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kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:48pm
BR Decompression (5.7-10.0 tanks, 7.3+ jets) {Draft3.1}
Summary

BR Decompression is the idea of expanding the top Battle Rating to a higher BR, and stretching a range to fit the new top tier, effectively “Decompressing” the BRs. This has been done in smaller scales, (example: moving the M1 Abrams from 9.0 to eventually 10.0), and to effect and satisfaction of the player base. But as to many battle rating complaints that have been given rank 3-6, I believe most balance issues in the game can be remedied by having much greater BR decompression, as in this suggestion, moving tanks like the Leopard 2A4 and M1IP Abrams to 13.0 BR, and expanding the 5.3/5.7 to 10.0 BR range to fit the new range, in attempt to allow all vehicles to be competitive again, both at their own BR and whether it be in an uptier or a downtier.




NOTE: If TL;DR, there are pictures!

NOTE: This was made across multiple versions. I try to update it, but if something was skipped (penetrations used pre-calculator, ignorance of radar, missing vehicles, vehicle buff/nerfs, and more), this possibly may be a reason.

NOTE: This was updated after the AP changes, but it is possible I missed something. Some vehicles may not be updated, some vehicles are predictions on where they should go, assume variation. This isn’t about individual vehicles, this is about the idea of BR Decompression.

NOTE: All battle ratings are in the Realistic Battles game mode. This applies to Arcade as well, but for the simplicity of not listing multiple game types over and over. So any significant variations may potentially be due to this, however, in case this is not the issue at hand, criticism is highly encouraged.

NOTE: This isn’t perfect, not 100% complete, however, nor does it need to be. This is to demonstrate the general idea of BR Decompression, not the specific BRs.

NOTE: I did not change the specific penetration values of the these vehicles (yet). However, looking though, all the evidence still holds up, as all the vehicles listed have still the same relative differences.





Evidence of BR compression

Rank I-III, for the most part, as there are always obvious exceptions, is fairly balanced. Almost all vehicles, whether be a complete uptier or not, have for the most part the ability to compete. At Rank I-III, sometimes I personally don’t even notice if I have been uptiered or not, tanks that are uptiered a full 1.0 BR are not as strong as the top tanks of the range obviously, but they are completely competitive in their abilities.

Meanwhile, at higher tier, this is not always the case. Uptiers, mainly starting around ~5.3, ~5.7, are workable, but start to get difficult. The thing is, starting about that area, the differences between vehicles 0.3, 0.7, and 1.0 BR apart start to increase compared to lower tier. The result is fighting vehicles, in some cases, that are superior to your vehicle in not one or maybe two aspects, but superior in every single aspect to your vehicle, and are not just superior by a little bit, but by very considerable amounts. This increases exponentially as you climb the tech tree.

Examples of some differences between low tier Battle Rating differences:


Panzer IV C (1.3) vs Panzer IV F1 (2.3)

The Panzer IV F1 is almost identical to the Panzer IV C, with the exact same gun (but different ammunition), and almost no change in mobility whatsoever. However, the one change between the 2 tanks would be the armour. The Pz IV F1’s only differences between the Pz IV C are,
Gains +20mm of frontal RHA
Gains +15mm of side RHA
But loses a couple mm of rear RHA.
Gains a 1943 HEAT shell that only penetrates 20mm more armour.
This difference between the 2 tanks constitutes a full 1.0 battle rating difference.

To remove the 20mm HEAT shell difference, another example to show a 0.3 BR difference would be the Panzer IV E vs the Panzer IV F1. Both tanks are almost identical in every aspect, except the F1 gains again +20mm of frontal armour and only +10mm of side armour. Every other aspect of the tank is near identical, including the ammunition as well.


M3 Stuart (1.3) vs M5A1 Stuart (2.0)

To show another example, the M5A1 Stuart as a whole looks fancier, but a performance difference between the M5A1 vs the M3 is not all that significant. Both vehicles are competitive compared to each other. Differences include:
The M5A1’s top speed is listed at 56km/h, compared to 50km/h, however, the M5A1 has a slightly worse HP/t ratio, making their mobility approximately equal.
The M5A1’s armour decreases in thickness, from ~38mm of the M3’s to the ~28mm of the M5A1, however, this armour is at a smooth slope, making it just slightly better. The M5A1 gains about ~3mm of side armour, and have identical rear armour.
The M5A1 gets a M6 37mm gun, while the M3 gets a M5 37mm gun. The difference between these guns, about only 15mm of penetration was gained with the best ammunition between the two.

These examples show that the M5A1 is undeniably the better tank, however, the difference between the two are not frankly that drastic. The M3 in almost a full uptier is inferior, as it should be, but is still extremely competitive, as the M5A1 compared to the M3 has overall only minor improvements and no absolutely massive changes between the two.


Panzer IV F2 (3.3) vs Panzer IV G (4.0)

The differences between the Panzer IV F2 vs the Panzer IV G are minor, yet qualifies for a 0.7 BR difference. 50mm of RHA of the F2 is upgraded to 80mm of RHA, and smoke dischargers on the turret sides are added, allowing for quick smokescreens. Apart from that, both tanks have near identical mobility and the same gun.

Which in comparing the Panzer IV G to the Panzer IV H, both tanks have very little change. The Panzer IV H, to qualify the 0.3 BR difference, has an increased turret traverse, and receives schürtzen plating, with the only other improvement being better placement of its additional track modification. However, because of the increased weight, the Pz IV H has a very minor decrease in mobility. The only other main difference is a 7.5cm KwK L/43 vs a 7.5cm KwK L/48, which has 1mm of extra penetration at 10 meters. Apart from this, the Panzer IV H vs the Panzer IV G have extremely minor differences, yet it is enough to qualify a 0.3 BR difference.

Which another example of this could be the same Pz IV H vs it’s successor, the Pz IV J. The J is at 4.0 BR, 0.3 BR difference compared to the Pz IV H. However, both tanks are almost completely identical. The Pz IV J’s only difference whatsoever to justify the 0.3 difference is the schürtzen being removed from the hull sides’ only (4mm of armour, by the way), and the J losing a large amount of turret traverse.
Which keep in mind, at low Rank III, the difference between 0.3 BRs is literally 4mm of side hull armour and turret traverse speed.

But regarding back to the Panzer IV F2, another comparison can be made to the Panzer IV F1 to the Panzer IV F2. Both are the same exact tank, down to the Ausf. F. However, the F2 is a full 1.0 BR higher than the F1, the difference being a L/24 7.5cm and a L/43 7.5cm. The ultimate result is an ABCBC round with 133mm of penetration at 100m, while the other one shoots a 100mm HEAT round at any range. Combined with this, the F1 has like, double the rate of fire. This is enough for a full, 1.0 BR difference, a 2.3 to a 3.3. Among this, although this is not the thread for it, people like to make the claim that the Pz IV F2 should be moved to 3.7 in Realistic Battles. Although I think the F2 is among the most overrated tanks in War Thunder, lets hypothetically say it does get moved to 3.7 BR. If so, this means these two identical tanks, with only a gun difference, would have a 1.3 battle rating difference, meaning they would never even meet each other in game.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Aug 18, 2019 @ 8:05am
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kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:48pm 
T-55A (8.3) vs T-55AM-1 (8.7)

The T-55A is an 8.3 main battle tank in the rank 6 soviet lineup after the T-62 (for some reason?), armed with various ammunition, up to it’s best shell, the 1970s 3BM25 APFSDS ammunition.

