Keen! Raknet PC netcode, or not!?

[VanGoghComplex]

We have an answer.

Please refer to the update video on 2/18 for specifics. Thanks, Keen! =)

Update: Now with More Update

Well, the stream's come and gone, and no mention of netcode was made. However, Dan did forward this thread along to the guys at KeenSWH, and he tells me that they will be getting back with us soon.

Fingers crossed. Knives sheathed.

Update

This morning (2/2) I asked our most excellent moderator, Dan2D3D, to bring this thread to Keen's attention. As Dan is excellent, it didn't surprise me too much when he told me he had already done so.

Keen is streaming today (2/2) at 7pm CET, or 12pm Central for those of us across the pond. Dan told me they'd be touching on the topic of netcode in that stream.

I won't be able to watch it, so I'd like to ask that anyone with a block of free time do so and update this thread. It would be most appreciated!

Original Post

This!

http://blog.marekrosa.org/2015/04/guest-post-by-ondrej-petrzilka-space_17.html?m=1

Originally posted by Article linked above:

In the current version of multiplayer, every client knows everything. When somebody is drilling 100.000 km away, the client gets this information from the server. It’s not necessary for the client to know it; the client should only get this information when he gets close to the drilled asteroid. In new multiplayer, clients will only receive information which is necessary and related to an area close to their position (or camera position in case they are looking through camera). This will reduce required bandwidth a lot; it will also allow many more players in the game (depending only on the server’s internet connection).

Information sent to the client will be prioritized; important things like position updates will have high priority. Less important things like battery capacity update or inventory changes will be sent with lower priority. This should reduce lags and make multiplayer more smooth.

Every client is now sending position updates to all other clients (it’s not going through server). This can reduce lag a little, but it also requires a bigger upload, because it’s necessary to send messages to every other client (not only to the server). It also makes connection issues much worse, because it’s necessary for each client to be connected to every other client. With more players on server, this issue has a much bigger impact.

In new multiplayer, the client won’t be connected to every other client, but only to the server. The server will validate data sent from the client (e.g. position updates) and send it only to other clients who need this information (clients who see the original client). This will prevent connection issues and reduce network bandwidth. It’s also a necessary step for increasing the number of players on server.

The current multiplayer uses the Steam Networking layer which allows us very easily to send data between players and it’s very easy to use. On the other hand it’s missing some advanced features. To get advanced features, we’ve decided to switch to RakNet. RakNet is a popular networking layer; it’s robust and it supports many platforms including Xbox, PlayStation, Linux, Android and other.

New multiplayer will work technically in a similar way to Halo Reach or the Tribes series (way of synchronizing objects and its properties). We’ve been working on the new multiplayer for a month now. The work will continue for at least several weeks or a few months before it’s done.

This does not appear to be happening.

If you've abandoned the multiplayer rewrite and are just planning on putting bandaids on the existing netcode, own up and admit it.

If you found out since this blog post that these ideas won't work, or something changed, that's fine! Things happen! Just tell your fans about it. Don't sit there silent and hope that we won't notice!

Are you guys reworking the netcode from scratch or not? Are we getting a real server-client build or are you just moving forward with the first-person-shooter peer to peer netcode you threw together in five weeks?

A lot of your players have been waiting on this fabled "new netcode!" Did you notice that? Have you seen that trend in all the forum-reading your moderators assure us that you actually do?

[G_Tugg]

Oh no he di'int

[Eric]

The following is from the developer's blog from 2 weeks ago:
http://blog.marekrosa.org/2016/01/the-ksh-roadmap-for-2016-space_14.html?m=1
One of our top priorities is to improve multiplayer. It is not only about network coding, but is also related to game logic optimizations. We are working on a method where we put all non-real-time game-logic in a secondary thread. For example, the computations for drilling/refinery/conveyors/oxygen won’t delay the main thread (which has to stay real-time). The reason is that players can always build crazily huge things which slow down the game (regardless of how much we optimize it), and if players perceive non-smooth movement, they think it’s a bug.

