Bionic Dues

Bionic Dues

View Stats:
Bionic Dues > General Discussions > Topic Details
Firestorm_01 Nov 29, 2016 @ 10:39am
Will Patch 1.104 be released soon? Or is it already available?
I found this: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=15752

So looks like version 1.104 still planning? Or it is already avalible as beta somewhere?
< >
Showing 16-30 of 35 comments
kmkenpo Aug 3, 2017 @ 8:50am 
Tegga21...

Sorry, at my age I have learned one thing well... arguing with children is pointless :)

Enjoy the denial of your fanboy romance :)
Dominus Arbitrationis  [developer] Aug 3, 2017 @ 6:06pm 
Okay, few things here.

  1. Please keep this civil. Remember, this is about a game. Name calling, belittling, or otherwise being rude/mean is uncalled for. Don't be this guy[xkcd.com]. It won't work out in the end.
  2. I'll link Chris to this topic and let him know about the idea Firestorm_01 had about releasing the source code. Personally, I like the idea, but there is a slight problem. How do we get that out to players? Do we set up some kind of link between Steam and GitHub? Nope. That's asking for trouble. Do we curate it? Sure, but then someone has to check on it relatively often. Or, do we just make those unofficial mods and players can grab them straight from GitHub or what have you.

    Oh, and another problem is the finances side of it. There are people who collect royalties from the game, so we would need unanimous consent from all of them to go through with that plan.
kmkenpo Aug 3, 2017 @ 6:19pm 
Originally posted by Dominus Arbitrationis:
Okay, few things here.

  1. Please keep this civil. Remember, this is about a game. Name calling, belittling, or otherwise being rude/mean is uncalled for. Don't be this guy[xkcd.com]. It won't work out in the end.
  2. I'll link Chris to this topic and let him know about the idea Firestorm_01 had about releasing the source code. Personally, I like the idea, but there is a slight problem. How do we get that out to players? Do we set up some kind of link between Steam and GitHub? Nope. That's asking for trouble. Do we curate it? Sure, but then someone has to check on it relatively often. Or, do we just make those unofficial mods and players can grab them straight from GitHub or what have you.

    Oh, and another problem is the finances side of it. There are people who collect royalties from the game, so we would need unanimous consent from all of them to go through with that plan.

I spoke my mind and you gave your response... but life is far too short to argue. As I said to you earlier, best of luck with your future endeavors:)

Still, for what it's worth, you really should look further into the suggestion made by Firestorm_01, possibly contacting the Dev of Xenonauts to get more information.
Dominus Arbitrationis  [developer] Aug 3, 2017 @ 6:25pm 
Oh, I know you responded. I meant to say thank you for the polite response. And I wish you the best of luck as well! :)

I've forwarded the suggestion to Chris (He is the Big Boss Man who gets to make the call on stuff), so he should either pop by or respond to me and I can relay what he says on to you guys.

To everyone here who has been complimenting us and our game, and/or been pushing us to improve the game, thank you so much for the kind words and support! It is always nice to hear that people like your work!
Firestorm_01 Aug 4, 2017 @ 5:49am 
Originally posted by Dominus Arbitrationis:
Okay, few things here.

  1. I'll link Chris to this topic and let him know about the idea Firestorm_01 had about releasing the source code. Personally, I like the idea, but there is a slight problem. How do we get that out to players? Do we set up some kind of link between Steam and GitHub? Nope. That's asking for trouble. Do we curate it? Sure, but then someone has to check on it relatively often. Or, do we just make those unofficial mods and players can grab them straight from GitHub or what have you.

    Oh, and another problem is the finances side of it. There are people who collect royalties from the game, so we would need unanimous consent from all of them to go through with that plan.
Do not forget that Bionic Dues is roguelike. Also it is prety close to traditional rogulikes. And it is not arcade rogueLite. This fact should be exploited.

Likely news about releasing source code will be here:
http://www.roguebasin.com/

Also note that releasing source code may be used as advertising to Arcen Games.

P.S. I note that on Steam store page game called rougueliTe. Nope. RogueliKe
Look at this:
http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation
By Berlin Interpretation you have most High value factors.

You should have been advertise Bionic Dues as rogueliKe.
Last edited by Firestorm_01; Aug 4, 2017 @ 6:22am
x-4000 (Chris Park)  [developer] Aug 4, 2017 @ 8:09am 
Okay... whew, first of all thanks to everyone for even caring this much about the game. I mean that genuinely.

---

Secondly, on the whole "work ethic" thing, it's a really tough thing with games these days, particularly if you make a goodly number of them over a span of years. We give a ton of support for recent releases in particular, but there has to be some sort of relatively-finite window on that once a game starts really pulling its weight financially.

I'm definitely not one to plan based on spreadsheets alone; I don't think that anyone who's been around much much, or watched podcasts or seen patch notes or whatever would think that. That said, when it comes to older titles, honestly some of the bugs that are brought up are referencing pieces of functionality that I don't even _remember_. I know that's kind of a shocking thing to say, but we make really complicated games, and my brain has to do a bit of a RAM dump every so often in order to be able to focus on the newer titles.

