Talos and Vulkan Q & A

[DEN [CT]]

Q: What is this Vulkan, anyway?

A: Vulkan is a great new graphics programming interface that has much less overhead compared to previous APIs like Direct3D 9, 11 or OpenGL.


Q: Oh, so it's like Direct3D 12?

A: Quite like it, but portable, and not restricted to Windows 10 OS.


Q: I see. Like Apple Metal?

A: That too. But again, portable, and not restricted to iOS and OS X.


Q: So, it's like Mantle then?

A: Right again. But portable, not restricted to just one GPU vendor. And Mantle is pretty much gone. It served its purpose to get things started and I think that a lot of Mantle is now incorporated into Vulkan.


Q: Uh! Let's try this one more time. What's Vulkan again?

A: A PORTABLE low-level graphics API, that works across many GPU vendors (NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, Qualcomm, PowerVR...) and OSes (Windows, Linux, Android).


Q: That's better. Now, why was Vulkan support added to Talos?

A: Good question! We (Croteam) firmly believe that Vulkan is really the best low(est)-level API there can be. Fast and portable!
Yes, it has downside(s). For one, it's quite hard to program for. You have to do a lot of things manually, instead of relying on drivers to do the work for you. This is both good and bad at the same time. Good for performance reasons, because driver doesn't assume what game wants to render (I won't go into any more details here, sorry). Bad because there's a lot more coding and in general, it's a more complex approach. You better know what you're doing, because you won't get any help from the driver. You're on your own.
It's really great to have that much control. IF you know what you're doing!


Q: So, we can expect new super-duper graphics effects and more explosions?

A: No, this is graphics _programming_ interface, not effects designer. The Talos Principle will look exactly the same as on other gfx APIs (Direct3D 9 and 11, and OpenGL). At least it should. Otherwise it's a bug! Except if it looks better û then we'll just call it a feature. :)


Q: Why should I try it, or buy it?

A: First, because The Talos Principle is a great game! Believe me - I've played it! :)
On a more serious note, we (Croteam) are kinda expecting your assistance to find bugs and performance issues with different GPUs. We were only able to test the game with a few cards and we would like to know û how does it run on your end?


Q: I'm a beta tester? Again? For free?

A: Well, yes. But only if you want to be. We (Croteam) really need some more assistance from our great community because, well, programming Vulkan is very complex! I'm still not sure if I did everything right. Our entire GPU department was hard at work for three whole months. It's that hard!
Or maybe there's something in the fact that our GPU department is comprised of just one guy. It's me! Hi!


Q: So, OpenGL is dead?

A: No, not at all. For simple games, OpenGL (or Direct3D for that matter) is here to stay; learning curve is not that steep as with Vulkan. However, Vulkan really shines when it comes to reducing application and driver CPU overhead. It is (or will be) much faster than Direct3D 9, 11 and OpenGL!


Q: Then I can expect some great benchmark results?

A: Not so fast! Sorry. :( This is a beta phase, and there's still work to be done from our (Croteam) side and IHVs from driver side. But please be patient: in time, after optimizations are done, Vulkan will be faster, I'm sure.


Q: Really?

A: Let me put it this way: When The Talos Principle came out, it had a very similar frame rate in DirectX 9 vs DX 11. But then we optimized the game, and the drivers were optimized in the meantime, and now D3D11 is 20-30% faster than D3D9! I have a firm belief that this will also happen to Vulkan vs D3D11, over time However, for now you can actually expect lower frame-rate compared to D3D11. C'mon, it's brand new API, give it some time. :)


Q: Cut to the chase, please!

A: Ok, first, in GPU-bound scenarios (ultra settings, resolution higher than full HD), you'll see lower performance, 20 to 30% lower. This is work in progress, and we (both Croteam and IHVs) are analyzing and optimizing the performance. We'll get to the bottom of this!


Q: And CPU-bound scenarios?