The development cycle of a game is complex, but its core idea does not differ from the development of the majority of products that are out on the market today. I will give you an example to understand this better. Let’s assume that you are producing a car. The first thing you do is assemble all necessary parts. After this phase is done, you take the car for a test drive. You identify any possible issues and then you fix them. After all issues are fixed and the car is functioning properly, you add the final touches – painting, polishing, etc. Then you are ready to start selling the car. The same principles apply to our games. Space Engineers is now in the phase where (nearly) all necessary parts have been assembled and we are ready to move to the major polishing and bug-fixing phase. This will probably be the longest and final bug-fixing period before the game is released in its final state.

The post did not confirm or deny that they were reworking the netcode from the ground up. However, they were discussing bringing optimizations to multiplayer in their polishing phase. Also, the current bugfixes might be a clue that they are cleaning uo the game in order to implement the new netcode.

[Chip Patton]

Originally posted by VanGoghComplex:

Keen, if you found out since this blog post that these ideas won't work, or something changed, that's fine! Things happen! Just tell your fans about it. Don't sit there silent and hope that we won't notice!

Are you guys reworking the netcode from scratch or not? Are we getting a real server-client build or are you just moving forward with the first-person-shooter peer to peer netcode you threw together in five weeks?

A lot of your players have been waiting on this fabled "new netcode!" Did you notice that? Have you seen that trend in all the forum-reading your moderators assure us that you actually do!?

This is way too plural for KSH, they just need to specify YES/NO (circle one) will PC get a FULL netcode rewrite?

Asking if they're reworking the netcode, the answer will be yes, because they are currently reworking it -- and applying bandaids as necessary from the ground up.

This is where we need to be careful. Marek is really bad at exploting these plural meanings to a community and then being allowed to get away with it because "English is not his first language". So, I suggest a more direct question that demands a black OR white answer.

Originally posted by Thinker222:

The following is from the developer's blog from 2 weeks ago:
http://blog.marekrosa.org/2016/01/the-ksh-roadmap-for-2016-space_14.html?m=1
One of our top priorities is to improve multiplayer. It is not only about network coding, but is also related to game logic optimizations. We are working on a method where we put all non-real-time game-logic in a secondary thread. For example, the computations for drilling/refinery/conveyors/oxygen won’t delay the main thread (which has to stay real-time). The reason is that players can always build crazily huge things which slow down the game (regardless of how much we optimize it), and if players perceive non-smooth movement, they think it’s a bug.

The development cycle of a game is complex, but its core idea does not differ from the development of the majority of products that are out on the market today. I will give you an example to understand this better. Let’s assume that you are producing a car. The first thing you do is assemble all necessary parts. After this phase is done, you take the car for a test drive. You identify any possible issues and then you fix them. After all issues are fixed and the car is functioning properly, you add the final touches – painting, polishing, etc. Then you are ready to start selling the car. The same principles apply to our games. Space Engineers is now in the phase where (nearly) all necessary parts have been assembled and we are ready to move to the major polishing and bug-fixing phase. This will probably be the longest and final bug-fixing period before the game is released in its final state.

The post did not confirm or deny that they were reworking the netcode from the ground up. However, they were discussing bringing optimizations to multiplayer in their polishing phase. Also, the current bugfixes might be a clue that they are cleaning uo the game in order to implement the new netcode.

And VanG remember, who warned the community about the plural meanings behind what I just underlined just 2 weeks ago when this came out and you said, "That could be one way to interpret it but I'm still hopeful"....

I'm not trying to rub salt in the wounds, I'm trying to reinforce that Marek is still up to his old games.

[VanGoghComplex]

Originally posted by Thinker222:

The following is from the developer's blog from 2 weeks ago:
http://blog.marekrosa.org/2016/01/the-ksh-roadmap-for-2016-space_14.html?m=1
One of our top priorities is to improve multiplayer. It is not only about network coding, but is also related to game logic optimizations. We are working on a method where we put all non-real-time game-logic in a secondary thread. For example, the computations for drilling/refinery/conveyors/oxygen won’t delay the main thread (which has to stay real-time). The reason is that players can always build crazily huge things which slow down the game (regardless of how much we optimize it), and if players perceive non-smooth movement, they think it’s a bug.