The T-55AM-1 is a premium 8.7 main battle tank in the rank 5 soviet lineup available at the low low price of 70 USD (ok it comes with a helicopter). With the difference of 0.3 BR, the T-55AM-1 has almost no disadvantages to the T-55A whatsoever, and the following advantages over the T-55A:

> Upgrade from a 580 HP engine to a 690 HP engine.

> Increased turret traverse

> A large slab of composite armour on the upper frontal plate, making it immune from almost every full caliber AP shell in the game, most APDS rounds, 105mm or lesser HEAT-FS munitions, HESH, and even lower strength APFSDS, and more.

> BDD armour covering the front sides of the turret, making parts of the turret as defended as a M1 Abrams.

> The addition of a laser rangefinder capable of determining a range to a target up to 4.7 km away to the nearest 25m, in about 1 second.

> The addition of a Anti-Tank Guided Missile capable of penetrating 650mm of RHA, with a range of 4km.

The only disadvantage the T-55AM-1 has over the T-55A is the T-55AM-1 loosing 2 degrees of gun elevation.


T-34-85 (5.7) vs T-44 (6.3)

The T-44 has very little disadvantages over the T-34-85, meanwhile, the following advantages are obtained:

> Double the hull armour, 45mm to 90mm of armour, both angled the same.

> 90mm of turret armour to 120mm thick turret.

> Increased mobility, both tanks have the same 500 HP engine, however, the T-44 has a 60km/h top speed while the T-34-85 has a 55km/h speed, as well, the T-44 is 200kg lighter, giving it a higher HP/t (ok 200kg, but for argument, you can very well say both are identical).

> Increased penetration, for the same gun, the T-44 recives the post war BR-367 APCBC shell with 155mm of penetration at 100m, and improved APCR, the BR-367P, with 229mm of penetration at 100m.

The two only disadvantages I can find,
the part of the side of the T-34-85 has some angling, which frankly doesn’t matter at that tier with 45mm of armour,
and the T-34-85 has 2 extra degrees of gun elevation.

Compared to a lower tier, changes in every aspect to the tank qualify at minimum at least a 1.0 BR difference, especially changes as significant as doubling the frontal armour, while not only keeping but increasing mobility and firepower. Meanwhile, the T-44 remains only 0.7 BR above vehicles like the T-34-85, Tiger H1, M4A3E8 (75) W, and more. As well, this tank is 1.0 BR away from, which it does see, tanks like the M4A3E8, Challenger, M18 GMC, Jagdpanzer IV L/70, and more.


Panther D and Tiger H1 (5.7) vs Panther A and Tiger E (5.7)

Tanks of obviously better class with a battle rating difference of 0.0, yet with the Tiger E for example, used to be 6.0 and proved to not be a satisfactory battle rating for it. A separate class of tanks at 5.7 has emerged, tanks that used to be 6.0 even moved to 5.7, despite other 5.7s being obviously worse than the top 5.7s.
Which this isn’t the only example, tanks obviously being worse than other tanks is abundant at other BRs, but no change can be made because they are too weak to be moved up, or too strong to be moved down. Because there are no ‘in between’ BRs to move them to, which BR decompression will do.

Now to add, the Tiger H1 is 5.3 as they realized the difference between the Tiger E and Tiger H1. “This fixed it” – now the Sherman equals the Tiger now? Now 4.3s fight Tigers and now the Sherman is “equal” to the Tiger (literally Tigers vs Shermans) – this is not only an example of BR compression, but that BR compression is getting worse, as now tanks like the ISU-152 and Tiger H1 are being moved down.


M26 (6.3) vs M26E1 and M26E1-1 (6.3)

Another example of a class of tanks that are better than others at the battle rating of 6.3 now.

M26 vs M26E1

> E1 gains about ~1.3 tonnes, decreasing it’s HP/t by about 0.4.

> E1 loses 5 degrees of gun elevation.

> E1 has 202mm/216mm/266mm of penetration at 100mm with APCBC/AP/HVAP (respectively)(Edit: penetration calculator changed this – APCBC is now over 220mm), the M26 has 164mm/188mm/260mm.

Essentially, there is barely anything to justify the M26E1 being the same battle rating as the M26, but yet it underperforms when the comparison to 6.7.

M26 vs M26E1-1

> E1-1 loses about 2.0 HP/t, but keeps the same top speed

That’s literally it, as the E1-1,

> gets the same exact increased gun performance as the M26E1

> Approximately 130mm of angled armour against KEP protection, giving it similar hull armour to the T32.

> 187.4mm of KEP protection at the thinnest part of the turret mantlet, more than the Tiger II’s turret. The Mantlet under the 80mm RHA plate is rounded, so if not hit dead on, slope modifiers apply.

The M26E1-1 loses a little bit of mobility, and it has more armour than a Tiger II on average, AND a better gun than the M26 at it’s own BR. Which these changes do carry over to many other 6.3 tanks, sheading light at multiple classes of tanks that exist at the exact same battle rating. Meanwhile, the M26E1-1 is not necessarily equipped for 6.7 battle rating. It’s mobility is either equal or worse than the Tiger, the gun is inferior to the 8.8cm KwK L/71, and the armour is superior, but not by a large factor.


T-64A (9.3) vs T-72A (9.3)

T-72A gets a more powerful engine to off-set the marginal weight difference, better composite armour almost equal to the T-80B obr. 1985, and the same gun. The T-64A at the same battle rating to the T-72A is undoubtedly inferior.

Which part 2: with a 0.3 BR difference, the T-64B obr. 1984 at 9.7 has a heavy 5 layer composite armour plate, possibly the strongest upper frontal plate in the game, Kontakt-1 ERA upgrade, improved ammunition, and only a few tonne increase, a marginal difference in mobility.


Tiger II (H) (6.7) vs T-54 obr. 1951 (7.7)

To compare 2 different vehicles of different vehicles, that actually encounter each other on the battlefield in War Thunder Realistic Battles, a comparison of 2 old vehicles, that the strength gap between them has only increased, due to the modernization of the game and it’s ammunition, but the failure to accommodate in the battle rating system.

I am not a player that preaches that WW2 vehicles and Cold War vehicles should be separated. However, I do not think there is enough of a gap between many vehicles in this range, due to the modernization of ammunition, and tanks in general, combined with of course, BR compression. This is from the perspective of a T-54 player, I can vouch this is not at all whatsoever, a fair fight.

The Tiger II (H) keeps it’s technical advantage of having more upper frontal plate armour, but quite insignificantly. However, both are about as hard, or easy, to kill. The T-54 has a 100mm RHA plate angled at 60 degrees, while the Tiger has a 150mm plate at about 45, 50 degrees. However, the lower plate of the Tiger II is 100mm, and the turret is 185mm, while the T-54 has a 100mm plate at more of an extreme angle, and extremely small to hit, combined with a 200mm rounded turret, that is hard to hit directly. The T-54 is about as hard, if not harder to kill than this tank that’s main advantage is armour.

