Why on earth is the Crucible unlocked at level 5 of Advanced Engineering?

[Rancid Raccoon]

Level 4 of Advanced Engineering allows you to "craft Forged Steel 25% faster" (Note: This is 1 level prior to when you unlock the Crucible, which is needed in order to actually CRAFT FORGED STEEL).

I also found a Robotic Turret schematic, but in order to craft it, I need level 5 of advanced engineering for the forged steel. But if I have level 5 of advanced engineering, then I can craft SMG turrets, making Robotic Turrets practically useless (other than being a cheaper alternative, but me being this late in my game, resources aren't a problem. XP and level unlocks are the problem).

It just feels like this game is seriously leaning to RNG looting rather than rewarding the player for unlocking crafting perks. Like you can buy forged steel and possibly a crucible itself from a trader, or magically find a crucible schematic while looting, but looting in general is so RNG heavy to the point that it's just straight up unreliable.

I've been playing a hella lot for probably 4 or 5 real-life days, and I have not found a crucible schematic in my entire playtime, or seen it in the trader inventory.

[Teresa]

You should also consider raising your better barter if you don't want to go to 5 in advanced engineering.

At level 3 bb you start to see crucibles at the trader even with a lower gamestage. If you go to level 4, they become common.

[Rancid Raccoon]

Still though, the BB perk doesn't really mention anything about raising chances of the trader having better loot, just increase the value of things you buy and sell (Not that I'm saying you're wrong, only that if it's true, it's kind of misleading to players like me who don't know the ins and outs of these things).

Also I still don't know why level four of AE has a park for Forged Steel when you can't even craft it till the next level. It's like it got reversed and you should really unlock the crucible at level four.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Mr Rotch:

Still though, the BB perk doesn't really mention anything about raising chances of the trader having better loot, just increase the value of things you buy and sell (Not that I'm saying you're wrong, only that if it's true, it's kind of misleading to players like me who don't know the ins and outs of these things).

Yes, it does. The levels of better barter very plainly and clearly say "Trader's secret stash shows better loot." "Traders secret stash shows even better loot", and finally "Trader's secret stash shows the best loot" at the various levels. You just have to actually read the description of the perk, I guess.

And Teresa was not wrong.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Mr Rotch:

Also I still don't know why level four of AE has a park for Forged Steel when you can't even craft it till the next level. It's like it got reversed and you should really unlock the crucible at level four.

You can craft forged steel at any time or level, when you buy or find a crucible. Crafting a crucible is not necessary, or the only route.

Originally posted by Mr Rotch:

It's like it got reversed and you should really unlock the crucible at level four.

No. It didn't get reversed. You just don't understand it. Some people like to buy a crucible early on, and immediately start crafting steel, instead of invest skill points.

[Teresa]

Raising better barter to 4/5 is also the ONLY way to get solar items unless you open the console and get them.

You'll also get much higher chance of t3 weapons, armor, and tools, as well as augers and chainsaws.

[Seftak]

Originally posted by Mr Rotch:

I also found a Robotic Turret schematic, but in order to craft it, I need level 5 of advanced engineering for the forged steel. But if I have level 5 of advanced engineering, then I can craft SMG turrets, making Robotic Turrets practically useless (other than being a cheaper alternative, but me being this late in my game, resources aren't a problem. XP and level unlocks are the problem).

Robotic turrets and SMG turrets are two totally different things... and you do not need a single level in anything to craft either of them.

You can find any of them in loot or their schematics. You can also gather steel in the world or loot it. I build all my steel stuff from looted, bought and harvested steel. I do not even have a forge...

[Teresa]

Except for converting your base to steel, it is fairly easy to obtain enough steel to craft a particular item.

You can buy steel from the trader. You can loot steel from several different containers.

You can also (and this is the optimal choice for me) harvest steel from many items with a wrench.

Certain street lights, non-working vending machines, and munitions boxes are where i commonly harvest steel.

[JimmyIowa]

Probably the best advice for OP - and I mean this constructively to be helpful - would be to actually read the text of the perks, like actually, for real, read, before complaining it makes no sense. Probably reading what the perk actually says would clear up a large percentage of the entirely self-made confusion you are struggling against.

[SylenThunder]

Originally posted by Mr Rotch:

Level 4 of Advanced Engineering allows you to "craft Forged Steel 25% faster" (Note: This is 1 level prior to when you unlock the Crucible, which is needed in order to actually CRAFT FORGED STEEL).

This is intended. You can find a crucible earlier, or get one from another player or trader, and still craft steel without level 5.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by SylenThunder:

Originally posted by Mr Rotch:

Level 4 of Advanced Engineering allows you to "craft Forged Steel 25% faster" (Note: This is 1 level prior to when you unlock the Crucible, which is needed in order to actually CRAFT FORGED STEEL).

This is intended. You can find a crucible earlier, or get one from another player or trader, and still craft steel without level 5.

Yeah; this. You can craft steel from the start of the game, the only thing preventing you from doing so is whether or not you have a crucible, which can be acquired from a number of different sources. One of those sources happens to be rank 5 of advanced engineering- But that is NOT the only way to get it.

Further, the +25% steel/electrical crafting speed is NOT the primary effect of the perk, but a secondary effect. The primary effect is the exp gain from electrical traps and the teaching of the recipes.

