Water container change seems random

[Marmarmar34]

I'll still play it, but it feels strange to change something that's working pretty well already.

[FT]

I think it's weird that the devs were previously (through A18 and A19) changing things to purposely make water easier, but now have decided to move in the opposite direction "to make water/thirst more of a challenge".

I could understand if they want it more difficult than A20/current but still easier than A18/19, however they're reversing the old changes AND making new changes in order to make it more challenging than previous versions instead of a balance between them.
It's like saying "74degrees is too warm, so I'll turn down to 70degrees...but now it's too cold, so I'll crank it to 80degrees...warmer than it originally was when I had previously complained about it being too warm in the first place! What?

Then they're adding a new DewCollector for the player to craft within the first few days that completely gets rid of thirst altogether. As soon as you can collect/sell $1500 worth of stuff (aka, a little more than a single book...something experienced players can do by day1-3) you can craft a magical drink station that completely negates thirst as a problem.

The devs are sending mixed messages here.
Do they want water to be easy or hard, and for whom?
The changes are making things about the same or a little easier for some players, but harder for some brand-new players, but less intuitive for all players.

[mathaniel]

What exactly does one put the water collected in the new collector, into, when it is collected? Hmmm?

[daggaz]

To be fair, the swimming pool in the backyard of my POI base completely negates thirst as well, and I didn't have to pay anything for it or even fish any zombies out first.

[Marmarmar34]

I feel empty jars could be used for so much more than just drinks. Like canning food or something. Fermenting vinegar or alchohol for either consumption or medical use.

[Mardoin69]

Yeah, it is quite a bit of a 'mixed message' when we try to make sense of what the Devs are going for. For this reason, I kind of just think 'Well, they wanted to try something new altogether.' Apparently, they were never happy with the system to begin with.....tried some changes....still didn't like it....and now trying a whole new approach. Have to wonder how much more they'll change this aspect of the game before they're happy with it. But, I'll roll with it. Hopefully, by the time they're done....it will have just the right amount of challenge to it without being an aggravating grind or useless feature.

[Marmarmar34]

I just hope they're not over thinking it. It's a dangerous trap to be stuck in. If I HAD to make a change, I guess I would make the water system a bit like Rust. Where you have water skins, bottles, and jugs with their own capacity for water. Jars could be their own thing entirely with a multitude of uses. Like containing tea, medical cream, alcohol, canned food, and so on.

[FT]

Originally posted by Marmarmar34:

I feel empty jars could be used for so much more than just drinks. Like canning food or something. Fermenting vinegar or alchohol for either consumption or medical use.

There used to be a few more medical items (blood draw kits, etc) and even bio-diesel/gas you could craft...though I can't remember now if any of them used jars/cans. I'm pretty sure the homemade gas used jars.

I can see where a lot of it ends up...superfluous.? But it could also be fun as alternatives or just additional bits of realism to engage with.

[FT]

Originally posted by daggaz:

To be fair, the swimming pool in the backyard of my POI base completely negates thirst as well, and I didn't have to pay anything for it or even fish any zombies out first.

Yeah, it's kinda switching from "spend your first day scouting out for a good location and cooking-pot" to "find a wrench to harvest $1500 worth of stuff for your first day's trader visit"....with a similar end-result that thirst isn't an issue from the start.
I've personally had some bad luck finding a wrench, but I've also had some bad luck in spawn-location and cooking-pot-finding.

Originally posted by mathaniel:

What exactly does one put the water collected in the new collector, into, when it is collected? Hmmm?

It also magically creates new jars, so it's effectively an infinite jar machine at a speed of 3X/dayXDewCollector for glue crafting if you're near a frozen-biome or wasteland (for infinite aggressive animal spawns for bones). Because jars will now appear whenever you need to carry water...unless you're trying to carry water from a lake or river or water-tower or pool. :(
Okay, so it's not going to be very consistent.
Sometimes you'll be able to see water there but you can't have it. Well, you'll be able to carry it in your hand to drink, but not anything else. Not to drink I mean...because you CAN carry it in a bucket, but that doesn't let you use it for drinking..or crafting.
I'm also pretty sure the bucket doesn't disappear after you dump out the water like jars do, so that's not super consistent either.
This change is a bit of a mess.

[Roland]

Originally posted by FT:

Then they're adding a new DewCollector for the player to craft within the first few days that completely gets rid of thirst altogether. As soon as you can collect/sell $1500 worth of stuff (aka, a little more than a single book...something experienced players can do by day1-3) you can craft a magical drink station that completely negates thirst as a problem.

You've got this all solved and minimized in theory and decided it is completely trivial. I'm excited for you to actually play it and see whether it really is as trivial as you seem to think it is. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised-- unless you want it to be trivial.

The devs are sending mixed messages here.
Do they want water to be easy or hard, and for whom?
The changes are making things about the same or a little easier for some players, but harder for some brand-new players, but less intuitive for all players.

You're only confused because you insist on being single-minded about the reason for the change. They want water to be be a surmountable challenge that is more involved than simply filling empty jars. They aren't trying to make water a day-35-horde-night-and-I-forgot-to-repair-my-defenses-but-I'm-still-going-to-defend-my-base level of challenge.