What's the right answer to all that? That's a question I keep asking myself, to be honest. We have something like 10 titles out now, which have been completed over the last 8 years. We make money primarily off of two of those, although there's a trickle from the others. Those help to pay for our newer titles being developed, just like our prior titles paid for the older ones as THEY were developed. It's a bit of a cycle there, to say the least.

At any rate, when we have two programmers on staff and that's it, and we're already up against a wall and earning less than we spend and have shed staff, etc, etc, etc, then things get tough in terms of calls. It's not like you really care about our situation from a purely-consumer standpoint, and in an ideal world that shouldn't matter.

From a realistic standpoint we do hit a point where I start to think "well, this would cost more to maintain than to sell, do we take it down from sale?" Then I think "well, there's not really a mechanism for that, and loads of people enjoy it as it is, anyway." Plus, even something that is a "trickle" of a few hundred dollars (maybe $2k max) in a year still helps out. So if people are largely enjoying it, and we can offer it as it is... and that's kind of the main situation for games honestly past a certain age... then I guess that's how we wind up here.

This has been my thought process, anyhow.

---

Next up, when it comes to the source code, I'm not too enthusiastic of just making that a free-for-all. If we did, then that probably wouldn't impact sales particularly negatively (most people who buy it wouldn't be aware of the source code), so that isn't my worry. But how do you get the source code changes BACK into the game itself? People start forking it and presumably the "best" experience then migrates off of what is in Steam, and then people start complaining about it not being up to date with the latest fork, etc, etc.

Then there's a whole new set of problems, basically, which also costs time and money on my end, and probably frustrates Steam customers as well as potentially opening them up to malicious code. Probably that last bit is not really a worry, but it always does run through my mind when I think about unreviewed code going out to customers. If something happens, where is the liability on that, etc.

---

All THAT said, honestly it is something I really hate to see where a title of ours just kind of dies because there's nobody around to work on it anymore. That's why a lot of our newer titles are focused more around easier modding and being partially open-source. Well, AI War 2 anyway, and Stars Beyond Reach was planned to be that way. And Starward Rogue is mostly that way. The other title I'm working on is more self-contained and not meant to be modded simply by its nature.

ANYWAY. Our problem is manpower, more or less. I remember when Supreme Commander was basically in this sort of state, and then there were people modding its AI, and then I was modding those mods, and I had a great time with that. But without access to all the internals, there was a limit to how much I could do there. And yet I WANTED to do more, as a consumer, just because I enjoyed the game. From the developer's point of view, there was no way for them to justify that sort of expense, though.

With a big developer or publisher, that's kind of the end of the line.

In this particular case, I think that perhaps a better compromise is in order. There's no way to avoid some degree of manual labor on my part in terms of code review or whatever else, and that's just the nature of things if all customers are to benefit from any changes.

With that in mind, what I'd prefer to do is probably just open up our svn repository to interested parties that approach us. That does mean that someone can just grab the code and run away with it, but I'm not really worried about that impacting sales, as I noted before. It would mainly be something that's easier for me to keep an eye on, and do pulls and pushes from, is my thought. I'm not a big fan of git, and our existing repo history isn't something we could easily export somewhere else to my knowledge.

My thought is that the process could basically be:

- People who are interested in working on the source code contact me at chrispark7 at gmail and I'll give them access. You're on your own figuring out what stuff does, for the most part, though.

- They can then compile this and just share around the one code dll with others for testing purposes as much as they wish.

- Once things are to a point where they are stable enough for me to review, and probably not more than once per month, I'll take a look at the unified diff in svn, make sure everything is kosher, and then push the update out through Steam so everyone benefits.

---

This process wouldn't make the volunteer coders any money, but I don't think that was really the point. I've been on the other side of things with a lot of games, where I just wanted to make changes to it because I liked the game... and of course I would have preferred that any improvements I made went out to everyone else, because hey I have pride in my work (despite what has been said above in the thread). So I figure that the motivations here for folks are pretty much the same as what I've felt in the past.

It's not 1000% ideal of a scenario because it does put some labor back onto me, and it's not going completely in the direction of open-source like some folks would like, but it probably benefits the most players out of any of the options on the table.

Thoughts? Again, thanks for even caring this much.

Cheers,
Chris
Firestorm_01 Aug 4, 2017 @ 9:02am 
This way it resrticts a lof of pepople from getting into development. In form on source code on github it may be much more widespread.

About "porting back changes" and stability. Xenonauts allow user to select "Community Edition" in game beta options. It can be used to inform users about moving to potentially unstable build but still manatining stable dev version.

Well at least something. Probaly it may at least intresting expriment for your game studio.

But now it should be somehow advertised on Arcen Games site and forums.

Let's see reaction at least:
https://forums.arcengames.com/bionic-dues/bionic-dues-source-code-may-be-exposed-to-community/
Last edited by Firestorm_01; Aug 4, 2017 @ 9:17am
x-4000 (Chris Park)  [developer] Aug 4, 2017 @ 9:37am 
Good call on posting there. Also, copy-pasting my response from there to here:

---

Restricting how many people are open to developing on it isn't really a top concern of mine, to be honest. For someone to be interested enough to do something of value, they mostly have to already want to get the proper dev tools and figure out what the game is doing. I figure that writing to me for a login to svn is the least of the worries if that's something they're up for.