At zero cost of mobility. The T-54 has nearly a 15 HP/t ratio, while the Tiger II has a little over 10. 68 tonnes vs 35.5, and a 42 km/h top speed vs a 50 km/h. The T-54 is not a Leopard, however, it is for sure a superior tank by far in mobility, driving like a WW2 medium tank, while being harder to kill than the Tiger II (H).

Which by this assessment, the T-54 would assumable have a weaker or even a slightly better gun, to compensate for being a low profile tank that drives like a medium tank, and is just as hard to kill. If this was the case, it would be a tank that deserves to be a 1.0 BR change, since the Tiger II otherwise wouldn’t be competitive against it at all really.
Yeah not the case. I introduce the 100mm D-10T. APCBC with nearly the same explosive filler, about the same penetration, and double the shell weight.
Well ok, about equal, I would say it would justify a 1.0 BR increase… except,
3BM8: 298mm of penetration APDS at 100mm, 1415 m/s shell velocity. Not major, but now the gun is defiantly better.
3BK5: This shell. 380mm of RHA penetration at all ranges.
This is why the T-54 should never see the Tiger II, and other similar tanks like the T29 and T34, etc. Summary of the tank with what this shell can do:

The Tiger II is about the same strength. About 2/3rds the mobility of the T-54. Combined with this, with the same reload (ok, a 0.1 second difference stock), the T-54 not only equals or outperforms the Tiger II in the other categories, the T-54 can penetrate the Tiger II (H) and almost every other tank it ever meets at literally any range and at almost every angle. Meanwhile, the Tiger II has difficulty even hurting the T-54, I can take it on Kursk, and literally just sit in the open without threat. Main Battle Tanks do everything better than many tanks it meets, not by just a little bit.

This isn’t how the system should work. Every tank should be inferior in an uptier, that should be the case. But every tank should be and deserves to be competitive, even in an uptier. I can give example after example, if you have a problem about a vehicle rank 3-6, 95% of the time, I can trace it to the ultimate answer: BR compression.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 11:27am
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:48pm 
Battle Rating Decompression Suggestion

To be organized and somewhat logical with the suggestions for the new battle ratings of the vehicles, a guideline was created. To show how BR decompression is changed throughout the ranks, the chart shows what battle ratings I have suggested to be decompressed or not decompressed by certain amounts.

NOTE:

> This guideline is not followed 100%. It is a guideline, not a rule. Vehicles that I honestly would fit in the new system in a different place, I placed it there, if you think I am wrong about something, say so. As well, conventional ammunition and cold war ammunition was considered more rank 4-5 for main battle tanks, since the old system did not make any change whatsoever for example, when the T-54’s HEAT was added, from a previous example.

> This is a SUGGESTION, I don’t expect it to be perfect.

> This ultimately is not about the individual battle ratings. This is about BR Decompression: the idea. This gives a vehicle-by-vehicle example of what it could look like.


General Guideline:
https://gyazo.com/7ae61d5a97bb8c97131e560a2ee7d168

United States
https://gyazo.com/cf084aa710f5a1972463e4278ee7f920

Germany https://gyazo.com/affa995fe2cba89fe518d025209fe1c3

United Socialist Soviet Republic
https://gyazo.com/eb5dbe30d8f6684fc136641443b0ea91

United Kingdom
https://gyazo.com/132eb3087a1ab0cf83080e164f17de21

Japan
https://gyazo.com/37edeb35e0e02e47e6c8d66a8ee50536

Italy https://gyazo.com/262db9efdb225b6c990ea284bfe7e2e7

France
https://gyazo.com/a6c2672bad90463a5515e074161e2722


Explanations of each I have decided this time to make via colour-coding, where each range I made a specific colour in order to explain in detail what I have done in my suggestion with them.

“Not Enough Information” means I do not have enough information to make an accurate estimate on what BR they should be. Giving opinions on said vehicles will be taken into consideration.

Italy has not been included in its entirety due their addition being recent.

“The Blue Range”

Overall the same, standard pre 5.7. I have made some minor changes (example: M4A4(SA50)) and stuff, this is an estimate on what could change because of the penetration changes. With BR decompression 5.7+, changes would not be as harmful compared to what it would face in uptiers.


“The Yellow Range”

First change: 5.7, breaking apart the 5.7 range.

Reasons: The first true tier I would say BR compression is relevant and prevalent is 5.7-6.0. You got various classes of 5.7 tanks, where some 5.7 tanks are better than others.
You reach 5.7, and you meet the first major compressed tier of the game. Compression has increased due to the moving of 6.0 vehicles to 5.7, such as the M4A3E2 (76) W, IS-2 obr. 1943, PzKfw V Panther Ausf. A, PzBfw VI (P), and more to 5.7 due to mainly what these vehicles face in uptiers. Because of this, 4.7 is the first tier that meets vehicles in uptiers that are much stronger for a full 1.0 uptier than 1.0-4.3 is accustomed to, and not all, but some vehicles are no longer as competitive as they should be. Combined with this, vehicles start to become less capable at their own tier at 5.7, which is part two. The obvious examples would be the Panther D and the Panther A, or the Tiger H1 and the Tiger E. Here two are undeniably superior and inferior vehicles residing at the same battle rating, which not by necessarily a minor amount. Both inferior vehicles do not possess APCR, vital in uptiers against certain opponents, combined with the Tiger E having a superior lower frontal plate, combined with other minor improvements, while the Panther A has undeniably superior mobility over the Panther D, the main and possibly only real disadvantage for this tank at 5.7. Tanks like the Tiger H1 for say I believe is a viable tank for 4.7 tanks like the Firefly Vc or the M4A1 (76) W to meet, meanwhile, these same tanks should not face tanks like the IS-2, or the uparmoured Tiger Ausf. E.
Which another major advantage of this system is breaking apart the 5.7 battle rating. 5.7 is probably among the most played BR in the game, also making it “a black hole”. Uptiers of lower tanks to 5.7 are quite often. Not a ‘this fixes it’ solution, but this helps break it up. For example, probably one of the best 5.7 lineups in the game: Germany 5.7. German tanks currently at 5.7:
Panther A, Panther D, Tiger E, Tiger H1, Furry Tiger, Tiger (P), Waffletraktor, FlaKtoaster, plus any I missed and the excellent 5.3 alternatives.
Meanwhile, this suggestion breaks apart some of these vehicles. So for example, now you have players playing both 5.7 and 6.0, perhaps splitting the ‘black hole’ of a BR apart, at least a little.


6.0 and 6.3.

6.3 is another grouped battle rating, and at this battle rating, separate classes of vehicles exist. An example, like earlier, is the M26. The M26 is a great tank at 6.3, however, it’s not the best at 6.3 even if so. As mentioned, the M26 vs M26E series, or the M26 vs the T-44. But the mentioned vehicles are not necessarily equipped for 6.7.
So do you know what would fix this?

