Europa Universalis IV

Europa Universalis IV

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Gnome Truther Dec 9, 2024 @ 7:36pm
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Ending Trans Erasure in Europa Universalis
A Call for Representation and Inclusion

I really like EU4, but one thing that's really missing is proper representation for transgender and gender-nonconforming people. I get that it’s a historical game, but that doesn’t mean we should just ignore the fact that people have always existed outside of the typical male/female gender dichotomy. With the coming release of EU5, we finally have a chance to fix that.

For those against this, why do we have a game where you can create the revolutionary catholic state of Mongolia in Japan, but you cannot be trans? It makes no sense.

I have some ideas for how we can add representation:
Cultural Representation
Different cultures had different views on gender, so why not include that in the game? For example, many Native American tribes had "Two-Spirit" people, and adding something like that to the game could bring more depth to the representation of indigenous cultures (which Paradox is completely lacking in).

Gender-Related Events
Why not add egg-cracking events for rulers in-game? The nobility of Europe have always been prone to being ahead of their time culturally, and this would be a great addition. Adding this for the Ottomans would especially make sense, given their long history of breaking the gender binary.

I really think EU5 (or even EU4, if Paradox is willing) can be one of the first "historical" games to end a trend of erasing trans figures from history. Leave a comment with your own ideas, and I'll add them to the OP!
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Showing 1-11 of 11 comments
Marquoz Dec 9, 2024 @ 7:51pm 
No one here can help you. Aside from a rare community rep post, Paradox developers do not post on this forum. If you want your suggestion to be seen and have a chance to be acted upon, post it on the official boards.
ChaffyExpert Dec 9, 2024 @ 7:58pm 
Lol there's no reason to be inserting your political agenda into this. This is a historical game. The game should focus on simulating the rise and fall of empires, the winds of change as technology changes, the gradual technological advancement of Europeans due to sheer chance of the Renaissance and a unique way of thinking (compared to the rest of the world) combined with new discoveries shaking the foundation of the old world that have stood for a thousand years, and the balance of power between the main European nations, all of which culminating in a sort of 'climax' in the story telling aspect with Revolution against monarchies, and the reactionary response against it, while the industrial revolution kicks off, setting the stage for Victoria where the world changes extremely rapidly.


What this game does NOT need is fantasy political modernism inserted ignoring the historical context. it also does NOT need them inserting their political opinion or trying to modify history to suit their narrative.

Now this is probably a bait/troll post, but knowing Paradox they could very well decide to do this for the sake of being inclusive and getting that BlackRock and Baby Inc money, and turning the franchise into a joke instead of focusing on being a series-ish representation of history while still being a fun game- with the intent being to put you into the shoes and mindscape of rulers from back in the day instead of being like "they did X thing we consider bad now adays!!!! They evil!!!"


Also monarchs and the people ruling aren't really the main focus, the focus is on the state. the ruler just effects the state. Crusader Kings you could maybe justify it for, because it's 'entirely' about the monarchs and dynasties themselves and there isn't really any concept of a state or nation.

And nobody is "erasing" trans people, they weren't there to begin with for the most part, unless you get extremely in-depth with cultures and such, which doesn't make sense since EU4 has such a massive scope. Even then you're applying a modern narrative to historical people, like they wouldn't consider themselves "trans" because such terms and identity politics was different back then.
Last edited by ChaffyExpert; Dec 9, 2024 @ 8:06pm
Gnome Truther Dec 9, 2024 @ 8:06pm 
Originally posted by ChaffyExpert:
Lol there's no reason to be inserting your political agenda into this. This is a historical game. The game should focus on simulating the rise and fall of empires, the winds of change as technology changes, the gradual technological advancement of Europeans due to sheer chance of the Renaissance and a unique way of thinking (compared to the rest of the world) combined with new discoveries shaking the foundation of the old world that have stood for a thousand years, and the balance of power between the main European nations, all of which culminating in a sort of 'climax' in the story telling aspect with Revolution against monarchies, and the reactionary response against it, while the industrial revolution kicks off, setting the stage for Victoria where the world changes extremely rapidly.


