A Hat in Time

A Hat in Time

View Stats:
A Hat in Time > General Discussion > Topic Details
Can we not fight for even a few seconds about this flag issue? And instead....
Ask the other side why they do or don't like the Trans Flag in this game?

Here, I'll start the conversation.

Personally it adds nothing to the narrative of the story, and is entirely forced into it and does not fit into this sort of fictional game, universe and setting. I don't believe it belongs because it's trying to make a statement in a otherwise very solid and enjoyable game.

It adds nothing meaningful to the game that directly impacts the story, character or the world in a way that benefits the game itself. It's throw in to be a political statement and it's only harming the games integrity and obvious dividing the community. This honestly seems like a social experiment to me where the devs did this to start fights between their playbase and that just seems very...manipulative and is not a healthy way for devs to go about treating their player base.

You don't see platforming games from the 90s and early 2000s (such as Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, Jak and Daxter, Crash Bandicoot and others like them) pulling stunts like this. They were all around solid games that were believable within the worlds they created and didn't force agenda's and ideologies that existed within our own world. Or ones that did but were fitting for the story and narrative and were never forced upon the player and took them out of the experience.


Now, why don't either side of this try and be civil about this. Otherwise you know what's going to happen? This games community and support will suffer, if it already hasn't.

Talk about something in a civil way, ask more then demand. You want change? Then find alternative ways to get there. Neither side is going to be listened to when they are both screaming at the other and plugging their ears in denial.

Games Industry (mostly the AAA space) is suffering enough with these sorts of arguments and petty bickering, and now Indie games are taking the plunge too. Based on my reasons I don't believe the game devs should have included this political flag into this otherwise solid game, but I an't going to attack the other side over it like what I've been seeing so far on here.
Originally posted by Austastic:
I agree with OP. Not only does the flag feel unnecessary to the environment, but also forced and silly. I would believe the same about even a real-world country's flag appearing in this game, as opposed to a game whose setting is intended to be realistic. Real-world flags carry both very real symbolism and very real adult issues, and this is the point of a flag. They are exclusive, not inclusive, segregative, not integrative, both latters of which the developers should be striving for, rather than the formers.

My experience witnessing the two graffiti flags was only a couple seconds each, if not less, and I only returned to the thought of them maybe once after completing the DLC hours after its release. The negativity of my experience has nothing to do with being butt-hurt, nor does it stem from any form of hatred, but simply from confusion toward the developers. Would they expect the implementation to affect the audience positively, or was it done to get a rise? Only they know their intentions, and, while such a minimal inclusion, it is likely the most vocal. It reflects on the developers and causes many consumers to assume they have an agenda, where an agenda should not be.

I'm certainly not taking the time to swoon over five lines on a wall, other than indulging myself here for these few minutes to share, but those couple of seconds seeing them in a game with both child protagonist and antagonist, again, felt unnecessary, forced, and silly.
< >
Showing 1-15 of 107 comments
Knox May 13 @ 11:24pm 
It doesn't need to add anything to the story since it is a mere backdrop decoration. It's graffiti. The "trans flag" in and of itself is not a political statement, if it had an accompanying motto such as "trans rights" then it would be political, and even then the developers are free to add any kind of political message they please into their game. If you do not like it, simply avoid supporting it. The trans-flag isn't even forced upon you, it's completely missable unless you're actively looking for it and the graffiti itself can be removed by turning off 'Decals.'

A Hat in Time is not Banjo-Kazooie, it isn't Crash Bandicoot, it's not Jak and Daxter. It's not any of those games. It's a homage to platformers, a "love letter" to them, not a complete replication of the formula like what Yooka-Laylee tried to be (and failed). In an interview between Destructiod and Jonas Kærlev, Kærlev even said himself that they wanted the game to be more than just a platformer, they wanted players to feel like they were a part of a living, breathing world.