6.0: Most of the vehicles at 6.0 remain at its equivalent, 6.3. However, there is a mesh of 6.0 and 6.3 vehicles that are not very different, meanwhile, these 6.0 vehicles are stronger than many 6.0s, and the 6.3s are too strong for 6.0. The example would be fore example, the M26 (*cough* again *cough*) vs the Panther Ausf. F. The Panther F used to be 6.3, however, it was obsolete at 6.3 because of the higher class of 6.3s. The 6.3 M26 I would say it is about the same strength at the 6.0 Panther F. So should the M26 go to 6.0?
No.
Compare the Panther F to the Panther G, comes to the conclusion of the better tank. The Panther F has increased frontal turret armour and better turret in general, and the same hull, plus optical rangefinder, with the only cost of like, 1 second of reload? The M26 I would judge to say being the approximate same strength as the Panther A. So what would the M26 do at 6.0? Everything, the M26 is already a total monster in a downtier at 6.3, if used right. Yet it isn’t the best 6.3. Yet it can’t go to 6.0 without just slaughtering the 5.0-6.0 range. Which even brings in, does it even deserve to fight all the vehicles it faces in the 6.3 range? Lets say we put the Panther F at 6.3 – does it deserve to face M4A3E8s? Challenger? The M4A3’s APCBC has 127mm at 10m, the Panther F’s turret is 120mm of RHA, a smaller target, and has a gun that can blow away the M4 at a much farther range than it can even hurt the Panther F (at least without loading APCR), while being on top of all that, it’s a medium tank: it’s not a Ru-251, but it’s faster than heavy tanks on top of all that. Does this tank deserve to fight these tanks? A M4A3E8, or any 5.0 or 5.3 tank for the most part, simply is not competitive to a high strength 6.0 or a 6.3 tank.

OK so the ultimate point: what’s the decompression here?

6.0 goes to 6.3, as 5.7 is now 5.7 and 6.0. 6.0 overall stays at its BR as 6.3.

However,

The strongest current 6.0 tanks move to 6.7, while the regular current 6.0s are 6.3.

Meanwhile, current 6.3 goes to 7.0.

Creating a new, in between battle rating: 6.7. This battle rating can see the uptier of the best 6.0s that are stronger than others, such as the Panther F. Meanwhile, this creates a duel purpose BR for the lower end of current 6.3 to move tanks lower than the upper strength 6.3 tanks, such as the M26E, and the T-44, and more.

Combined with this, now tanks at 5.0, 5.3, and even low 5.7 won’t have to suffer against top tier 6.3s. Because, does the Tiger H1 compete against the M26E1-1 at all? No, by no means, it cannot penetrate the tank frontally, perhaps with the exception of a pathetically small weak spot like the MG port or the turret ring. Meanwhile, they have similar mobility, and the E1-1 has a way better gun, making it better in every aspect, by more than just a little bit. Or for example, the T-34-85 obr. 1943 vs the T-44. Like mentioned before, these tanks have a 1.0 difference, but one has double the armour, same if not slightly increased mobility, and better ammunition, with no real considerable downfall of the tank. The T-34-85 obr. 1943 is simply not competitive next to the T-44. Or at least not as competitive as say a T-34 obr. 1940 (3.3) is next to a T-34-57 obr. 1940 (4.3) for example.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 2:04pm
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:49pm 
“The Orange Range”

6.7

6.7 is among another battle rating that is quite popular. As well, it also brings in some powerful vehicles, that are stronger than some of the same battle rating, yet not necessarily 7.0 worthy. Thus, 6.7 I decided to make an even split: 7.3 and 7.7. 7.3 represents a little more of the 6.7 range, while 7.0 represents the best 6.7 tanks, such as the Tiger II Sla.16, Ru 251, and T29 has examples.

With the range now reaching into the 7.3 and 7.7 range, 5.7 tanks in game will no longer meet current 6.7 tanks, which are not competitive against these tanks. Not to say these tanks are unkillable, I think it isn’t any secret that a single 5.7 tank vs a 6.7 tank will end in that 6.7 tank’s victory perhaps 4/5 times. At this point, 6.3 tanks, current in game, the 6.0 tanks, are required to meet 7.3 tanks that are the equivalent of the standards of 6.7 (T34, T30, Centurion Mk.3, and more). Meanwhile, 6.7, the equivalent of low class 6.3, high class 6.0, is required to meet the stronger side of 6.7. This includes the Ru-251, Tiger II (H) Sla.16, T29, Panther II, and others I perhaps missed. Because of this, the 5.7-6.7 range I hope is competitive in all aspects. Tanks will perform equal to each other at their own battle ratings, hopefully at least, and all vehicles will also hopefully be competitive when even up tiered; inferior still as it is an up tiered, but more comparable to the lower range, where vehicles are not as radical when it comes to their differences upon changes among the BRs.


Above 6.7


This was the hardest to consider in my opinion, as this is when Main Battle Tanks with HEAT-FS ammunition start becoming prevalent. I wanted to demonstrate as well, BR decompression also can be used as a tool to separate more advanced vehicles from conventional style vehicles, while still maintaining balance. This isn’t a biased hate against HEAT-FS, this is, ‘by the way, you forgot to update the system to accommodate the 400mm penetrating round at all ranges shell’. The result is vehicles that rely on armour no longer having their armour relevant, as well as, BR compression.

Note, some vehicles do deserve to face HEAT-FS. HEAT-FS should be encountered in your IS-4, or your Maus, but it is more so than I think it should. As well, I do not target vehicles like light tanks and tank destroyers with HEAT-FS, but rather the main battle tanks that do in fact, have armour, mobility, and a turret, as well as the good gun and the HEAT-FS shells.

To start with 7.0, the lower end of the 7.0 spectrum is designed for conventional, but powerful tanks. These include the Jagdtiger, Tiger II mit 10.5cm KwK L/68, T95, T32 and more. This will make them stronger and more relevant, but rather more balance and not overpowered, as tanks like as mentioned are too powerful for 6.7, yet their armour will be more effective as a greater disconnect between the tanks are as shown. The lower end of the 7.0 spectrum is now 8.0.

8.3 is designed for the more conventional 7.3s, and the stronger 7.0s. This includes the HEAT-FS carrying Patton, T32E1 (superior to the T32), IS-3, etc.

As I should note: I tried to keep all vehicles the same based on their performance in game currently. However, only 1 vehicle I know I actually changed is the BMP-1. Previously 7.3, I represented the BMP-1 and BMP-1 as separated vehicles, as frankly I am seriously not a fan of their combination. 2 separate vehicles of radically different strengths were combined, and it benefits almost nobody here.
The BMP-1 is comparable to the Ru-251, with inferior armour and mobility, and a low velocity gun, but a superior reload and manual guided ATGMs.
The BMP-1P is a very strong vehicle at current 7.3, with semi-automatic guided ATGMs.

In general, the 7.3-7.7 range is a mess in my suggestion. In this, I introduce more so balancing tanks with the ammunition they’re using. I think it is about time to consider what ammunition they fire in the matchmaking, and such. Combined with this, 7.3-7.7 has varying strengths of vehicles all mushed against each other. Of course, if there is a complaint on where I have placed vehicles in this, criticism is not only accepted but wanted.

8.0 is now 9.7, to put into perspective at what point BR decompression is at in this suggestion. Between 5.3 and 8.0, 1.7 BRs have been created, helping with the significant strength differences in uptiers and downtiers in this range, and creating 5 new BR slots, allowing for more micromanaged BR changes, which are not possible in the current system.

