Time to admit mistakes

[Siazk]

This is going to get a ton of hate. Devs, its time to admit you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. These recent changes that are catering to the small minority of players that complained the game was too easy has driven a good portion of your player base away and destroyed the reviews that people see when they look at this game. Killing enemies twice because of corpses makes no sense. Forcing us to use specific classes to avoid this makes no sense. Increasing stress generating enemies so that your heroes either go crazy in the dungeon or have to be recovered after every single run, wasting gold, makes no sense. The massive amount of randomness that was introduced in the last few patches has taken a once fun, brutal dungeon crawler and turned it into a massive grind fest where you are at the complete mercy of the RNG. Please stop listening to the minority of people who exploit the parties and then whine about the game being too easy and take the game back to what it was.

[Axelord1942]

Originally posted by darkside96321:

Killing enemies twice because of corpses makes no sense.

Except you don't have to? There are AoE attacks that clear them and many characters can choose which enemies they hit. This is a baseless claim.

Originally posted by darkside96321:

Forcing us to use specific classes to avoid this makes no sense.

I find it hard to see how you are "forced" to choose from multiple characters that have options for dealing with/avoiding corpses. Furthermore, complaining that a game is forcing you to play differently is laughable. Literally every game ever has done this.

Originally posted by darkside96321:

The massive amount of randomness that was introduced in the last few patches has taken a once fun, brutal dungeon crawler and turned it into a massive grind fest where you are at the complete mercy of the RNG.

The enemies are at the mercy of the RNG as well. The difference is that you have more flexibility in regards to your strengths and weaknesses and can change them between runs. The enemies cannot and do not do this.

Not anywhere in this have you provided alternatives, facts or answers.

[Don Cool]

No hate from me, I simply stopped playing it after a certain patch, its too hard. Just came here to read on what people thought about the new patch. I never thought the game was easy, but now I get more stress from playing it than the characters in the dungeon.

Creative freedom was available sometime ago in regard party combination, you could be successful with various characters and didnt depend on a few strategies. The min/maxers did however complain too much and the devs complied.

There are ways you can be successful currently, butt they very much depend on you to use certain tricks like resting in the first room and preventing stress from the start and buffing the entired party. Better to prevent damage than to spend time healing it, both stress and actual damage.

[Giga]

The devs clearly stated in their philosophy that this game is going to be HARD. They expect your heros to break from stress and is meant to be an uphill battle.

Corpses are easily avoided with just careful planning on your team composition. You could either:
A - Use a corpse clearing move (Plauge Doctor, Leper, Occultist)
B - Move the enemies around (Plauge Doctor, Leper, Occultist, Highwayman, Man-at-Arms)
or C - Brute force it with DoTs or strong hits (which usually take only 1 turn since they have very minimal health)

Corpses are even sometimes beneficial. Such as when I can move a Gladiator to the very back rank, forcing it to move forward for 2 turns with a weaker move or I am able to prevent Fungal Artillery from using Escape Cloud since corpses prevent it from moving up.

They just also released a patch that balanced some classes and, oh hey, make corpses even easier to take down now that crit kill won't leave one. Sure, RNG is nasty at late game, but the game is still playable till the end. I'm actually glad that they don't listen to the majority, who constantly whine that the game is too hard, RNG based, or bad (despite the green bar on the store page stating in clearly that it is in Early Access) and instead, had kept making the game in their image. So I cheer for you the Red Hook Team and keep doing what you guys do best, making a hard dungeoncrawler.

[Giga]

Originally posted by Don:

No hate from me, I simply stopped playing it after a certain patch, its too hard. Just came here to read on what people thought about the new patch. I never thought the game was easy, but now I get more stress from playing it than the characters in the dungeon.

Creative freedom was available sometime ago in regard party combination, you could be successful with various characters and didnt depend on a few strategies. The min/maxers did however complain too much and the devs complied.

There are ways you can be successful currently, butt they very much depend on you to use certain tricks like resting in the first room and preventing stress from the start and buffing the entired party. Better to prevent damage than to spend time healing it, both stress and actual damage.

You can still pull off any party start you want. You just need to think how to work around each hero's weaknesses. Once had a full team of Jesters, and to my suprise, actually make it out alive in one piece with the quest completed.

[Angoril]

Originally posted by darkside96321:

These recent changes that are catering to the small minority of players that complained the game was too easy has driven a good portion of your player base away and destroyed the reviews that people see when they look at this game.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but this game is supposed to be a roguelike. Currently, it's a roguelite at best since the difficulty is "not there yet". If they still plan on creating a roguelike, and not just using the genre as a means of selling more copies, expect further increase in difficulty and the "unfair" meter of the game.