What this game does NOT need is fantasy political modernism inserted ignoring the historical context. it also does NOT need them inserting their political opinion or trying to modify history to suit their narrative.

Now this is probably a bait/troll post, but knowing Paradox they could very well decide to do this for the sake of being inclusive and getting that BlackRock and Baby Inc money, and turning the franchise into a joke instead of focusing on being a series-ish representation of history while still being a fun game- with the intent being to put you into the shoes and mindscape of rulers from back in the day instead of being like "they did X thing we consider bad now adays!!!! They evil!!!"


Also monarchs and the people ruling aren't really the main focus, the focus is on the state. the ruler just effects the state. Crusader Kings you could maybe justify it for, because it's 'entirely' about the monarchs and dynasties themselves and there isn't really any concept of a state or nation.
Of course a genocide supporter also supports trans erasure. Transphobes like you are not welcome in normal society so all you can do is spread your hatred on the internet.
ChaffyExpert Dec 9, 2024 @ 8:08pm 
Originally posted by Santa Believer:
Originally posted by ChaffyExpert:
Lol there's no reason to be inserting your political agenda into this. This is a historical game. The game should focus on simulating the rise and fall of empires, the winds of change as technology changes, the gradual technological advancement of Europeans due to sheer chance of the Renaissance and a unique way of thinking (compared to the rest of the world) combined with new discoveries shaking the foundation of the old world that have stood for a thousand years, and the balance of power between the main European nations, all of which culminating in a sort of 'climax' in the story telling aspect with Revolution against monarchies, and the reactionary response against it, while the industrial revolution kicks off, setting the stage for Victoria where the world changes extremely rapidly.


What this game does NOT need is fantasy political modernism inserted ignoring the historical context. it also does NOT need them inserting their political opinion or trying to modify history to suit their narrative.

Now this is probably a bait/troll post, but knowing Paradox they could very well decide to do this for the sake of being inclusive and getting that BlackRock and Baby Inc money, and turning the franchise into a joke instead of focusing on being a series-ish representation of history while still being a fun game- with the intent being to put you into the shoes and mindscape of rulers from back in the day instead of being like "they did X thing we consider bad now adays!!!! They evil!!!"


Also monarchs and the people ruling aren't really the main focus, the focus is on the state. the ruler just effects the state. Crusader Kings you could maybe justify it for, because it's 'entirely' about the monarchs and dynasties themselves and there isn't really any concept of a state or nation.
Of course a genocide supporter also supports trans erasure. Transphobes like you are not welcome in normal society so all you can do is spread your hatred on the internet.

I'm not supporting any genocide, and 'trans erasure' i am convinced is not a thing that exists, but rather something akin to "They aren't pandering to my political opinion." I don't see how that's "transphobic" or "spreading hatred" but you are also the people that think J.K. Rowling is transphobic so i didn't expect a logical rebuttal.

It seems more or less a "agree with me or you are Hitler" situation. And i simply don't care what you say about it unless it's a valid point. i made my points and logic clear, if anyone cares to provide an interesting point i may modify my opinion, but just saying "do what i say or else" isn't convincing me personally- and i have a feeling it's not convincing anyone else.
Last edited by ChaffyExpert; Dec 9, 2024 @ 8:10pm
Gnome Truther Dec 9, 2024 @ 8:16pm 
Originally posted by ChaffyExpert:
I'm not supporting any genocide
Sure
Originally posted by ChaffyExpert:
'trans erasure' i am convinced is not a thing that exists
Are you seriously denying the blatant removal of trans figures throughout history? You have to be a troll, even rightists don't lie that much.
Originally posted by ChaffyExpert:
i made my points and logic clear
You've made it very clear that you are on the side of hate. I don't need to argue with you and bless your ramblings with more consideration than they're worth, which is nothing. Trans erasure will end, whether you like it or not.
ChaffyExpert Dec 9, 2024 @ 8:40pm 
Originally posted by Santa Believer:
Originally posted by ChaffyExpert:
I'm not supporting any genocide
Sure
Originally posted by ChaffyExpert:
'trans erasure' i am convinced is not a thing that exists
Are you seriously denying the blatant removal of trans figures throughout history? You have to be a troll, even rightists don't lie that much.
Originally posted by ChaffyExpert:
i made my points and logic clear
You've made it very clear that you are on the side of hate. I don't need to argue with you and bless your ramblings with more consideration than they're worth, which is nothing. Trans erasure will end, whether you like it or not.