8.3-8.7 becomes some 9.7, but mostly 10.0-11.0. 7.3+ in this suggestion is the biggest changes in the BR system.
9.7 is BR 8.0 currently, and the absolute strongest 7.7s and weakest 8.3s.
10.0s are for the standard 8.3s (T-55A, T-62, M60A1).
10.3s are for the increased strength 8.3s, and the lowest strength 8.7s (M60A2, IT-1, Chieftain Mk.5, AMX-30B2).
10.7s are for the standard 8.7 tanks (Leopard A1A1, AMX-30B2 BRENUS).
11.0 are for the strongest 8.7s, and a couple weak 9.0s (T-55AM-1, Leopard A1A1 mit 120mm Rheinmetall L/44, Chieftain Mk.10)

Summary of the “Orange Range”

I believe the gameplay will change significantly for some of these vehicles in these ranges (hopefully for the better). This is my theory:

8.0-8.7
I believe this will be the last range of conventional gameplay. The strongest of WW2 tanks will be met with late ‘40s vehicles, and even medium tanks with weak HEAT-FS. But this range will not be as extreme as it is now. M60s will not be meeting Tiger IIs. This will be conventional style 1940 cold war tanks, low strength HEAT-FS tanks, vs WW2 era ‘Supertanks’ and prototypes.


9.0-11.0
I believe this will be very representative of the late 1950s and 1960s, early 1970s tanks. The proposed range I believe will be interesting, as there are tanks that can shoot off conventional style ammunition, however, int this range, it’ll be like the pre-composite armour era of War Thunder, where armour is pretty much just to slow down the shells at this point. With HEAT-FS and APDS, HESH, and APFSDS, these tanks will nearly pretty much ignore armour. Armour can stop some KEP ammunition most likely, however, I think it would be a very interesting rank to play, a reminder of when the best policy at top tier was ‘not to get hit’. Only with the Magach 3 for example, but mainly 10.7 and 11.0 is when defenses become these supershells start to become unreliably prevalent. ERA will be able to stop CE ammunition, or at least if they don’t hit gaps between the ERA. The T-55AM-1 and Chieftain Mk.10 would introduce composite armour, however, the entire tank are not made of this armour, and with plenty of gaps. But overall, this is what I expect, and what I hope, might be the product of this: this would be very interesting to see I think, a little range representative of the 1960s where armour could stop some APDS and APCBC, but overall armour is irrelevant, possibly leading to some creative gameplay.

“The Purple Range”

Covers the majority of the 9.0-9.7 range in the current game, now 11.3-12.3.

11.3 covers most of 9.0 currently. This includes tanks like the XM-1 series, T-62M-1, and others.

11.7 contains upper 9.0 tanks and lower 9.3 tanks, such as the MBT/KPz 70 and the T-64A

Both above never have to fight top tier again. As I think it is fair to say, a T-64A vs a Type 90, or a XM-1 vs a T-80B obr. 1985, or even the M60 RISE vs a T-64B obr. 1984 is hardly a competitive fight.

12.0 is the product of the higher 9.3 range, and some of the 9.7 range. These include tanks that are better than other 9.3 counterparts, such as the T-72A, which is superior to the T-64A in almost every aspect, as for an example. Another includes the Challenger Mk. 2, at least in it’s current state. The AMX-40 was placed here, however, I am unsure of this as it does have the 2nd best ammunition in game, if I recall correctly.

12.3 is full 9.7 BR, with the T-64B obr. 1984, Challenger Mk.3, and Leopard 2K.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 2:04pm
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:49pm 
“The Green Range”

12.7 and 13.0 is 10.0, 13.0 being the top tier BR in this decompression suggestion, as of with the vehicles presented in 1.85.
12.7 includes the lower end of the range. This includes the M1 Abrams, and perhaps the T-80B obr. 1985, however, I have received the indication the T-80B was buffed since then, so I am unsure how to rank it. 12.7 also allows for more room for lesser 10.0 style vehicles, such as earlier Leopard 2s, Type 90 prototypes, T-80B obr. 1976 and/or obr. 1983, various T-72 tanks, and more. However, I believe even this suggestion for top tier is temporary, as to consider how unhistorical the vehicles are currently, and what we could see in the future of the game, I believe decompression of Cold War to even 14.0 or 15.0 (which isn’t entirely out of the question: for example, the T-90 during the April Fools event was 14.3) will be essential at some point, considering the ammunition we can see, and the sheer number of vehicles that could be represented in the future. But as of now, I am suggesting 13.0 as the top tier BR of War Thunder, where 13.0 would be home to the M1IP, possibly the T-80B obr. 1985, Type 90, and Leopard 2A4.

Over 13.0, would be the newer “Rank VII” tanks, which I have estimated up to 14.0, considering the current ammunition (high tier has rather unrealistic ammunition selection and penetration). As the M1IP is placed at 13.0, 13.3 would include the M1A1, with it’s superior 120mm L/44. 13.7 holds the T-80U, with it’s 125mm gun and strong armour, and 1250 HP engine many would consider it slightly stronger. This is also where assumably stronger tanks like the M1A1(HA) would go. 14.0 would include tanks like the Leopard 2A5, with it’s L/44 and 700+ mm of turret KEP protection, 1500 HP engine, etc. This is assuming current strength, with DM33, in my “future tank section”, a theoretical section showing BR decompression could still work, even with more modern tanks and more accurate ammo options, 14.3 might be more accurate with the realistic DM53 option this tank should receive in the future (once more powerful opponents are implemented obviously, such as the M1A2 series, Type 10, C1 Ariete WAR package, T-80UA and UE-1, and more).









SPAAGs, SAMs, and Rank VII

Rank VII is mentioned, but overall ignored in this suggestion. There are simply not enough vehicles, as the Rank VII vehicles in game are few and not equal, and many more tanks of the late-cold war strength and early modern strength are required to extend this suggestion reliably post Rank VI.

SPAAGs and SAMs however are not mentioned, because this allows SPAAs to be balanced by the aircraft they face. The ZSU-57-2 was mentioned where it is, because there is not really a way to lower it due to it’s amazing anti-tank capabilities where it already is at, but SPAAs like the ZSU-23-4 for example have relatively weak penetration for their BR, so moving them around won’t really hurt ground forces. Because of this, they can be more likely to be balanced based on what jets they face: considering in this suggestion, jets would not be as high as top tier tanks, SPAA can be moved around more to match the jets they could face. Or they could stay at their relative BRs in the tech tree, which could work too.



Helicopters

https://gyazo.com/673c51784478b8baccab06fdd924627b

NEI means “Not Enough Information,” I do not know enough personally to judge them accurately.

Not to spend too much time on this section, this is a suggested change on how helicopters could fit in this. However, I am unsure as a whole, as balancing helicopters is simply not possible as long as they can shoot unhistorical up to 8km with precision.



The Future of High Tier

As a demonstration that even if they added almost every Main Battle Tank we could possibly see in the future, this is a composition of future vehicles that might be a possibility in the future. I don’t know what Gaijin plans, I am not a modern vehicle expert, etc., but this is an example that it does work.