A: Same or a bit faster. But for now, those scenarios really have to be super-CPU-bound. Like, rendering whole levels, without any help from visibility system, frustum, distance or occlusion culling.


Q: That bad, a?

A: Well, not that much. At least, this is how I tested when wanted to see what Vulkan can do.


Q: I think I've been patient enough - can I go and benchmark now?

A: Yes, you can. But I repeat - don't have high hopes. At least not for now.


Q: Good, finally. Ok, what do I need?

A: Well, drivers. They should be available from nVidia and AMD. Download, install, run, duck'n'cover. :)


Q: Should I reboot the system after installing drivers?

A: I'm not sure, but better reboot. With Windows, if you're in doubt - reboot!


Q: nVidia, AMD, AMD, nVidia... wait! What about Intel?!

A: Driver should be available soon. We're still trying to test it and make it run well. Or just make it run, for that matter.


Q: That's all?

A: No, you also need to run 64-bit version of The Talos Principle.


Q: Wait, what? No support for 32-bit?

A: No. 64-bit is the future. And present!


Q: Will there be Vulkan support for 32-bit version of the game?

A: Probably not.


Q: How should I...?

A: If you installed driver correctly, there should be "Vulkan (beta)" in graphics API menu under Options->Graphics options. When you select it you'll get a warning message that you'll loose your warranty. Well, not exactly that, but it's kinda message to expect, well, anything!


Q: Anything, ok, anything. Anything...else?

A: Well... the game could crash or lock up here and there. But that's why we have you, folks - to report it, here in forum, attaching log files and info and everything... You know the drill, don't you? ;)


Q: Wait! There's no Vulkan support in my version of The Talos Principle?

A: You should opt-in for public beta.
To install the beta, do this:
- locate the game in the Steam's "Library" panel
- right click and invoke "Properties"
- select the "Betas" tab
- choose "publicbeta"


Q: Almost forgot - what about minimum and recommended specs to run Talos under Vulkan?

A: Oh, yes, you're right - that's important! Here:

OS: Windows 7, 8.1 or 10 (Linux later)
RAM: 8 GB (16 GB just in case)
GPU: latest generation (or one previous gen)
(NV: 770 or better, 960 or better, could work on 600 but haven't tested;
AMD: 7970, 280 or better, 370 or better, Fury)
VRAM: 1 GB (not so sure about this, better have 2 GB at least)
SOUND: doesn't matter, Vulkan is for graphics!


Q: Windows XP?

A: Probably not, sorry.


Q: Vista?

A: HAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!! No! (Well, I wouldn't be surprise if it actually runs OK under Vista x64, but I'll be definately surprised that you have Vista in the first place!)


Q: Will Vulkan or The Talos Principle break my system?

A: No. I don't think so. Hopefully not. If/when something goes wrong, either the game will crash, or the driver itself. But no BSOD. It shouldn't happen. But don't take my word for it; go ahead - try it for yourselves, try it, go, go... :)


Q: It BSOD my system, you lying little person! What now?

A: Soooory. My bad. No, not mine. Driver's! ;)
For real, if it really BSODs couple of times, don't test anymore. No point.


Q: Oy! Talos freezes after some minutes in game.

A: Let me guess... you have Windows 10 and nVidia graphic card?


Q: Yes.

A: Well, it kinda does that from time to time. We're still investigatin the issue... Sorry again.


Q: Sorry, ok, but what should I do?

A: This could be releated to occlusion culling.


Q: Occlusion what...?

A: Culling. Nevermind, just write these console variables and it should help.
ren_bOcclusionCulling=0
shb_bOcclusionCulling=0
crm_bOcclusionCulling=0
efx_iLensFlareQuality=0
(Game will run a bit slower, though.)

Q: Console? Variables?

A: You're not power user, I'm guessing...?


Q: Well, no.

A: Console can be invoked with F1 or ~ key. And then you can write to set some settings for the game.


