Verdun
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Soren Jan 20 @ 9:52pm
A plea to M2H and Blackmill from a veteran Verdun player
I orginally posted this to the Verdun Discord but I really want the devs (and as many other players as possible to see this) to see this so I thought I would post it here as well.

I haven't had a chance to play any of the new updates since I don't have access to reliable internet right now. But as a veteran of the game and a longtime player of the competitive scene I just wanted to chime in and say something. PLEASE DEVS: do yourself a favor and do not make any more changes to the core movement mechanics of verdun (unless that change happens to be reverting them to their pre-horrors of war state).

About 50% of your active player base are competitive players and by that I mean players who are playing the game regularly, at least 10-20 hours every 2 weeks and not just a few hours every month. Not only that, but many of those same players are your most active player and many of them play the game multiple hours every night. The interact with the community and teach new players the best ways to play the game, hence keeping them around longer. I can say personally that I most likely would have never would have put as much time into this game and it's community if a competitive player hadn't reached out to me and helped me get involved. The competitive community has been the lifeblood of this game for years, and outside of steam sale players and free to play weekenders, they are the ones who have kept the servers full and the games interesting. I want to make this very clear, IF COMPETITIVE PLAYERS STOP PLAYING YOUR GAME IT WILL DIE.

Tannenberg is pretty much dead in the cradle because competitive players from verdun have no interest in it. We still play Verdun because while it is a shell of what it once was it still has many of the core mechanics that made us love it in the first place. If you remove these mechanics the competitive scene will die, and let me reiterate, in turn the game itself will die. I would strongly urge you, in your continued development of Tannenberg or any other 1914-1918 WW1 Game Series game to strongly consider that these mechanics are what made you game great, and what lead a great deal of your most loyal fans (and harshest critics, as the two are almost always the same) to play your game and prostolotize it to their friends.

I hope you take my and the rest of the hardcore competitive communities feedback to heart. I have put too many hours into this game and it's community to see it all go to waste.

- Soren, Veteran of KHD, Hitmen, SALT, Crimson Tactical and AIR, Admin for the VCL and ANC and Caster for E4I.
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Showing 1-15 of 173 comments
+1

It is my will that this happen.
HardBoiled Jan 20 @ 11:50pm 
What mechanics have actually been changed? For I don't see anything being changed. Jumpshooting works, some people have been crying that they removed it, but it's still present, used it so many times since update that I can't even count them. Right after the update release, in a first ongoing match in Artois (where even Matt was playing), I joined the game and tested all the movement and gunplay mechanics to see whether or not they changed something. Only thing that differed from pre-update version was that side moving had removed static aim while breath hold, which would make corner "leaning" trickier. However, not sure what patch did it, but it is back, tested it yesterday.
Moreover, from what I've experienced after the update so far, I'd say the hitboxes and bullet registration have been improved a bit. My problems with not killing a foe 2m before me while fully and certainly aimed at him are finally gone.

I understand the OP's worries and I am agreed with him. Verdun's mechanics should not be changed in order to "equalize" them with Tannenberg, as they are different games. They can be merged as they are now - one launcher - but no more merging is possible if the devs wanna keep good aspects of each game, especially Verdun's, which have been developing for years.

However, since the mechanics are nearly untouched so far, I think there is no need for panic... yet.
Soren Jan 21 @ 1:11am 
Originally posted by HardBoiled:
What mechanics have actually been changed? For I don't see anything being changed. Jumpshooting works, some people have been crying that they removed it, but it's still present, used it so many times since update that I can't even count them. Right after the update release, in a first ongoing match in Artois (where even Matt was playing), I joined the game and tested all the movement and gunplay mechanics to see whether or not they changed something. Only thing that differed from pre-update version was that side moving had removed static aim while breath hold, which would make corner "leaning" trickier. However, not sure what patch did it, but it is back, tested it yesterday.
Moreover, from what I've experienced after the update so far, I'd say the hitboxes and bullet registration have been improved a bit. My problems with not killing a foe 2m before me while fully and certainly aimed at him are finally gone.