The vehicles presented go up to 15.0 BR, a nice and even BR achievable with future vehicles with the approximate shown setup. I also included a couple nations not represented that could possibly be an option in the future, to show it still works. I chose the following vehicles as “15.0”:
M1A2 SEP v2
Leopard 2A6M
Leopard 2A7
T-90MS
Challenger 2 TES
Type 10 (48T)(L/55)
Ariete Mk.2
Leclerc series XXI
Stridsvagn 122B+ (L/55) [Sweden]
Merkava IV [Israel]
Type 99A [China]

The reason I did not choose tanks like the T-14 is the simple fact that not every nation has a competitor, prototype or not. If I had to guess, if all vehicles were added, 16.0 would be more accurate
(US as example)
M1A2C (15.3)
M1A2D (15.7)
XM1A3 (16.0)

But the problem as mentioned, it is not possible without inventing tanks to say, for example, that every nation has a T-14 and XM1A3 competitor (which how much do we know about the XM1A3 to be fair?), so this is assuming top tier is a top tier that every nation can be balanced with.


But for the logic of proving that this form of BR decompression can fit with future vehicles if added, this is my interpretation on how future vehicles if added would work:


United States
https://gyazo.com/605fd682c2a3d6bf0d53ea2fd0b319ff

Germany
https://gyazo.com/d4b0a49d637a772bf7966c3217d1b3b8

Russia
https://gyazo.com/88bb65ffdd707deb3bd908e7c701f311

United Kingdom
https://gyazo.com/612baf5a9b50a03342481d39c21aee64

Japan
https://gyazo.com/443d123796c0753a039bc531d39c16d7

Italy
https://gyazo.com/46022fd4e0ab9c765a10035bbf1876e9

France
https://gyazo.com/6db24ebd06112ccdcc8835969e363d05

Sweden
https://gyazo.com/f83455516669dd323c00e0a9a083a378

Israel
https://gyazo.com/5fa9ddd9cf9ff8d1f3222aa611b0db33

People’s Republic of China
https://gyazo.com/d5ac9d34ed6d1e1f9e6c6f3748ecf941


For reference, these consider realistic ammunition and armour. The middle category lists the “best ammunition” this tank uses in this consideration, based on what is probably realistic.

But in this BR decompression situation, a clean even top tier BR is easily achievable, and can be balanced for all nations. However, some vehicles like the Russian T-14, German Leopard 2A7+, and future prototype vehicles like the M1A2D, XM1A3, and Leopard 2A8 are ignored due the simple idea that other nations simply do not have vehicles that could compete with them. They can be found in yellow on the side, because they are so strong, in at least for a War Thunder scenario.

But this version of top tier does show the possibility of a nice, clean top tier, 15.0 (it might be higher like 18.0 or so if they added World War I vehicles and stuff ever, at some point in the future, but in the current game this is the possible scenario). All nations have at least one top tier tank theoretically. And this scenario is not unrealistically high, this is completely supported by Gaijin themselves, years ago. In the Modern Tank April Fools event, with Leopard 2A5s vs T-90As, the T-90A was listed as “14.3 BR”, while I listed it as even 14.0 in this version. So this is a realistic moderate interpretation on how high tanks should go.

This is an estimate of what top tier could look like, to prove that BR decompression would improve the future game as well as current.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 2:05pm
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:49pm 
Aircraft BR Decompression Suggestion (6.7-10.0)

General Guideline
https://gyazo.com/3980f0319c9d6ed8c13b6096034abffc

United States
https://gyazo.com/6f8bf4ce8ee2c14bd954d028f79a3653

Germany
https://gyazo.com/6e9cb0d15b4830cd5c85a6c7fa2a9485

United Soviet Socialist Republic
https://gyazo.com/7d179d5bf36a386951bc0143c0078e9b

United Kingdom
https://gyazo.com/2bdeead682f33f40bf6cc193009290b2

Japan
https://gyazo.com/a844a176ecffd8de29f7008aed25b608

Italy
https://gyazo.com/b18fa08f8d933ab9f873fc20ac247a1c

France
https://gyazo.com/1ea265457fd8e386d80f436ac72bc36b

Considering potential future vehicles

General Guideline
https://gyazo.com/bef01fdb85795261a6b4987266be0d70

United States
https://gyazo.com/dae378719f72aab47b5b4eff2a09ddf0

Germany
https://gyazo.com/85d6e2cf9a29dea7b7c159c707ef706f

United Soviet Socialist Republic
https://gyazo.com/3913570d04bd47a7fdab03270b14d7fb

United Kingdom
https://gyazo.com/4d09af38c64b66abc57e2cfbe9850e5a

Japan
https://gyazo.com/2ef459eafffcc2530fb509bab3e1cbbd

Italy
https://gyazo.com/00bd1673b7cd7bb8816b579ae8c4fa85

France
https://gyazo.com/2e488cf28d130a458a3067504d3e4040


Explanation:

”The Gray Region”

No change.


”The Green Region”

7.3 and 7.7, has been increased from 2 BRs to 3 BRs. The reason for this change is the presence of not a couple, but multiple vehicles of varying strength that exist in this place. MiG-9 variants, for example, see no difference here, nor is the MiG-9 weak enough to be 7.0 or the MiG-9/Late strong enough to compete with some 7.7s. Another example would be the German premium Sea Hawk being superior to the native British one at the same BR.

Combined with this, just the varying strength differences between 7.0 and 8.0 are rather deterring. At 7.0, you get the Me 262A heavy fighter, with a 800 some km/h top speed, while at 8.0 it can meet an La-200, with 3 heavier autocannons instead, but a 1,101 km/h top speed, and radar.


”The Blue Range”

Splitting apart 8.0 and 8.3 makes more aircraft relevant, such as the different Meteor variants for example. Combined with this, 7.0s won’t deal with 8.0s anymore.


”The Red Range

8.7 doesn’t exist currently. 9.0 and 9.3 is covered in “The Yellow Range”. At this BR range, the MiG-15 is at the same battle rating as the superior MiG-15bis, which is the same BR still as the superior MiG-17, which is still the same BR as the superior CL-13a. 9.0 Jets is probably the biggest “Black Hole” BR in the game, every thing of varying strength is clumped together at the same BR, whether they should be or not.

Decompressing 9.0 will make suddenly many jets relevant again. The F-84A will no longer be outclassed by the same BR F-84F. The MiG-15 is no longer the same BR as the MiG-15bis and MiG-17. And more.

As well, 8.0s will only fight the weaker side of 9.0, and will not have to deal with CL-13s and MiG-17s in some cases.


”The Yellow Range”

9.3


”The Purple Range”


Top Tier. With so many vehicles as a potential, I wanted to show how this suggestion could hold up with the future implementation of these vehicles. I only have an example size.


The reason I believe a difference between these though in the future is for two reasons:

1) The future implementation of jets.

2) Many 9.0s do not compete well against these.

The reason I say that that is this is a situation where 1,400+ km/h jets are fighting jets that barely reach 1,100 and 1,000 km/h. Not only that, but the jets in question have missiles – not great missiles, but still operational missiles capable of downing these aircraft, so if they run, they’ll either get chanced down, get missile’d, or be forced to turn and fight, which if a good player is playing the supersonic aircraft, they will be untouchable in a 1v1.