Yeah, I am saying there isn't blatant removal of trans figures throughout history. Here is why:

1. for one thing, there is no "trans" people in 1444 because "trans" identity wasn't a thing. It's like asking "why are there no fascists in 1444?" Because that ideology and identity literally wasn't a thing. Trying to say X was fascist, by using our modern perspective- is flawed because the entire perspective on politics was far different back then. The same is true for any "gay" or "trans" people- there were people that did homosexual things in Rome, but they didn't consider themselves "gay" or "bisexual" because those identities are a modern creation to identify people, or for people to identify themselves as a community.

2. The exact opposite has happened, historians say that X person was trans because "they were called a girl" If anything anyone that is LGBT or a minority in the USA is over-represented in history to push a political narrative.

3. Anyone you would consider "trans" would likely not be in positions of power or any significant position in regards to the game. Remember, EU4 is a game with a massive scope, it's absurd to expect Paradox to represent tiny details about cultures like their views on "trans" or "gay" people when they don't even have anything relating to familiial units- which is far more impactful in terms of history.

4. This is a game that goes Alt history once you click play. If they had specific characters in a point of time that were 100% "trans" no questions about it (which is not the case for several reasons) and they said they weren't trans, you could *maybe* say it's trans erasure, except there is nobody that you can say is 100% anything, the only person that knows who they are- is that person. And sometimes not even then.

5. You have no proof of any "definitively trans" people that were made not-trans. Not highlighting "trans" people in a period of time in which "trans" wasn't even a thing isn't "erasing" anything.

Unlike Ashkenazi Jewish, btw, which also isn't in the game besides some advisors i think? and likely not because of anti-semitism but because they aren't the majority in the provinces, but they were actually a self-identified community and had significant impact in Europe.

What you are saying Paradox should do, is basically pander to a modern political movement in a historical game where said identities didn't even exist yet, and you can only do so by injecting modernism and modern perspective into a historical setting, which is a bad thing to do because anyone can input their perspective on historical settings- a historian or a historical game ISNT supposed to input the modern perspective on history, it's to show you the historical thinking and perspective of the time so you can UNDERSTAND people in the past better- which has valuable insights into the modern day.


I don't see how anything i said is "hateful" or on the side of "hate" it kind of sounds like "everyone i disagree with is a Nazi" sort of argument.

The fact you say it's automatically hatred to say something you disagree with (something people on the left do alot) and that there is no point in talking or arguing or debating me, says more about you than it does me.
ChaffyExpert Dec 9, 2024 @ 8:44pm 
TLDR: Paradox shouldn't insert our modern perspective into a historical setting, or their personal political views. The point of a historical game or a historian is to provide insight into how people in the past thought and lived, and "trans" identity didn't even exist in 1444, so inputting stuff about "trans" people would be inserting modern perspective and narrative into history.

I suggest watching Metatron, he goes over the problems well with inserting modern perspective and politics into historical settings instead of viewing history objectively or trying to understand how people back then thought/lived to gain insight on the past.
grotaclas Dec 9, 2024 @ 11:47pm 
As Marquoz said, it would be best if you post such a suggestion in the tinto talks forum on the paradox website. Though you will probably have more success if you don't accuse the developers of "Trans Erasure". Instead you could suggest specific events or small mechanics(e.g. estate privileges) to represent trans people in the game in a way which is historically accurate(ideally by providing accepted historical research as a source)
Vnuk Dec 10, 2024 @ 1:01am 
Enough is enough, It's time they allow us to have same sex royal marriage
Rooter Dec 10, 2024 @ 2:36am 
Originally posted by Tarathal:
Enough is enough, It's time they allow us to have same sex royal marriage

It would die out pretty quick.
No IVF back then
vasi Dec 10, 2024 @ 3:20am 
Heya - while we always appreciate suggestions, this has quite quickly veered into rule-breaking territory, so I'm going to lock this thread.
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