The development cycle of a game is complex, but its core idea does not differ from the development of the majority of products that are out on the market today. I will give you an example to understand this better. Let’s assume that you are producing a car. The first thing you do is assemble all necessary parts. After this phase is done, you take the car for a test drive. You identify any possible issues and then you fix them. After all issues are fixed and the car is functioning properly, you add the final touches – painting, polishing, etc. Then you are ready to start selling the car. The same principles apply to our games. Space Engineers is now in the phase where (nearly) all necessary parts have been assembled and we are ready to move to the major polishing and bug-fixing phase. This will probably be the longest and final bug-fixing period before the game is released in its final state.

The post did not confirm or deny that they were reworking the netcode from the ground up. However, they were discussing bringing optimizations to multiplayer in their polishing phase. Also, the current bugfixes might be a clue that they are cleaning uo the game in order to implement the new netcode.

Yep, I've read that. The blog I posted is very specific, and the roadmap blurb is far more general.

Are they switching to Raknet or not?

Are they changing to a prioritized data transfer or not?

Are they moving to a star-model network with the DS at the center or not?

[Zefnoly]

If they never are going to make a new working mp i will probably stay singelplayer forever. or 1-2 player servers forever. I hope they are going to make a real server system like VGC wants...

[VanGoghComplex]

Originally posted by Zefnoly:

If they never are going to make a new working mp i will probably stay singelplayer forever. or 1-2 player servers forever. I hope they are going to make a real server system like VGC wants...

No, not like I want.

Like they friggin' said they were going to do.

[Zefnoly]

Originally posted by VanGoghComplex:

Originally posted by Zefnoly:

If they never are going to make a new working mp i will probably stay singelplayer forever. or 1-2 player servers forever. I hope they are going to make a real server system like VGC wants...

No, not like I want.

Like they friggin' said they were going to do.

Yep... If they crush that idea they are going to do a huge mistake

[Chip Patton]

Originally posted by Zefnoly:

Originally posted by VanGoghComplex:

No, not like I want.

Like they friggin' said they were going to do.

Yep... If they crush that idea they are going to do a huge mistake

Why? They can just change the name of the company and start a new title like Reign of Kings and not even have to worry about slowing down. To them, there is no mistakes being made. They have all the fanbois here doing their work for them and keeping us quiet and off their main forums. Have you guys read their forums lately? Not a bad word about KSH said, nearly ever, becasue if it is, they are trolled so hard the thread is locked or deleted.

Thankfully the rainbows and unicorns aren't that bad here yet. But I fear if KSH keeps going down this road it will be because I think VanGC, me and a few others will simply stop and give up.

[Zefnoly]

Originally posted by Chip Patton:

Originally posted by Zefnoly:

Yep... If they crush that idea they are going to do a huge mistake

Why? They can just change the name of the company and start a new title like Reign of Kings and not even have to worry about slowing down. To them, there is no mistakes being made. They have all the fanbois here doing their work for them and keeping us quiet and off their main forums. Have you guys read their forums lately? Not a bad word about KSH said, nearly ever, becasue if it is, they are trolled so hard the thread is locked or deleted.

Thankfully the rainbows and unicorns aren't that bad here yet. But I fear if KSH keeps going down this road it will be because I think VanGC, me and a few others will simply stop and give up.

I tried to make a bugreport about how awfull the current system with the interior lights are. I made a post every single "even idiots" should understand to see how bad it is. And that it was fine in the beginning of DX11 SE. Then 1-2 "fanboy" idiots came ruining saying against everything. it ended to be a war just saying "disaggre" on every message. But a few people came in and began helping my by just voting informative and aggre on my own posts.

[Chip Patton]

Originally posted by Zefnoly:

Originally posted by Chip Patton:

Why? They can just change the name of the company and start a new title like Reign of Kings and not even have to worry about slowing down. To them, there is no mistakes being made. They have all the fanbois here doing their work for them and keeping us quiet and off their main forums. Have you guys read their forums lately? Not a bad word about KSH said, nearly ever, becasue if it is, they are trolled so hard the thread is locked or deleted.