An often argument to justify this is “but 9.0s can easily dodge supersonics”. This is true. Supersonics can go faster, climb higher, but have difficulty against a 9.0 forced into a turnfight. However, the 9.0 can just climb up or zoom away, and come again for another pass, and another pass, etc. The jets in question have such high acceleration compared to the previous, that this isn’t balanced at all - this illusion is the exact same illusion given when fighting a biplane in a Bf 109: that I-15 can dodge attacks all day, but it’ll never catch up to the Bf 109, never outclimb the Bf 109, etc., all it can do is continually dodge attacks, hope the player makes a mistake to get good shots off, or runs out of ammo or interest.


I as well include what currently they could do (going up to 11.3 instead of 12.0), since these vehicles, which exist as an example, do not currently exist in game.



Jet BR Decompression

As a final thought, and to relate this to the rest of the thread, which is rather tank oriented, in this system, the vehicles would be more or less more correlating with their years.

As of current, for example, the 10.0 MiG-19PT (~1961) is the same battle rating as the 1985 T-80B in game.

In this BR decompression scenario, the years correlate better as the 1952 (first flight: 1951) MiG-17 is actually the same battle rating as the T-54 obr. 1951, to show relative perspective. The 1956 F-100D still is just 4 years off from the M60 it shares a BR with.

Of course, years however don’t matter as much. It is about the balance. But I believe this would be balanced, and would allow jets to be more competitive against one another, allow jets that are obviously inferior to others to have gaps between each other for balance, room for future jets, etc.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 11:30am
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:49pm 
Negatives of BR Decompression (Cons)

A minor increased Que times for Rank III-VI

With the advent of 1.0 to 10.0 changing to 1.0 to 13.0, this means there should be an average que time change of +30% theoretically.

1.0-5.0
There should be very little change in this region, with BR Decompression. If there is a minor difference, it might be because some of the more experienced players are playing high tier again, since it will be (hopefully) more fun.

5.3-8.7
5.3 to 8.7 changes to 5.3 to 11.0. This means theoretically, the BR range increases approximately by 67%, meaning it is possible, hypothetically, we could see a 67% increases in que times. So, for example, a 1 minute que time now becomes 1 minute and 40 seconds. So this brings up a question: would you wait 1 minute and 40 seconds to not fight a T-54 obr. 1951 in a Panther II?

9.0-10.0
9.0 to 10.0 now changes to 11.3 to 13.0. This means theoretically, the BR range increases approximately by 70%, meaning it is possible, hypothetically, we could see a 70% increase in que times. So for example, a 1 minute and 30 second que time can become a 2 minute 33 second que time. This means you would have to wait, in this situation, 63 seconds longer, in return for not fighting T-80Bs in your M60A1 RISE, M1IPs in your T-64A, Type 90s in your Chieftain Mk.10, etc.


Essentially, in theory, one can consider que times as a resource. For the 5.3-10.0 range, the average rate of change is an approximate 64% increase in this range. You are essentially trading in probably, say 20-120 seconds in a increased que time, hypothetically, in return for many vehicles not being hopelessly outclasses in many cases when experiencing a full 1.0 uptier. A Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus fighting a T-55AM-1 essentially means unless the T-55 is caught off guard (which superior mobility and stabilizer can actually minimize this issue some), a T-55AM-1 doesn’t just have the minor advantage a tank 1.0 BR above the another tank typically has, but the T-55AM-1 has a undeniably large advantage, with its already strong-to-conventional-ammunition 100mm RHA angled upper frontal plate, and it’s rounded 180mm rounded turret, the composite on top of that makes the tank immune at all but closer ranges, which at close range, the Maus needs to aim at specific points for penetration. Among this, said Maus has it’s armoured nullified by the 3BM25 APFSDS sabot round carried by said T-55AM, but as well as the 650mm penetrating Anti-Tank Guided Missile that can obliterate the Maus up to 4km, at essentially any angle. The Maus has no advantage as it’s other main category in the trio, mobility, is pathetic in comparison. I do not need to describe the mobility of a tank that weighs more than a loaded B-52H Stratofortress.

Considering I do not believe the majority of the playerbase is in the mindset “I must get in a battle now, I have to leave for work in 5 minutes”, I believe this will be a change accepted by a vast majority of the playerbase. Considering battles never last shorter than really 5 minutes, and often last 10 to 15 minutes, a single minute or two minute increase in que time, maximum, if not a few seconds or a couple dozen seconds increase, would hardly even be that noticeable, and an excellent trade for the change to not fight a Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger II (H) Ausführung B Königstiger in an Assault Tank M4A3E2 (76) W Sherman Jumbo.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 11:30am
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:50pm 
Advantages of BR Decompression (Pros)

The major, obvious advantage would be all vehicles being able to compete in an uptier or a downtier, as this is not the case in the current game. Once you reach high Rank III or above, one starts to find as a whole that fighting vehicles in a full +1.0 uptier, and in some cases even a +0.7 uptier, is no longer overall that much of a competitive ordeal. Although these tanks can kill each other, facing a T-44 or a T34 heavy tank in say, a Tiger feels like if you were fighting tanks 1.0 or 1.3 BR higher than yourself at a lower tier. Or if fighting a M60A1 in an IS-3, the IS-3 can still kill the M60 with a well-placed shot, it no longer as a whole that competitive with a heavy tank that can be penetrated and crew destroyed instantly with 400mm HEAT-FS penetration from a Main Battle Tank with armour making it largely resilient to a 122mm, superior mobility, superior reloading time, as well as a full stabiliser system. Another more obvious one that I see often would be the Tiger II mit 10.5cm KwK L/68, which theoretically seems to be equal to tanks like the T32, however, it is often hated due to the enemies it faces mainly in uptiers. However, for the most part, I do not think I need to explain this more, as I have in detailed many times earlier, as well as anyone who has played high tier would understand.

Another advantage of BR decompression would be the breaking up of “Black Hole” battle ratings, where a large number of vehicles reside that players like to play, causing often uptiers and downtiers. A major example would be 5.7 BR. Many tanks and players reside at 5.7, however, in this suggestion, 5.7 has been sliced into two main BRs, some of the more powerful comparable to 6.0s into a third. Although I am not sure if this would “solve” these “Black Hole” BRs, but this surely will help them, as the playerbase will be slightly split between two or more BRs. Similar cases can be seen at 6.7, 7.7, and more.