I think this whole thing is dumb, honestly. That's all I care to say about it because the reasoning behind disliking the inclusion of the transsexual flag in every other forum so far has been rather petty.
Last edited by Knox; May 13 @ 11:35pm
Cirno May 13 @ 11:27pm 
I prefer to just let everyone whine and moan about it. It's more fun.
Last edited by Cirno; May 13 @ 11:27pm
RedSage May 13 @ 11:34pm 
A perfectly reasonable sounding OP? We can't have that! /s

But seriously, no matter how eloquently you explain your reasoning on why you think the flag being in the game was a bad idea, the thread will always just end up being derailed/lead to flame wars, so it's honestly a losing battle for both sides.
Daragoth May 13 @ 11:36pm 
Originally posted by RedSage:
A perfectly reasonable sounding OP? We can't have that! /s

But seriously, no matter how eloquently you explain your reasoning on why you think the flag being in the game was a bad idea, the thread will always just end up being derailed/lead to flame wars, so it's honestly a losing battle for both sides.
At least I tried. Guess that's more I can say then more...


Originally posted by Cirno:
I prefer to just let everyone whine and moan about it. It's more fun.

Ya. Can understand your position on this.

Was worth a try after all. *shrugs*
Everything gotta be political these days, and if you just want to ignore that or don't want these issues in videogames, you will be called a nazi or transphobe or something, and removing the flag (to remove the controversy) is somehow similar to silencing Lincoln on issue of emancipation.
Don't worry, there's always something to complain about, if they can't find a reason, they make one up, and push their agendas onto others, such as pushing it onto Pubs & Devs.

I can careless what flag they put in the game, as it has zero affect on the game itself.
Daragoth May 14 @ 12:00am 
Originally posted by Queen Knox:
It doesn't need to add anything to the story since it is a mere backdrop decoration. It's graffiti. The "trans flag" in and of itself is not a political statement, if it had an accompanying motto such as "trans rights" then it would be political, and even then the developers are free to add any kind of political message they please into their game. If you do not like it, simply avoid supporting it. The trans-flag isn't even forced upon you, it's completely missable unless you're actively looking for it and the graffiti itself can be removed by turning off 'Decals.'

A Hat in Time is not Banjo-Kazooie, it isn't Crash Bandicoot, it's not Jak and Daxter. It's not any of those games. It's a homage to platformers, a "love letter" to them, not a complete replication of the formula like what Yooka-Laylee tried to be (and failed). In an interview between Destructiod and Jonas Kærlev, Kærlev even said himself that they wanted the game to be more than just a platformer, they wanted players to feel like they were a part of a living, breathing world.

I think this whole thing is dumb, honestly. That's all I care to say about it because the reasoning behind disliking the inclusion of the transsexual flag in every other forum so far has been rather petty.

So the first part of your points are a bit flawed. Since what does the trans-flag represent? Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't it represent the political movement for trans-people to have trans rights?
Iconography can have meaning without words being explicitly stated. Iconography uses implicit meaning to convey a message, statement or in such cases as the trans-flag, a agenda.

Hat in Time is not those games, you are correct. However it is part of a genre of games that those I listed both started, built upon and formed into what we see it as today. Hat in Time is a platforming game. Something that Crash Bandicoot relied heavily on. It's also a collectathon, which games like Banjo Kazooie, Jak and Daxter and even Spyro both were based in and created a core foundation for games like Hat in Time to work off of.

Being a love letter and being a replication are two different things yes, but saying Hat in Time isn't using their formula is entirely inaccurate. Since Hat in Time still has fundamental core game mechanics seen in those other games. It even has voice acting, just like those other games.

Also Yooka-Laylee was a copy and paste for Banjo Kazooie for sure, but it's also using the same formula as Hat in Time and both are using formulas from the predecessors.

The reasoning there is push back about this isn't because it's "petty" and claiming such does show that one side or the other is unwilling to hear out the side they don't agree with. It's this closed mindness that leads to fights we are now seeing in this game and it's player base.

Also it might not be "forced" onto the player through story, but it's still forced into the games setting, world and lore when it's not organic in the slightest. Which is what people have taken a problem with. When it's not organic and does not fitting the setting, characters or world then people don't appreciate it. I can understand why people feel it's being force down their throats. It takes them out of the experience and the game. It breaks the suspension of disbelief because it's something from our own world that does not fit within the realm of the game.

Last edited by Daragoth; May 14 @ 12:01am
Daragoth May 14 @ 12:26am 
As a sort of a addendum to my last post:
Graffiti is something vandals do. Maybe that wasn't the word you meant to use, but you did use it.

