? I dont understand.

Are you guys looking to charge 40$ for a MMO like Pantheon or even worst a monthly sub ?
Also, do you guys want ending up pampering a few edge lords or make your game really popular ?

Personally I suspect a lot of of small indie game / company are too "lazy" to properly "think" about "cool cash shop" features and such, maybe because it s not that easy to deliver and maybe also because it needs some real marketing efforts to really please every one and success financially... anyways, something just feels off to me about this whole topic nowadays.

It certainly needs extra effort to handle thousands and thousands of "freebies" playing your "free" game with a "cool cash shop"... but this would only happen if your MMO game is successful and worth to play... I dunno... but dev apparently going against "any cash shop" direction is not a good signal to me... although Apogea seems promising and nice overall (as an ex 1997 UO player).

Anyways, if this game is going to be another "niche bs" with a high price tag or worst a sub for edgy people allergic to "cash shop", I am out already.

Actually a cash shop or optional sub if wisely used could even add extra gameplay / interest/ objectives to a good MMO game, can help tacle RMT, etc etc... turning back to this all together without a second though, is likely a (big) mistake.

[Ed Farage]

Originally posted by Hades:

Seriously what is the issue with selling cosmetics if they can t be resell for in game currency and if it doesnt affect in game visual in PVP ?

Selling cosmetics removes prestige

Originally posted by Hades:

And why not sell experience boost if there is a hard level cap ? I dont understand.

There is no level cap, also exp. boost is pay to win

Originally posted by Hades:

Are you guys looking to charge 40$ for a MMO like Pantheon or even worst a monthly sub ?

Game is free, Premium is 10U$ localized (some countries is cheaper)

Originally posted by Hades:

Also, do you guys want ending up pampering a few edge lords or make your game really popular ?

I'm not sure what this means, but we already have a pretty healthy community, no need to pamper anyone.

Originally posted by Hades:

Personally I suspect a lot of of small indie game / company are too "lazy" to properly "think" about "cool cash shop" features and such, maybe because it s not that easy to deliver and maybe also because it needs some real marketing efforts to really please every one and success financially... anyways, something just feels off to me about this whole topic nowadays.

Apogea is not really about making a cool cash shop - It's about making a good experience for players by removing pay to win purchases

Originally posted by Hades:

It certainly needs extra effort to handle thousands and thousands of "freebies" playing your "free" game with a "cool cash shop"... but this would only happen if your MMO game is successful and worth to play... I dunno... but dev apparently going against "any cash shop" direction is not a good signal to me... although Apogea seems promising and nice overall (as an ex 1997 UO player).

During tests we got a lot of feedback on that, we've been adjusting things to make sure it's a pleasant experience overall

Originally posted by Hades:

Anyways, if this game is going to be another "niche bs" with a high price tag or worst a sub for edgy people allergic to "cash shop", I am out already.

No price tag, like stated above. About the edgy part: I made the game thinking about myself, so I sort of designed it in a way where people who don't take games seriously to not enjoy it as much as the former, so not completely wrong, but I'm not sure what "edgy" means here

Originally posted by Hades:

Actually a cash shop or optional sub if wisely used could even add extra gameplay / interest/ objectives to a good MMO game, can help tacle RMT, etc etc... turning back to this all together without a second though, is likely a (big) mistake.

I guess time will tell if it was a mistake! But the cash shop thing is a decision made from a principle point of view, rather than a financial one (obviously, I don't hate money, I just hate modern video games)

Hope this cleared some things up!

[Hades]

Glad the game will be free to play so hopefully packed of players.

Im not sure about what means "Selling cosmetics removes prestige"... prestige in an MMO to me is about doing the 25 people supoer hard raid with your guild and get some fancy loot or getting some badass pvp title or arena rank or some tournament or even some rare event exclusive reward... actualy "good MMO" often offers an equivalent less prestigious / less rare cash shop item to replace a rare "hard to get" item in game, for example some kind of mount.

"Apogea is not really about making a cool cash shop - It's about making a good experience for players by removing pay to win purchases"

i am playing MMO exclusively as f2p player now (wasnt always like this), and i ve never been upset by any "whale" / cash shop player , and while being against "pay to win purchases" in general , i couldn t care less about cosmetics or even convenience items as long there is a way to get similar items by playing the game, like farming coins, doing repetive quests etc.

"During tests we got a lot of feedback on that, we've been adjusting things to make sure it's a pleasant experience overall"
Nothing will ever replace "pro tester" / "pro gamer" and "pro RPG/RP people" to test , evaluate, break and improve your game. Relying on Discord feedback / echo chamber etc etc is naive and a common mistake many small indie devs seem to do

Still don't get me wrong, Apogea looks nice and promising, and I respect you are making "the game you want to play" somehow.
Point is I doubt highly it is sufficient to make a really cool, kinda addictive, although simplistic and old school MMO like was Uncharted Waters back is the days (a totaly p2w game lol) , Lineage 2 , UO, etc etc , with deepness and cool RP, RPG and social features (like thief/lockpicking, tournaments, expeditions, street vendors etc etc), a real story, and some interesting heroic fantasy settings and style.

Time will tell.. but zero cash shop is quite a "weak signal" to me already tbh...
Some kind of fancy, well thought and incentive cash shop would have appeared much more "promising" to me.