I understand the OP's worries and I am agreed with him. Verdun's mechanics should not be changed in order to "equalize" them with Tannenberg, as they are different games. They can be merged as they are now - one launcher - but no more merging is possible if the devs wanna keep good aspects of each game, especially Verdun's, which have been developing for years.

However, since the mechanics are nearly untouched so far, I think there is no need for panic... yet.

The change to the strafing was what made me make this post. I'm aware they changed it back, but the fact they wanted to change it got me worried. Myself and a number of other member of the community have become worried over the past several years that the devs don't seem to quite understand what make us enjoy their game so much. The recent change, as well as the previous changes made to the movement mechanics in the horrors of war update would seem to corroborate these worries.

Us members of the community that have put in countless hours not only into the game, but into organizing events, forming teams and creating a healthy community for fans of the game are extremely worried about
this fact. A change to the core mechanics of the game could dash all that work against the wall. Even if it is eventually reverted, a lule in the competitive scene as short as even a few months could destroy all that work. This happened before during the performance problems of late 2015/early 2016, which pretty much destroyed the Verdun League and the years work it's founders, admins and teams had put into it.

I hope that helps you or anyone else wondering why I wrote this post to understand why I did.
Last edited by Soren; Jan 21 @ 1:13am
eMp Jan 21 @ 1:30am 
+1 This is the opinion if every competitive player.
Soren Jan 21 @ 1:36am 
Originally posted by Emperor:
+1 This is the opinion if every competitive player.

Your not wrong, just look at the number of +1's on this thread. And almost all of them are from respected veteran competitive players.
Originally posted by Søren:
Originally posted by HardBoiled:
What mechanics have actually been changed? For I don't see anything being changed. Jumpshooting works, some people have been crying that they removed it, but it's still present, used it so many times since update that I can't even count them. Right after the update release, in a first ongoing match in Artois (where even Matt was playing), I joined the game and tested all the movement and gunplay mechanics to see whether or not they changed something. Only thing that differed from pre-update version was that side moving had removed static aim while breath hold, which would make corner "leaning" trickier. However, not sure what patch did it, but it is back, tested it yesterday.
Moreover, from what I've experienced after the update so far, I'd say the hitboxes and bullet registration have been improved a bit. My problems with not killing a foe 2m before me while fully and certainly aimed at him are finally gone.

I understand the OP's worries and I am agreed with him. Verdun's mechanics should not be changed in order to "equalize" them with Tannenberg, as they are different games. They can be merged as they are now - one launcher - but no more merging is possible if the devs wanna keep good aspects of each game, especially Verdun's, which have been developing for years.

However, since the mechanics are nearly untouched so far, I think there is no need for panic... yet.

The change to the strafing was what made me make this post. I'm aware they changed it back, but the fact they wanted to change it got me worried. Myself and a number of other member of the community have become worried over the past several years that the devs don't seem to quite understand what make us enjoy their game so much. The recent change, as well as the previous changes made to the movement mechanics in the horrors of war update would seem to corroborate these worries.

Us members of the community that have put in countless hours not only into the game, but into organizing events, forming teams and creating a healthy community for fans of the game are extremely worried about
this fact. A change to the core mechanics of the game could dash all that work against the wall. Even if it is eventually reverted, a lule in the competitive scene as short as even a few months could destroy all that work. This happened before during the performance problems of late 2015/early 2016, which pretty much destroyed the Verdun League and the years work it's founders, admins and teams had put into it.

I hope that helps you or anyone else wondering why I wrote this post to understand why I did.

Well now I see that your post is more of warning to devs than complaining. And that's why I'm giving it +1. Let's hope the devs will take this on their accounts.

P.S.: Just a few thoughts of mine. I've beem playing this game since late 2015 (or so), and actually watching it since early access (thought I hadn't good enough PC to run it back then). I remember pre-horrors of war times myself, so I see the long way this game's been through. Though I honestly liked 2015-ish version more, I understand the devs as well. Everything has to develop. Stuck developnent means death, in general, philosofical point of view. I understand their effort to make a progress. Every game that stopped to be developed/advanced died sooner or later, no matter how big and strong community it had.
However, changing the core elements would be a step backwards, and here we are getting to your post. There are loads of things that can be improved instead, like performance for instance, though I think options are highly limited by the Unity itself.