Much of the skill trees, book, and loot systems is about providing multiple paths to the same goal; You can learn the recipe from a book, or get it from your skill tree, or find the item in world, or buy it or the recipe from the trader.

[Jonnson]

Originally posted by Mr Rotch:

Level 4 of Advanced Engineering allows you to "craft Forged Steel 25% faster" (Note: This is 1 level prior to when you unlock the Crucible, which is needed in order to actually CRAFT FORGED STEEL).

I also found a Robotic Turret schematic, but in order to craft it, I need level 5 of advanced engineering for the forged steel. But if I have level 5 of advanced engineering, then I can craft SMG turrets, making Robotic Turrets practically useless (other than being a cheaper alternative, but me being this late in my game, resources aren't a problem. XP and level unlocks are the problem).

It just feels like this game is seriously leaning to RNG looting rather than rewarding the player for unlocking crafting perks. Like you can buy forged steel and possibly a crucible itself from a trader, or magically find a crucible schematic while looting, but looting in general is so RNG heavy to the point that it's just straight up unreliable.

I've been playing a hella lot for probably 4 or 5 real-life days, and I have not found a crucible schematic in my entire playtime, or seen it in the trader inventory.

Couple things to consider.

You can loot or buy a crucible before being able to make one (so, if you loot one early, you can forge steel w/o needing to train the perk-forged steel is used for alot more than the 1 example you are using). As far as the perk goes, the logic is that you learn how to use it (+25% faster) before you learn how to make it. Can you build a car before you know how one works?

SMG turrets are a different thing than robotic turrets, they are not an upgrade. SMG's need a power source and remain where you place them. Robotic turrets can be used as a ranged weapon in hand, and can be placed anywhere abroad, w/o power. You can say, place them outside of a poi before entering it, and fall back to them for fire support if you get overwhelmed, or use them to guard a mine. You carry them with you, they are mobile turrets.

In my experience, its best to choose what perks you learn based on what you need. What you need is reduced by what you find. Choosing a defined leveling path does not really work in this game, its more about learning what you need to learn. Each of your characters will be different as a result.

Don't rely on RNG, work with and around it.

[MechBFP]

The fact of that matter is that it makes no sense for the crucible to unlock so late for a gameplay perspective. It is impossible to get one earlier unless you were lucky enough to put points in better barter or play multiplayer and can get one from someone else, because it doesn't come up in loot until like game stage 100 or something long after you already have one. It should show up rarely in the traders even without better barter at the very least.

If you have to go onto forums and learn how to do something, the game is failing a very basic design principle.

[Lady MacBeth]

Originally posted by MechBFP:

The fact of that matter is that it makes no sense for the crucible to unlock so late for a gameplay perspective. It is impossible to get one earlier unless you were lucky enough to put points in better barter or play multiplayer and can get one from someone else, because it doesn't come up in loot until like game stage 100 or something long after you already have one. It should show up rarely in the traders even without better barter at the very least.

If you have to go onto forums and learn how to do something, the game is failing a very basic design principle.

Fun fact, the loot system isn't done. Traders will be scaling to game stage soon. Meaning I don't think you will be able to get ahold of one period till game stage 100+ I bet if you don't take the perk. We will see how they balance it, but thats my prediction.

Well I guess thats not entirely true. They are doing game stage multipliers for desert, snow, and wasteland in a20. So you can probably loot one around GS 50 in snow or wasteland if they keep with the numbers they discussed in last live stream of a 2x multiplier for snow, and a 3x multiplier for wasteland. But wasteland will have radiation and you will be fighting enemies scaled to 3x your game stage so....

[Jonnson]

Hm, stop expecting the flaming sword at level 1.

[SylenThunder]

Originally posted by Ming:

Originally posted by MechBFP:

The fact of that matter is that it makes no sense for the crucible to unlock so late for a gameplay perspective. It is impossible to get one earlier unless you were lucky enough to put points in better barter or play multiplayer and can get one from someone else, because it doesn't come up in loot until like game stage 100 or something long after you already have one. It should show up rarely in the traders even without better barter at the very least.

If you have to go onto forums and learn how to do something, the game is failing a very basic design principle.

Fun fact, the loot system isn't done. Traders will be scaling to game stage soon. Meaning I don't think you will be able to get ahold of one period till game stage 100+ I bet if you don't take the perk. We will see how they balance it, but thats my prediction.

Well I guess thats not entirely true. They are doing game stage multipliers for desert, snow, and wasteland in a20. So you can probably loot one around GS 50 in snow or wasteland if they keep with the numbers they discussed in last live stream of a 2x multiplier for snow, and a 3x multiplier for wasteland. But wasteland will have radiation and you will be fighting enemies scaled to 3x your game stage so....

Some POI's will have a multiplier as well. Do note that the increase in gamestage for looting, also means an increase in gamestage for the zombies in the building as well. So doing a Shotgun messiah factory from day 1 might not give you stone tools, but with the increased difficulty you may take a couple of days to get through it. Preventing your ability to cheat your way to the rewards is being looked into as well.

a20 is going to be a real gamechanger in more ways than one, so you should mentally prepare yourself now for having to put actual work into getting the good stuff.