Q: Oooo, I see...

A: Good!


Q: I just benchmarked it. FPS is lower than D3D, why?

A: I told you so. In time... good things come to those who wait. :)


Q: Oh, almost forgot - how about Linux version?

A: Soon! It's still in a bit development and more testing needs to be done.


Q: Thank you.

A: No, thank you! In advance! For testing!


Q: Anyone else?

A: Of course! Thanks goes to all great folks at nVidia, AMD, Khronos, LunarG, Valve and RenderDoc!
Without them, I would have one triangle rendered on screen by now. Small triangle. Maybe. With errors. And wrong color. :)

Yours truly,

Dean

[Calabeza]

Thanks for clearing that up, I'm glad your original statement still stands true.
Also, big yes for that smoother Fusion intergration, if possible.

[Spleen]

I'm so hyped for fusion engine! Hopefully, frustum culling (or whatever method) will finally stop introducing pop-ins and white artifacts when you jerk your virtual camera obruptly, it was mucho annoying when I was playing the game in 2016.

[mphuZ]

Originally posted by AlenL:

Talos will just be an update over the current app.

Cool! Can`t wait! Any ETA?

[Ray tracing is faster]

Dayum

[Lastique]

I've not been playing Talos for about a year and decided to install it again tonight to see how Vulkan progress is going. And I have two problems to report.

First and foremost, the game crashes immediately on the start in OpenGL mode. Here's the log:

https://gist.github.com/Lastique/de2e7270dcb6afc3e50bcdc6e6a3c153

I tried deleting the config file just in case something from the old one causes the crash. It didn't help, the game crashes anyway and it doesn't re-create the config file. The game starts in the safe mode though.

Fortunately, I had a local backup of my Vulkan config. The game starts with that one. The game runs smoothly with Vulkan, and I can now change graphics settings without the black screen bug, so that's good. But unfortunately I can see tearing even though V-sync in the settings is turned on. The V-sync parameter does help because I can see much more tearing with it disabled, but it doesn't remove tearing completely. I suspect, this may be related to the fact that I have two displays attached, the game running on the main one.

[⚜ Gucky]

Originally posted by Lastique:

...The game starts in the safe mode though.

@Lastique
I've made a Talos Vulcan Guide, where you might find some help:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1179867394

I recomend not to use the v-sync setting when using vulcan atm.

One thing about mutiple screens: If you stream the game over steam link to you local TV/Beamer, then I would recommend to disable all connected screens, so that only one resulution get's broadcasted to the steam link. For me it works not quite smootly on steam link with vulcan in FullHD Resolution.

[Lastique]

@[KoFD] Gucky
Thanks, but unfortunately, I don't speak German.

Regarding V-sync, I find tearing unbearable in general, so playing without V-sync is not an option for me. Vulkan with V-sync still looks better than without it, so I will keep it that way for now.

Also, I have no SteamLink. Just two displays attached to the videocard.

[MasterOfPuppets_Linux]

Can someone help me?

I'm on Mint 18.3 and with Talos Principle 64 bit Vulkan i'm experiencing game hard lock-up.

Nvidia Gtx 1050 4 gb , Nvidia 390.25 driver.

I have also Nvidia bug report log if you want.

As a note : I'm playing Doom 2016 Vulkan via Wine Staging and it is not happening with Doom.