Let's hope the devs are aware of all of this as well. Give them a chance.
Last edited by HardBoiled; Jan 21 @ 2:08am
Jon Jan 21 @ 2:21am 
- 1 million.

850000 purchases and a playerbase of only two-hundred logically suggests change is needed.
Soren Jan 21 @ 2:34am 
Originally posted by Geoffrey Boycott:
- 1 million.

850000 purchases and a playerbase of only two-hundred logically suggests change is needed.

Someone doesn't understand niche markets. Niche markets are exactly what a Dev team the size of verduns ought to be aiming for. They are never going to make the next battlefield or Red Orchestra 2, and any who thinks otherwise is likely kidding themselves. Not to mention, trying to make a game of that sort of scale would be ridiculous with the unity engine, hence my problem with Tannenberg (amoung other things). You shouldn't aim to hit the moon with a crossbow.

I do agree there is room for changes and improvement though, but you shouldn't be changing the core mechanics of a game that's been out for years.
Last edited by Soren; Jan 21 @ 2:39am
Soren Jan 21 @ 2:45am 
Originally posted by HardBoiled:
Originally posted by Søren:

The change to the strafing was what made me make this post. I'm aware they changed it back, but the fact they wanted to change it got me worried. Myself and a number of other member of the community have become worried over the past several years that the devs don't seem to quite understand what make us enjoy their game so much. The recent change, as well as the previous changes made to the movement mechanics in the horrors of war update would seem to corroborate these worries.

Us members of the community that have put in countless hours not only into the game, but into organizing events, forming teams and creating a healthy community for fans of the game are extremely worried about
this fact. A change to the core mechanics of the game could dash all that work against the wall. Even if it is eventually reverted, a lule in the competitive scene as short as even a few months could destroy all that work. This happened before during the performance problems of late 2015/early 2016, which pretty much destroyed the Verdun League and the years work it's founders, admins and teams had put into it.

I hope that helps you or anyone else wondering why I wrote this post to understand why I did.

Well now I see that your post is more of warning to devs than complaining. And that's why I'm giving it +1. Let's hope the devs will take this on their accounts.

P.S.: Just a few thoughts of mine. I've beem playing this game since late 2015 (or so), and actually watching it since early access (thought I hadn't good enough PC to run it back then). I remember pre-horrors of war times myself, so I see the long way this game's been through. Though I honestly liked 2015-ish version more, I understand the devs as well. Everything has to develop. Stuck developnent means death, in general, philosofical point of view. I understand their effort to make a progress. Every game that stopped to be developed/advanced died sooner or later, no matter how big and strong community it had.
However, changing the core elements would be a step backwards, and here we are getting to your post. There are loads of things that can be improved instead, like performance for instance, though I think options are highly limited by the Unity itself.

Let's hope the devs are aware of all of this as well. Give them a chance.

I agree that change and progress are needed but they need to be done without changes to core mechanics or making the game unplayable for months due to performance issues. I too hope the Devs understand this, that why I wrote this post, but it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt when previous evidence points to the contrary.
Ubernanos | ENC 2018 (Banned) Jan 21 @ 2:57am 
+1

+1 Because I wont play anymore but I still support the comp community.
We have put many efforts into this, spent a lot of hours, and devs should hear us.

But imo, you should let the devs do what they really want (aka the unintentionnal revert of jumpshooting and now strafin) and let them do their second Tannenberg, with a Verdun name.
Then we would all move up and this game would have what he deserves, a death.

Im not lightely throwning these words, since I spent 2500 hours, tried to set up clans, an entire euro tournament, and spent some good times around.
But at some point, incompetance is too much.