If it is intended though as graffiti by the game devs, this does not bod well for the trans community. Since it depicts them as law breaking vandals who deface property and structures to as their way of protesting. Which defacing (in this case graffiti) is considered a form of aggressive or even violent protesting. Since it's causing harm to someone or something to create change or force it.
Last edited by Daragoth; May 14 @ 12:26am
Alright, we want to have a civil discussion, then I pose this question. How is this in anyway being forced? As i played for well over 5 hours the day the dlc dropped just to have fun in Nyakuza, not once did the flag show up. It is well out of the way and hidden away enough that it's easily missable. This isn't something, like say, suddenly we have a time rift story of Hat Kid being trans, or a trans character becoming the main focus out of nowhere without any showing of said character. Those are forced moments. But for this, unless you perform the acts to see this one instance, you can easily play the game with it never coming up, never existing. So, in what plausible way is this being forced down anyone's throats?

That's just the issue with this discussion. The constant screams of "Political agenda!" and "It's forced in my game!" There's no sign in here that says "Support trans rights! Insert some number law here affecting trans!" A flag to support a sector of people is only as political as people make it. I see, say "Oh cool, they support trans. Oh look, a new sticker!" and move on with my game. I don't have to feel an affect on my time with the game in any way, shape, or form.

The common thing I see is "the immersion." but have people ever stopped to think about how much our games have real life images within them all the time for no reasons. Many ideas within the game are inspired by things from our real life. Do people forget the term "easter egg" within gaming. Many games have had random pictures, or scenes that serve no purpose other then "I can." If something as simple as colors of a flag break your immersion, that's out of the way(cause that has to keep being reminded to people), that's just sad imo and makes me believe there's an inner reason one would be upset over the symbol rather then simply immersion.

My two cents of it all. Maybe i'm past the point of letting things bother me, but if it doesn't do any actual harm in it's existence, it can be in my book.
In all fairness, maybe it should've been better hidden away.

Now, I'm not saying I'm transphobic (peck, I've got a good friend and a family member who are both trans, the former of whom has to very regularly deal with harrassment and frequent verbal abuse over being trans and nothing else) but I do think it should've been hidden away, maybe even placed in the same location as the Wowza sticker or even somewhere hard to find.

There's two reasons for this: firstly it remains in the game as a friendly nod towards trans people and secondly it makes the hate-slinging people even harder to take seriously and even easier to laugh at in their ineptitude, because then they would've had to actually go out of their way to find it and therefore continue making a fuss about it like they are now.

Also, let's be honest: I keep seeing the same names, who are unsurprisingly toxic people, making a fuss over it (starin' disdainfully at you, allergic to melanin), so at this point I'd rather not feed those kinds of people the fuel they need to continue these frankly unnecessary flame wars.
Not like they're gonna want to stop this dumpster fire any time soon, however.
Last edited by ManeGunner6; May 14 @ 3:29am
Daragoth May 14 @ 5:31am 
Originally posted by Reona Tsnagari:
That's just the issue with this discussion. The constant screams of "Political agenda!" and "It's forced in my game!" There's no sign in here that says "Support trans rights! Insert some number law here affecting trans!" A flag to support a sector of people is only as political as people make it. I see, say "Oh cool, they support trans. Oh look, a new sticker!" and move on with my game. I don't have to feel an affect on my time with the game in any way, shape, or form.

Well I guess I just want to point out how claiming that everyone who doesn't agree with it is "screaming" isn't doing anyone favors. It just shows one side it unwilling to listen to the other and just perpetuates the fighting and bickering more and more, further and further. Instead of pointing fingers and taking the low road, I think people should try to ask "Why does that bother you?" "How could they have done it differently?" "Do you think they could have included it within the game without it being forced and instead made it more organic?". All more meaningful and constructive questions. First step to stopping the fighting is to try and see things from the opposite viewpoint. In short, take the high road.

I also already touched on in my last post prior to yours that you can have something not use words and still carry a meaning. Implicit instead of explicit.