Instead, it makes murky water a more relevant part of the game as most players will find themselves needing to actually drink murky water for the first time ever. It creates an additional task/quest to get a dew collector built. Doing so isn't difficult like a T5 quest in a wasteland downtown area but it does add to the other tasks the player needs to do in the beginning.

Finally, the process of getting a dew collector factory going is a lot more fun than collecting a stack of empty jars. At least I've found it fun and I've restarted dozens of times now. I don't like the tutorial quest anymore but I do still like building the dew collector.

Perhaps a better word than "challenge" is "depth". The A21 changes add some depth of gameplay for a player wanting to square away their thirst needs and I believe they are targeting new, intermediate, and experienced players. No matter how easily you are able to get your dew collectors up and running it still isn't as easy and simplistic as the current method.

Originally posted by FT:

Yeah, it's kinda switching from "spend your first day scouting out for a good location and cooking-pot" to "find a wrench to harvest $1500 worth of stuff for your first day's trader visit"....with a similar end-result that thirst isn't an issue from the start.
I've personally had some bad luck finding a wrench, but I've also had some bad luck in spawn-location and cooking-pot-finding.

In all of my restarts I've never found a wrench in the first couple of days in A21. I'm sure some people will but then again some people may get a lucky water filter mod for their hat and then have zero thirst concerns ever for that particular game. What I do find pretty quickly are the magazines needed to craft a wrench. So you'll be hunting down mats to craft a wrench so you can harvest cars so you can buy a filter and build a dew collector. There just is no way to fully understand A21 when all you know are the loot tables of A20. I find myself crafting a lot more in A21 because often I can craft a thing before I actually find the thing. Of course, its random so it is always possible that wrench will drop day one. Even pots seem a bit more uncommon. I wouldn't call them rare but it isn't guaranteed that you will know the dew collector recipe, own a pot, and a wrench, and have all the mats for the dew collector all on Day One-- and even if you do, that is a very full Day one all dedicated to that one quest which puts you behind on everything else.

See? fun and engaging and much more to it than simply open cupboards in a few houses and come away with 12 empty jars that can be filled forever and water is solved.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Marmarmar34:

I'll still play it, but it feels strange to change something that's working pretty well already.

It worked well for what it was. The changes are something much more engaging and fun (imo). Hope you find it fun when you can get your hands on it! I definitely appreciate your willingness to give it a good try. :)

[Marmarmar34]

Originally posted by Roland:

Originally posted by Marmarmar34:

I'll still play it, but it feels strange to change something that's working pretty well already.

It worked well for what it was. The changes are something much more engaging and fun (imo). Hope you find it fun when you can get your hands on it! I definitely appreciate your willingness to give it a good try. :)

time will tell

[Loco]

Originally posted by Roland:

It worked well for what it was. The changes are something much more engaging and fun (imo). Hope you find it fun when you can get your hands on it! I definitely appreciate your willingness to give it a good try. :)

Change for the sake of change is never a good thing. This looks tedious and annoying, running back to a base to check a dozen or two dew collectors regularly is not my idea of fun.
Unless it's severely different than the videos and explanations, this will be something I mod within a week of its' release.

[mathaniel]

What I find most amusing is all the resistance to the change in the water no matter how many possibilities there may be for the change to add some actual fun or challenging play-ability to the game. Based on what? Just being obstinate. Don`t overthink it, just chill those jets and play it til the hubs rub when it drops. I`m ready to give er a go myself. Roland, I think more than a few with doubts will be surprised, won`t come back in here to say "I stand corrected" lol. Bring it TFP. I`m gittin older by the minute here fellers:-) Cheers

[Roland]

Originally posted by Loco:

Originally posted by Roland:

It worked well for what it was. The changes are something much more engaging and fun (imo). Hope you find it fun when you can get your hands on it! I definitely appreciate your willingness to give it a good try. :)

Change for the sake of change is never a good thing. This looks tedious and annoying, running back to a base to check a dozen or two dew collectors regularly is not my idea of fun.
Unless it's severely different than the videos and explanations, this will be something I mod within a week of its' release.

I agree that change for the sake of change is rarely a good thing. Its a good thing that wasn't the reason for the change. When you are developing a creative work whether that is a video game or a piece of art or a literary work or a music composition it always requires changes over time.

None of these changes were made simply for the sake of change. They were made to deepen gameplay or streamline gameplay or evoke an atmosphere or feeling or to bring balance to something that wasn't. That is what development is. This currently is the phase of development. You purchased a game still in this phase and that means there will be changes.

Not everyone is going to find these changes fun. I acknowledge that. All I can give is my experience based on play. You will have to find out your experience based on play. But....I will say that if you don't like running back and forth between locations to do repetitive tasks involving clicking your mouse button....why do you play in the first place....?

No matter...mod away if you so choose. Modability is one of the key features of this game. TFP doesn't see it as a threat but as a gift from them to the community. BTW, TFP has left the empty jars commented out in the code just to make it that much easier for ya if you decide to go that route.

[FT]

Originally posted by Roland:

BTW, TFP has left the empty jars commented out in the code just to make it that much easier for ya if you decide to go that route.

Is this a single line/paragraph that just needs the comment-out removed to reinstate reusable jars, or is the line you're talking about one of a few XML's that need to be tweaked in order to bring back reusable jars?

Not that I won't play A21 as-is/vanilla, but I'll probably want to at least offer reusable jars in my server and a simple XML tweak won't force the players into requiring mods or anything to join/play.