[Ed Farage]

Originally posted by Hades:

Glad the game will be free to play so hopefully packed of players.
prestige in an MMO to me is about doing the 25 people supoer hard raid with your guild and get some fancy loot or getting some badass pvp title or arena rank or some tournament or even some rare event exclusive reward... actualy "good MMO" often offers an equivalent less prestigious / less rare cash shop item to replace a rare "hard to get" item in game, for example some kind of mount.

We're talking about the same prestige then, being able to purchase these same rare rewards from the store makes it lame.

Originally posted by Hades:

i am playing MMO exclusively as f2p player now (wasnt always like this), and i ve never been upset by any "whale" / cash shop player

Well, I have.

Originally posted by Hades:

i couldn t care less about cosmetics or even convenience items as long there is a way to get similar items by playing the game, like farming coins, doing repetive quests etc.

Well, I care. I care a lot about it, in fact. I don't want whales in my game.

Originally posted by Hades:

Nothing will ever replace "pro tester" / "pro gamer" and "pro RPG/RP people" to test , evaluate, break and improve your game. Relying on Discord feedback / echo chamber etc etc is naive and a common mistake many small indie devs seem to do

I don't understand this, on what exactly are you basing this on? We have an active community with different opinions and healthy discussions.

Originally posted by Hades:

Still don't get me wrong, Apogea looks nice and promising, and I respect you are making "the game you want to play" somehow.
Point is I doubt highly it is sufficient to make a really cool, kinda addictive, although simplistic and old school MMO like was Uncharted Waters back is the days (a totaly p2w game lol) , Lineage 2 , UO, etc etc , with deepness and cool RP, RPG and social features (like thief/lockpicking, tournaments, expeditions, street vendors etc etc), a real story, and some interesting heroic fantasy settings and style.

Did you play the game?

Originally posted by Hades:

Time will tell.. but zero cash shop is quite a "weak signal" to me already tbh...
Some kind of fancy, well thought and incentive cash shop would have appeared much more "promising" to me.

Weak in relation to what? What is it weak on, exactly?

[Hades]

"I don't understand this, on what exactly are you basing this on? We have an active community with different opinions and healthy discussions."

Ok, this could be... still to my opinion nothing replace a good "QA team" with specialized people paid/working professionally to "test" your game.

"Did you play the game?"

Yes, but only a little unfortunatly... I wished I tried it more but the test phase was ending already. If you give me access now, Ill gladly retry it

"Weak in relation to what? What is it weak on, exactly?"

A "harmless" , fancy and well made cash shop is I believe a good/ the best subsidiary for regular cash income, In regard to developing such game further.
A healthy cash shop also reflects "success of the game" to some extend, especially in f2p i believe.
Avoiding completely cash shop for X or Y reason in a MMO looks to me like avoiding to confront this "reality" and the "true value" of your game somehow... using "fallacious" pretext.
Same could be said for a sub model... if your game is good enough some people might really want to sub to it for extra features / benefits, like some guild leader for example.
Sub model is usually awful but maybe "cool" if "well thought" and optional to f2p model, and overall beneficial to all players.
So to resume, I am for "all source of income" for such game, as long it doesnt impact negatively the gameplay, which implies it has been well thought in advance by people knowing exactly what they are doing, which implies a lot of skills in various fields... technical and non technical.
Thus Apogea completely "skipping" cash shop, going another route... is kinda a downer to me although the game seems promizing.

[Ed Farage]

Originally posted by Hades:

A healthy cash shop also reflects "success of the game" to some extend, especially in f2p i believe.

To me success has nothing to do with money. I made Apogea to be a good game, it being a financial success just allows us to keep building it into the future.

About everything else, I'm very confused. You are implying a lot of things that aren't based on anything. Fallacious pretext? Avoiding reality? No skills?

I have been making games for 12 years and I funded this game without a crowdfunding project. Even though I don't think this is relevant, it would be nice to not assume otherwise out of the blue.

Either way, I hope my answers have not come across as too dainty, hopefully next test you can play Apogea some more to give better judgment.

See you then!

[Hades]

Originally posted by Ed Farage:

Originally posted by Hades:

A healthy cash shop also reflects "success of the game" to some extend, especially in f2p i believe.

To me success has nothing to do with money. I made Apogea to be a good game, it being a financial success just allows us to keep building it into the future.

About everything else, I'm very confused. You are implying a lot of things that aren't based on anything. Fallacious pretext? Avoiding reality? No skills?

I have been making games for 12 years and I funded this game without a crowdfunding project. Even though I don't think this is relevant, it would be nice to not assume otherwise out of the blue.

Either way, I hope my answers have not come across as too dainty, hopefully next test you can play Apogea some more to give better judgment.

See you then!

Having technical experience is not enough to make such game successful I believe.

Do you have a real "GM" (known or unknown to player base) overseeing all aspect of your Apogea project and taking the final decisions, also writers and such ? I doubt that.

And I just keep saying something quite simple : Lots of small indie (MMO) dev team will put aside the cash shop, not really because its "bad" but because they dont have the ressources / what it takes to make a good one. They will go usually for something simpler to deliver.
Asian companies usually dont do that. Maybe thats why they create so many MMO and people play them... who knows.

And to me if you just see cash shop as "bad" and dont see the good out of it / potential for an MMO, like "merchandising tool", "selling goodies" and such.. then sorry but i think you guys are a bit out of touch (which is not really a bad thing either I suppose when making an MMO).

Anyways, Ill be glad to play Apogea again, next time it happen to be on test, hopefully for more than a few hours... aha.

[$tump]

not in game yet, but its fairly common system for global announcements and has been around for quite a long time.