Originally posted by Reona Tsnagari:
The common thing I see is "the immersion." but have people ever stopped to think about how much our games have real life images within them all the time for no reasons. Many ideas within the game are inspired by things from our real life. Do people forget the term "easter egg" within gaming. Many games have had random pictures, or scenes that serve no purpose other then "I can." If something as simple as colors of a flag break your immersion, that's out of the way(cause that has to keep being reminded to people), that's just sad imo and makes me believe there's an inner reason one would be upset over the symbol rather then simply immersion.


I'd like to try and again point out that this game is fiction and in no way is tied to "real life". I don't see how that point has baring on this topic. If you could elaborate that would be useful.

Onto the Easter Egg thing, this really isn't a "easter egg" though. It adds no comedic value (the cardboard cut out from Halo 3 or the Special ending to Halo 1 comes to mind), it adds nothing meaningful that adds to the narrative that rewards the player for finding such a thing.

Easter Eggs are things that reward the player yes, but usually in a way that adds to the experience. Such as a fun cut scene, funny joke that relates to the devs or something the player worked for to reach with the help of their friend (such as the aforementioned Halo 3 thing). This flag does none of that really. It's not a Easter Egg in the concept of what that is.

Which is why I believe those against it (including myself as I stated in my original post) are wishing it hadn't been added.

Plus when people want something changed within a video game, speaking about it publicly is the only way they are given. They aren't on the dev team, and they don't have a direct line to the team. By bashing them and calling them all the nasty slurs in the book, people could have tried asking for more constructive feedback. Like I gave examples of above.

If you want people to listen to what you have to say, you first have to be willing to listen to them. It's a game of give and take.
Daragoth May 14 @ 5:34am 
Originally posted by ManeGunner6:
In all fairness, maybe it should've been better hidden away.

Now, I'm not saying I'm transphobic (peck, I've got a good friend and a family member who are both trans, the former of whom has to very regularly deal with harrassment and frequent verbal abuse over being trans and nothing else) but I do think it should've been hidden away, maybe even placed in the same location as the Wowza sticker or even somewhere hard to find.

The fact you had to say you aren't those things like a disclaimer, means that there is a serious problem with simply having a disagreement. That simply voicing a opposing opinion means you have to defend yourself before you can even say a word of your opinion.


Originally posted by ManeGunner6:
Also, let's be honest: I keep seeing the same names, who are unsurprisingly toxic people, making a fuss over it (starin' disdainfully at you, allergic to melanin), so at this point I'd rather not feed those kinds of people the fuel they need to continue these frankly unnecessary flame wars.
Not like they're gonna want to stop this dumpster fire any time soon, however.


From what I can tell, this originally was found and then posted on a Trans Reddit thread. So in all honestly, the Trans-Rights Political Movement were the ones to start making this public and bringing awareness to it. Not the other way around. But that's from what I've been able to find on how it started.
Last edited by Daragoth; May 14 @ 5:35am
RedSage May 14 @ 7:17am 
Kinda sad that the one reasonable thread with actual dialogue happening in it got buried, while the mudslinging dumpster fires keep going.

To respond to one thing, I don't see how people say it's hard to find. You literally just have to look up and it can be easily seen. Given it's above a hedge you have to climb to progress, I'm still not seeing how you miss it. I found it personally when checking the walls the for stickers/trying to get a better listen to what the cats in the window were saying.
Last edited by RedSage; May 14 @ 7:24am
Kaizo May 14 @ 7:31am 
When I started to read your statement, I agreed to disagree with you, but then I thought what you wrote was pretty solid and hence I am obligated to accept the opinion. Nevertheless, I don't really think they intended to manipulate their customers deliberately, but alas. I wish everyone was as reasonable against it as OP did.
I just think it's funny that most people both think games are art and that they shouldn't be censored, but a lot of those same people think that this goes too far. I remember people trying to say Bow Kid was forced diversity, but it didn't catch on. The "ethics of capitalism" is arguably more political; whether you agree that it should be in the game or not, no one really complained. It's almost like people that don't want it in because "politics don't belong" are saying so because they see a vocal minority complaining about it and want to stop any discord.
< >
Showing 1-15 of 107 comments
Per page: 15 30 50

A Hat in Time > General Discussion > Topic Details