I suppose one potential option, which I'd have to talk to Keith about, would be a public git version that people can mess about with, and then periodically someone helps out by merging those into svn and then I do a push to steam.
kmkenpo Aug 4, 2017 @ 12:12pm 
In response to what x-4000 (Chris Park) [developer] has just now posted, I can honestly say, you and your company have impressed me. I realize that this was not your goal, nor should it have been when making this decision, but it honestly does that you are willing to extend the branch. Thank you for taking the time, for making a genuine offer, and for understanding how frustrating it is for the end consumer who sees so many Devs walk away from their projects, just so that they can start newer projects.

Regardless of how this plays out going forward, I am man enough to apologize for my original tone. Best of luck with the future projects.

Have a blessed day,
-kmkenpo
Originally posted by kmkenpo:
In response to what x-4000 (Chris Park) [developer] has just now posted, I can honestly say, you and your company have impressed me. I realize that this was not your goal, nor should it have been when making this decision, but it honestly does that you are willing to extend the branch. Thank you for taking the time, for making a genuine offer, and for understanding how frustrating it is for the end consumer who sees so many Devs walk away from their projects, just so that they can start newer projects.

Regardless of how this plays out going forward, I am man enough to apologize for my original tone. Best of luck with the future projects.

Have a blessed day,
-kmkenpo

I'm happy you see why my opinion of the dev's is what you would call a 'fanboy/girl'. Arcen is #1 dev company out there, Klei being a close second; but Arcen's games are all unique and great as are the fantastic devs. Calling them crappy rubbed me the wrong way; they are everything but.
kmkenpo Aug 8, 2017 @ 7:56pm 
Tegga21... The conversation between you and I had already been considered closed.

Please learn to leave well enough alone.
Last edited by kmkenpo; Aug 8, 2017 @ 8:31pm
Originally posted by kmkenpo:
Tegga21... The conversation between you and I had already been considered closed.

Please learn to leave well enough alone.

Thats nice; trying to act polite now; doesn't make you polite.

Originally posted by kmkenpo:
Regardless of the financial issues, putting the time and effort into a game that was sold to the public would be the RIGHT thing to do... especially when it is in the form of a patch that seems to be hinted to as sitting in the wings. Expansion(s) aside, there is no way that you can honestly say that finances are too tight to justify an individual completing the patch for this game. Kind of a crap move, regardless of what your "reasons" may be.

But, at the end of the day the Devs are the ones who have to live with this crap move, finding comfort in the hours spent combing through the financial ledgers to justify haulting the work on the patch, when those hours could have been spent doing the actual work on the patch.

Yesterday's work ethics and pride in one's efforts have been replaced by today's black and white numbers on a spread sheet. How sad.
kmkenpo Aug 9, 2017 @ 5:41am 
Tegga21... I have made my apologies to the Dev, even thanked him for the branch he has extended.

Obviously the conversation between the two of us is no longer producing anything beneficial to this particular thread, so any response made from you to me going forward, after what has already been discussed between the Devs and me, will show your true level of maturity and intent.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have a rather large trip to finish planning and preparing, which means there are more pressing matters in need of my attention.

As I said... Learn to leave well enough alone.

Have a blessed day,
-kmkenpo
Dominus Arbitrationis  [developer] Aug 9, 2017 @ 7:50am 
Alright, that's enough.

Both of you consider this a formal warning. I'm not going to hunt down which of you is more at fault, or started it, or anything of the sort. I will, however, say that insulting, name-calling, and being rude are all not okay. As such, I'm going to give both of you a warning before this gets really out of hand.

Discussion about the forum thread that was made by Firestorm_01 is definitely welcome, and differing opinions are also welcome about that, as long as the statements are made in a polite fashion and isn't an attack on someone. To save people the hassle of trying to find the forum thread, I'm going to sticky a link to it here, and give the link here as well: https://forums.arcengames.com/bionic-dues/bionic-dues-source-code-may-be-exposed-to-community/
kmkenpo Aug 9, 2017 @ 8:48am 
Originally posted by Dominus Arbitrationis:
Alright, that's enough.

Both of you consider this a formal warning. I'm not going to hunt down which of you is more at fault, or started it, or anything of the sort. I will, however, say that insulting, name-calling, and being rude are all not okay. As such, I'm going to give both of you a warning before this gets really out of hand.

Discussion about the forum thread that was made by Firestorm_01 is definitely welcome, and differing opinions are also welcome about that, as long as the statements are made in a polite fashion and isn't an attack on someone. To save people the hassle of trying to find the forum thread, I'm going to sticky a link to it here, and give the link here as well: https://forums.arcengames.com/bionic-dues/bionic-dues-source-code-may-be-exposed-to-community/


Thank you :)

Best of luck going forward.
< >
Showing 16-30 of 35 comments
Per page: 15 30 50

Bionic Dues > General Discussions > Topic Details