[strider_sp]

Phenom II @ 3.6GHz
8GB RAM 1333
R9 380 4GB - driver 17.12.1 (first adrenalin release)
Windows 7
2560x1080 21:9 freesync 40~75Hz
1TB HDD

Two runs of one minute, the first usually starts with some slowdown. Almost everything in ultra. When I first played this game one year ago there was some difference between vulkan and dx11, now it is hard to perceive that... or is just freesync kicking in :)

06:23:29 INF: Gfx API: Vulkan
06:23:29 INF: Duration: 60.0 seconds (3105 frames)
06:23:29 INF: Average: 51.7 FPS (52.9 w/o extremes)
06:23:29 INF: Extremes: 148.5 max, 8.5 min
06:23:29 INF: Sections: AI=5%, physics=1%, sound=1%, scene=79%, shadows=11%, misc=3%
06:23:29 INF: Highs: 276 in 3.6 seconds (76.6 FPS)
06:23:29 INF: Lows: 424 in 11.0 seconds (38.7 FPS)
06:23:29 INF: 30-60 FPS: 76%
06:23:29 INF: > 60 FPS: 24%


06:24:46 INF: Gfx API: Vulkan
06:24:46 INF: Duration: 60.0 seconds (3088 frames)
06:24:46 INF: Average: 51.5 FPS (52.4 w/o extremes)
06:24:46 INF: Extremes: 144.7 max, 23.1 min
06:24:46 INF: Sections: AI=5%, physics=1%, sound=1%, scene=78%, shadows=11%, misc=3%
06:24:46 INF: Highs: 372 in 4.6 seconds (81.3 FPS)
06:24:46 INF: Lows: 484 in 12.9 seconds (37.7 FPS)
06:24:46 INF: 20-30 FPS: 1%
06:24:46 INF: 30-60 FPS: 75%
06:24:46 INF: > 60 FPS: 25%



06:26:21 INF: Gfx API: Direct3D11
06:26:21 INF: Duration: 60.0 seconds (3199 frames)
06:26:21 INF: Average: 53.3 FPS (54.1 w/o extremes)
06:26:21 INF: Extremes: 95.4 max, 26.4 min
06:26:21 INF: Sections: AI=5%, physics=1%, sound=1%, scene=79%, shadows=10%, misc=3%
06:26:21 INF: Highs: 560 in 8.4 seconds (66.6 FPS)
06:26:21 INF: Lows: 553 in 13.0 seconds (42.5 FPS)
06:26:21 INF: 30-60 FPS: 75%
06:26:21 INF: > 60 FPS: 25%


06:27:38 INF: Gfx API: Direct3D11
06:27:38 INF: Duration: 60.0 seconds (3186 frames)
06:27:38 INF: Average: 53.1 FPS (53.8 w/o extremes)
06:27:38 INF: Extremes: 76.7 max, 22.6 min
06:27:38 INF: Sections: AI=5%, physics=1%, sound=1%, scene=79%, shadows=10%, misc=3%
06:27:38 INF: Highs: 552 in 8.3 seconds (66.3 FPS)
06:27:38 INF: Lows: 540 in 12.8 seconds (42.3 FPS)
06:27:38 INF: 30-60 FPS: 76%
06:27:38 INF: > 60 FPS: 23%

[mphuZ]

Hi!
Already known time when the TTP transferred on Serious Engine 2017/2018?

[agrimes]

Anyone else not seeing the HUD when in vulkan mode? Things like the sigil count, jump guidance, and other on-screen information is not displayed in Vulkan mode. (linux).

[Wuffyhumps]

Originally posted by agrimes:

Anyone else not seeing the HUD when in vulkan mode? Things like the sigil count, jump guidance, and other on-screen information is not displayed in Vulkan mode. (linux).

No issue with HUD here, can see the puzzle pieces in the upper left corner, etc, on the 64-bit version under Vulkan.

[Ferra ORA ORA ORA DE BAILAR CUMB]

i am here just to get the insignia, but this is a great game.

[isolated1]

I noticed it stutters and the FPS drops a bit more under Vulkan, but overall I run the Vulkan version 2 fps faster in my chosen graphics settings in 2560 x 1440. When will the Vulkan support be finished and out of beta? It's been in beta form for a long time. I hope final Vulkan support will be present in this and Serious Sam Fusion before SS4 comes out? Thanks.

[THE DEATH]

hi,
can i unsuscribe?....
Ah i see how. Nevermind.