Thankfully the rainbows and unicorns aren't that bad here yet. But I fear if KSH keeps going down this road it will be because I think VanGC, me and a few others will simply stop and give up.

I tried to make a bugreport about how awfull the current system with the interior lights are. I made a post every single "even idiots" should understand to see how bad it is. And that it was fine in the beginning of DX11 SE. Then 1-2 "fanboy" idiots came ruining saying against everything. it ended to be a war just saying "disaggre" on every message. But a few people came in and began helping my by just voting informative and aggre on my own posts.

Exactly.

The most destructive force of any game and community is not crappy developers but fanbois. It was fanbois that kept people buying the game, Starforge even after all the indications were out there that the game would be abandoned mid-development. It is fanbois that allows bad developers to become worse and get paid for it by blocking out and polluting valid criticism.

What's funny is, after someone calls someone out on ROK forums for being a fanboi in SF, by providing a link to their fanboi comments, they cry ad-hominem and even get steam admins to come in and ban folks for it. Funny how fanbois operate.

[VanGoghComplex]

Well, I guess I'll take a page from SolarScavenger's book. This thread will persist until Keen answers or I'm banned.

[Chip Patton]

Originally posted by VanGoghComplex:

Well, I guess I'll take a page from SolarScavenger's book. This thread will persist until Keen answers or I'm banned.

I would still rephrase the origional question to give no room for plurals... Simply "raknet for PC (yes/no)?"

[VanGoghComplex]

Originally posted by Chip Patton:

Originally posted by VanGoghComplex:

Well, I guess I'll take a page from SolarScavenger's book. This thread will persist until Keen answers or I'm banned.

I would still rephrase the origional question to give no room for plurals... Simply "raknet for PC (yes/no)?"

Point. Will revise.

[Zefnoly]

Originally posted by Chip Patton:

Originally posted by Zefnoly:

I tried to make a bugreport about how awfull the current system with the interior lights are. I made a post every single "even idiots" should understand to see how bad it is. And that it was fine in the beginning of DX11 SE. Then 1-2 "fanboy" idiots came ruining saying against everything. it ended to be a war just saying "disaggre" on every message. But a few people came in and began helping my by just voting informative and aggre on my own posts.

Exactly.

The most destructive force of any game and community is not crappy developers but fanbois. It was fanbois that kept people buying the game, Starforge even after all the indications were out there that the game would be abandoned mid-development. It is fanbois that allows bad developers to become worse and get paid for it by blocking out and polluting valid criticism.

What's funny is, after someone calls someone out on ROK forums for being a fanboi in SF, by providing a link to their fanboi comments, they cry ad-hominem and even get steam admins to come in and ban folks for it. Funny how fanbois operate.

I kept up arguing for about 2-4 weeks about the same issues. At the end on of the fanbois admitted he started aggreing but the other one refused to understand. Then a person came and said he also understood how bad the lights where. As fast someone other than the fanbois agrees the whole topic died.

[Chip Patton]

Originally posted by Zefnoly:

Originally posted by Chip Patton:

Exactly.

The most destructive force of any game and community is not crappy developers but fanbois. It was fanbois that kept people buying the game, Starforge even after all the indications were out there that the game would be abandoned mid-development. It is fanbois that allows bad developers to become worse and get paid for it by blocking out and polluting valid criticism.

What's funny is, after someone calls someone out on ROK forums for being a fanboi in SF, by providing a link to their fanboi comments, they cry ad-hominem and even get steam admins to come in and ban folks for it. Funny how fanbois operate.

I kept up arguing for about 2-4 weeks about the same issues. At the end on of the fanbois admitted he started aggreing but the other one refused to understand. Then a person came and said he also understood how bad the lights where. As fast someone other than the fanbois agrees the whole topic died.

The problem is, all keen sees is the first page of people vehemitly against you complainging about lights, so they think lights are fine until -- *dum-dum* Marek plays and goes "What is this? Why I see nothing? This is too dark!"

Very prime example how fanbois disrupt development.