This thread makes me think of the bootlicking devs one about the new update, with three guys agreein, and the OP sayin, "Wow thx for all da support, I knew we were many thinkin that the new update is amazing".
Well it seems not.
Last edited by Ubernanos | ENC 2018; Jan 21 @ 2:59am
Soren Jan 21 @ 3:02am 
Originally posted by Von Salomon:
+1

+1 Because I wont play anymore but I still support the comp community.
We have put many efforts into this, spent a lot of hours, and devs should hear us.

But imo, you should let the devs do what they really want (aka the unintentionnal revert of jumpshooting and now strafin) and let them do their second Tannenberg, with a Verdun name.
Then we would all move up and this game would have what he deserves, a death.

Im not lightely throwning these words, since I spent 2500 hours, tried to set up clans, an entire euro tournament, and spent some good times around.
But at some point, incompetance is too much.

I understand your frustration, but the NA competitive scene right now is in the best place it's ever been (at least since Verdun League) and it is showing steady growth. It sucks that the EU scene is more stagnent, but it's always been harder to organize over there, partially due to the language barriers I expect. Anyways, I have always wished you guys the best of luck, and I still do. I however will do whatever I can do try and and stop the makers of this game from commiting game dev sepukku and I'm sad to hear you don't feel the same.
Ubernanos | ENC 2018 (Banned) Jan 21 @ 3:13am 
Originally posted by Søren:
Originally posted by Von Salomon:
+1

+1 Because I wont play anymore but I still support the comp community.
We have put many efforts into this, spent a lot of hours, and devs should hear us.

But imo, you should let the devs do what they really want (aka the unintentionnal revert of jumpshooting and now strafin) and let them do their second Tannenberg, with a Verdun name.
Then we would all move up and this game would have what he deserves, a death.

Im not lightely throwning these words, since I spent 2500 hours, tried to set up clans, an entire euro tournament, and spent some good times around.
But at some point, incompetance is too much.

I understand your frustration, but the NA competitive scene right now is in the best place it's ever been (at least since Verdun League) and it is showing steady growth. It sucks that the EU scene is more stagnent, but it's always been harder to organize over there, partially due to the language barriers I expect. Anyways, I have always wished you guys the best of luck, and I still do. I however will do whatever I can do try and and stop the makers of this game from commiting game dev sepukku and I'm sad to hear you don't feel the same.

My frustration doesnt come from anything related to comp and the comp scene :D
Im not even frustrated. I just feel like my time has come.
Everything is always related to a supposed US/EU scene. I totally dont care. From what I've seen on OPN streams, I wouldnt call a PC vs AJ, Pirates, TC or CC, like "the best place its ever been".

But its not the purpose of this thread. I wish the best to Verdun and the comp players, and Ill probably still have to participate from time to time if TrAc is low on players.

What Im sayin, is just that its better to leave now, before a new update that will definitely ♥♥♥♥ us in 2020.

We all know what the devs want. And its not Verdun as it used to be.
Last edited by Ubernanos | ENC 2018; Jan 21 @ 3:14am
I quit playing Verdun for awhile because the competitive players suck the fun out of it. Maybe the devs could give more options for user-defined settings in Private Matches, so you can tailor your movements to however you like in Private, but in Pub games the changes are nice.
Soren Jan 21 @ 3:44am 
Originally posted by Vepatzioone:
+1

>NA comp scene lol

Well NA has 6 active competitive teams (7 if you count Pirates) where EU has only 4 despite having a larger playerbase. In that sense I would say NA has done a better job of mobilizing it's playerbase toward competitive play. But thats not the point of this thread, I want both NA and EU competitive scenes to flourish to the highest level at which they reasonably can, so that's all I will say on that.
Originally posted by Søren:
Originally posted by Vepatzioone:
+1

>NA comp scene lol

Well NA has 6 active competitive teams (7 if you count Pirates) where EU has only 4 despite having a larger playerbase. In that sense I would say NA has done a better job of mobilizing it's playerbase toward competitive play. But thats not the point of this thread, I want both NA and EU competitive scenes to flourish to the highest level at which they reasonably can, so that's all I will say on that.
in Eu it feels like most players are not interested in comp or the mechanics required for it
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Verdun > General Discussions > Topic Details
Date Posted: Jan 20 @ 9:52pm
Posts: 173