Roguelikes are not forgiving games and they don't hold your hand to safely guide you through the areas. They will punish you with every chance they get and they will punish you hard. Be happy, I guess, that DD has no perma death forcing you to start a new estate every time you make a big mistake.

[Space Cadet]

Some people get used to the way the mechanics work then complain because they want more of a challenge, not taking into account that not everyone wants more challenge or has the same skill level. The devs really need to strike a balance here or they will definitely end up alienating one bunch or the other. Most games resolve this by having difficulty levels or, my favorite, tick boxes for more difficult (or easier) game options.

[The Reloader]

It really seems like the best way to please both parties is to add difficult levels.

[The Reloader]

I mean difficulty levels, sorry I can't seem to edit my post.

[Don Cool]

Originally posted by The Reloader:

I mean difficulty levels, sorry I can't seem to edit my post.

I wouldn´t mind it, but in general the elite gamers will oppose it, they hate someone else beating the same game and having an easier time at it.

[Giga]

Originally posted by Don:

Originally posted by The Reloader:

I mean difficulty levels, sorry I can't seem to edit my post.

I wouldn´t mind it, but in general the elite gamers will oppose it, they hate someone else beating the same game and having an easier time at it.

I wouldn't mind different difficulty settings. Don't see why L33T gamers should get mad over someone having easier difficulty if the community would be happy, the game is being played, and most are content with it. The game was too hard for you and you didn't go to the forums and said "DEVS, YOU F***** UP. FIX THIS NOW. TOO UNFAIR.", but instead gave a proposition/actual feedback.

[Angoril]

Originally posted by Don:

I wouldn´t mind it, but in general the elite gamers will oppose it, they hate someone else beating the same game and having an easier time at it.

That wouldn't be "elite" gamers, but stupid ones. SP games are not a test of skills, people play them to have fun. As long as they provide a difficulty which keeps the game true to being a roguelike, I don't mind how easy the rest of them might be.

Also, if someone wants to "show off" that managed to do it on the highest difficulty level, achievements can take care of that. Many games have some connected to difficulty and RH has already confirmed that they will add some on full release.

[Tall Midget]

I just bought the game and don’t know how the game used to play but I have say, first this game is freaking awesome. Found my next gaming drug. But as someone new to the game with fresh perspective, I just find the difficulty a given. I find it so frustrating but in a good way like. You squeeze your mouse and clench your fist and turn the game off but you come back to it after taking a break ready to go at it again with even more vigor. How about a difficulty setting? If there was one I would certainly experiment with that cause right now its hair pulling hard. Still loving it for now but I’m worried after awhile it will become so frustrating and infuriating and stressful its no longer fun.

But I have to say, I did find that having to “kill” the corpse a little strange. I understand why its there. To make the party order and enemy order still matter but why does it have hit points and still take bleeding damage? It really does feel like you have to kill it twice. But for the sake of gameplay I just tell myself that its the fallen monster body and its in the way and you have to hack it away. I guess that’s how they want you to interpret the corpse.

This game totally shows you don’t need a huge team or production value to create an amazing game.

[Don Cool]

Originally posted by Angoril:

Originally posted by Don:

I wouldn´t mind it, but in general the elite gamers will oppose it, they hate someone else beating the same game and having an easier time at it.

That wouldn't be "elite" gamers, but stupid ones. SP games are not a test of skills, people play them to have fun. As long as they provide a difficulty which keeps the game true to being a roguelike, I don't mind how easy the rest of them might be.

Also, if someone wants to "show off" that managed to do it on the highest difficulty level, achievements can take care of that. Many games have some connected to difficulty and RH has already confirmed that they will add some on full release.

I doubt the devs will find a way to balance things to everyones taste, thats a difficult thing to do. So maybe a difficulty level wouldn´t be a bad idea.

[haon26]

The only mistake I am observing, is there must be a whole lot of parents out there that made the mistake of never teaching their kids to "STOP WHINING".
The only reason the forums are filled up with negative cry baby crap, is because the thumb suckers out there happen take their hands out of their mouths to protest that they want something to hold their hand and make their decisions for them. That way they don't have to feel resposible for their goons stressing to heart attack(you maybe should retreat before that happens, if it hurts yer witto feeweens).
Stop complaining that your pawn doesn't have the same powers that the queen does. They all have specific roles. If you really can't adapt, go back to playing your 'mario cart'.
This game can be tough. It is a struggle at times. Yes, sometimes 'my' stress was higher than my goons. I lost both my highest Vestals back to back hunting down Shamblers. They DED. Who the hell cares. I know where I can find some more, real cheap.
It is the same with cards, play what you are dealt. Don't forever complain that the dealer must not 'like' you. Learn to roll with the punches. It will take you far in life.

[DedZedNub]

Difficulty levels and having options, never cause grief to either players or the success of a game. Never.

The only thing that it causes is more work for a developer. If the developer is organized, they can still provide a game that fits their vision and also has some key difficulty levels and options. But it takes effort, will, and time/money.

Let me see if by proposing something a bit exaggerated, some here will better understand the point I'm trying to illustrate.

Let's say a given game (not necessarily this one) had the following options on it (and many others not mentioned) NOTE: Any logical combination of these options may be chosen before beginning a Game. Further let's pretend that every single one of these options is well-implemented and does everything the person choosing the option expects it to do:

-- Roguelike Option
-- Roguelite Option
-- Hardcore
-- Easy/Medium/Hard/Insane/GameWillBeatYouAndUninstallYourOS+FryHardDriveIfyouLose
-- SissyButIdon'tCareCasualInYourFaceEliteSnobMode
-- Tactical Board Game
-- Real-Time Mode
-- Timed Campaign
-- Unlimited Time Campaign
-- One Character Dies Even Though We Said It Would Not
-- AI Gives You Hints Every So Many Turns
-- Take 1 Turn Do-Over Per Campaign
-- Computer Gets Hacked If You Lose
-- The Developer Admits You Are Right if you win against FryHardDrive Level
-- 100 x Faster turns each giving you under .5 seconds to choose all the squad commands
-- Every X number of Turns the Screen Goes Blank but all buttons and hotkeys are Still Clickable -- Only Possible During Timed Mode
-- A 4 Year Old Must Input Every Sixth Command or the RNG automatically chooses a command at Random for you.
-- Third Person View
-- First Person View
-- Uses Unity just to prove We can
-- Uses Unreal just to prove We can
-- Uses Self-Created Engine just to prove We can
-- Uses ASCII character only graphics
-- Uses Pixel/Retro Graphics
-- Black n White Only Graphics
-- Aged Graphics
-- No Graphics aka Braille for the Win Mode
-- No Sound aka Deal With Silence Mode

Ok, that's enough examples for now. Got to admit that if you beat the game with some of those options on, you'd have a whole lot of bragging rights. People might also call you crazy, stupid, or a masochist -- but that's not the issue at hand.

Would any of you have a problem with Darkest Dungeon if it had all these options, well implemented now. Pretend that it all is already done, cost of the game is the same, etc. That way we focus on it simply having more options.

Would anybody playing games on this planet seriously have a problem with that? No.

Would it appeal to a larger audience? Yes.

So, could we knock off the roguelike vs roguelite nonsense since the terms defining their difference are so vague anyway? Also since half the people reading these forums have no real idea what is the difference?

If the devs don't want or can't spend the time on such things. Ok, fine. But if they can, it pays -- which is the whole point of marketing a game -- to provide some options. It does not pay to split your fans into several factions so that one totally wins and the other totally loses.

This game was getting incredible word of mouth. Now -- that's turned very fast, very hard into the wind. Anybody who is a fan ought to see that if they stick their head outside these forums. I'm one of those looking in from the outside. I can tell you this, sometimes it is simpler to provide the tickable options than to shoot yourself in the foot.

Any poster who constantly tells others that they are wrong to complain about things being too easy or too hard, doesn't understand what I am showing in the above example. People vary, conditions at home vary, time available to play vary, skill and experience with a game vary. Some players just want to experience something, some want a challenge, some want to relax in a familiar setting where they can let their mind drift with their imagination -- using the game as inspiration.

Elitists of any type seem to forget that about gaming. If you like this game, then you should want the best for the game's success and the devs. The answer is for the game to do well. If a game is well made and has the right set of options, most players will be able to find a set of options and difficulty levels that provides the Darkest Dungeon experience they can enjoy. The more successful the game, the more likely the people who created the game you like will make more games, yay. Otherwise, oops, nay.

Or are we now saying there should only be one type of solitaire and one type of poker and one meal that is always the same, yadda yadda. Even the best chef, allows for someone who is diabetic and those who are not. For those who can't have salt and those who can -- it's easy to alter the recipe slightly when you understand cooking and either way it will taste good. It won't taste exactly the same, but it will taste good -- or else maybe that chef isn't as good or as caring about cooking for others than they pretend they are.

Since when is gaming some sort of advocacy for totalitarianism? <chuckle> Gaming is something done in one's free time, freely enjoying one's one choice of game. A dev may want to make something only for himself, but then he doesn't go around marketing it without the perspective of entertaining others or there is no point. Goodbye programming career, buh-bye word of mouth, sayonara good will and the intent of spreading joy and a memorable experience. (And please don't throw some Ayn Rand at me, she herself always showed the consequences of such decisions -- if you want to go it alone, be prepared to be alone when they fully sink in)

Just a counterpoint. Anybody can run straight into a brick wall and call it art or the search for truth. It's still running straight into a brick wall with all the pain associated with it.