A third advantage would be making more vehicles relevant, compared to the previous scenarios. An example would be a minor, but relevant change, the Tiger H1 to the Tiger E. The Tiger E is armed with APCR as a backup shell, and a hull mounted machine gun, but the main upgrade that I do believe qualifies for a +0.3 BR difference would be the increased frontal armour on the lower frontal plate. Before, if people remember before the Tiger E, the lower frontal plate was the biggest weakspot as it’s large size and it’s post penetration often resulted with transmission damage at minimum, if not killing the entire crew, which was an often result for it’s death. However, now with an additional 30mm of armour to the lower frontal plate, it is no longer a weakspot for the tank. The smaller upper superstructure is now the preferred place to shoot, and I believe this difference is enough for a 0.3 BR adjustment. Which is also solidified by the vehicle’s mobility. With no real difference to the vehicle’s weight, the Tiger E has a 700 HP engine, meanwhile, the Tiger E has a 650 HP engine. Increased frontal armour and a more powerful engine makes the Tiger H1 frankly irrelevant. There is no reason to take this tank out really, other than if you simply don’t have the Tiger E, or you need a backup and you’re not a Panther kind of person. BR Decompression will fix this, as I believe all tanks should be relevant in some fashion, and the Tiger H1 simply isn’t
Which the Tiger H1 isn’t the only example, this does not adhere to a single tank. Another obvious example would be the Tiger II Sla.16, which is the exact same scenario: more side armour this time (turret), AA MG (granted this part is probably irrelevant), and the same +50 HP engine increase. The Tiger II Sla.16 as we probably agree is not at all worthy of 7.0, meanwhile, the Tiger II (H) at 6.3 would be an utter slaughter. There is no 6.8 BR, or any of that fancy stuff. This also applies to tanks like the T29, which is superior to the T34 and T30, with very high penetrating ammunition with the same chassis, however if you compare it to 7.0 tanks, the same situation arises of it not being the greatest of 7.0. Continuations include the T32 vs the T32E1, the Ru-251 vs the T92, T-72A vs the T-64A, and more, this is not a rare thing. Tanks that are obviously better than others exist at the same battle rating, but they cannot move up without making the tank obsolete, but cannot be moved down without making the tanks lower than it obsolete, thus have no place to go. There are several defining features, like the breaking up “Black Hole” BRs and a few to follow, but this is probably the most defining feature of why battle rating decompression is better in every aspect to changing to a +/-0.7 or +/-0.3 system, because it can do everything these systems can do, but better, and can do way, way more than these systems can do.

Another major feature of Battle Rating Decompression is to create more ‘in between’ battle ratings that can fit new vehicles. An example I bet Gaijin Entertainment had to discuss was where to put the T32E1 when it was first added. It was better than the 7.0 counterpart, but worse than the heavy tanks that reside at 7.3. The same applies to just recently when they added the T-72A, where it is better or equal to the T-64A in almost every aspect, but undoubtedly inferior to the T-64B obr. 1984. So I can imagine that this idea is not new to them, I know they have encountered this: we have a vehicle that we need to fit in, but there is no place to fit it. BR Decompression can solve or at least help this situation. For example: speaking of the T-64, Gaijin in the past explicitly said that they would like to eventually have every variant of the T-64. But I have to say now, and ask how are they going to implement them. Currently, the T-64A resides at 9.3, while that T-64B obr. 1984 / BV (the best [Soviet] T-64 to the best of my knowledge) resides at 9.7. So if they added every single T-64 right now, I must ask how they plan on fitting 4 T-64 variants that I can think of that would be better than the T-64A and worse than the T-64B (1984) into the game. This is extremely clear at high tier, as they have skipped literally hundreds of vehicles in the rush to 1980s and 1990s vehicles. There is a large arsenal of vehicles not represented, that if they modeled and tried to implement, there is no logical place for them, because you might find that tank that is better than the 8.3 counterpart is worse than the 8.7, and there is no 8.5 battle rating in game.
Or naming specific vehicles as an example, lets say they want to add the T-34-85 obr. 1945 and T-34-85 obr. 1946. The T-34-85 (1945) is more powerful than the 1944 in game. So it goes to 6.0? It isn’t that strong, so it probably will go to 5.7. Now again, you have two tanks of different strengths being the same BR. Then the T-34-85 (1946) could go 6.0, with APCBC to help it perhaps, but even still it there is 0.3 away from the T-44, which has double the armour, same gun, and same mobility – a lot of difference for a 0.3 difference, and as well you have 2 different tanks at 5.7. This isn’t including the 1960 and 1969 (T-34-85M), which would have to be the same BR as the 1946 or as the T-44. Meanwhile, there are perfect places for the T-34s in BR decompression: T-34-85 (DT) is 5.3, T-34-85 (1944) is 5.7 (low current 5.7), T-34-85 (1945) is 6.0 (high 5.7), T-34-85 (1946) is 6.3 (low 6.0), T-34-85 (1960) is 6.7 (low 6.3/high 6.0)(I don’t see why not early 85mm HEAT-FS for the BR), T-34-85M is 7.0 with the T-44 (T-44 is same speed with double armour, but 85M could get HEAT-FS to compensate?). This isn’t possible in the current system without having multiple vehicles the same BR.
Or another Russian example: lets say they add the T-90A next update. It would be 10.0 assembly. Now let’s assume they want to give every T-72/90 in between. 9.3 is the T-72A, 10.0 is T-90A. Tanks that can fit between, T-72/90s only – T-72B obr. 1984, T-72B obr. 1985, T-72B obr. 1989, T-90. This is excluding the T-72BU prototype and the T-72BA/B2/B3s. Now where would they go?
Without rewriting the BR system to include 6.0, 6.1, 6.2, etc., there is only one other solution I can conceivably think of: BR Decompression.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 11:30am
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:50pm 
Other Proposed Solutions/Matchmaker changes
(And why BR Decompression is better than them in every aspect)


+/- 0.7 matchmaker

A +/-0.7 matchmaker is the idea of changing the matchmaker, which currently in almost all gamemodes except for Simulator Battles (does it’s own thing currently), Helicopter Battles, and Air Arcade Battles (a formula it follows does allow for in some cases, a +/-1.3 system) follows a +/-1.0 matchmaking system. This would reduce the BR spread of the matchmaker, providing a more forgiving uptier system. However, this follows the same issue of increasing que times. But, this doesn’t just increase que times to the effected region, but to the entire spread.

Because of the nature of a +/-0.7 system, this is applied to all battle ratings in the game. Doing this will increase que times in say, low tier battles, and effect the spread of low tier battles. But this is unnecessary. As I have mentioned in my examples of the evidence of BR compression, the difference between tanks in a full 1.0 difference is extremely minimal, this means the Pz IV C that has only 20mm of armour and penetration difference won’t even see the F1 that is pretty much the exact same tank performance wise. I do not even notice when I get uptiered or downtiered when playing in the 1.0-4.3 region, it isn’t until like 4.7 when I actually start paying attention to see if I have been uptiered to 5.7 or not. Changing low tier in it’s current state I believe is completely unnecessary, to ‘fix’ high tier with this system, you’re unnecessarily, and I would go as far as saying, negatively impacting pretty much over half of the entire matchmaking system (1.0-5.3 requires almost no change).

Moreover, even when it comes to ‘fixing’ the high tier system, which I am using ‘’ on purpose, even it cannot do it as good as BR decompression does. Everything a +/- 0.7 system does, BR decompression can do better. In a BR decompression situation, the BR range can be compressed and decompressed at certain points to accommodate the range, while a 0.7 system is equal at all BRs. So for example, perhaps 5.7-6.3 say needs less BR decompression than 8.3-9.0 does. In some places, like 1.0-5.3, it can retain the standard system, while at say 5.7-6.7, it can do moderate BR decompression, maybe 7.0-7.3 needs only light BR decompression, while 7.7 needs major BR decompression. Just as an example, BR decompression is more dynamic and can be applied differently, while a 0.7 system is not flexible. The +/- 0.7 system essentially is a simple solution, while BR Decompression is a more complex but better working in every aspect solution; which I do believe complex issues require complex solutions.


+/-0.3 System

Same as the +/-0.7 system, but even more impractical. This is a massive que time increase at all tiers, more so than any BR decompression or +/-0.7 system, and is completely inflexible and simple. Again, BR decompression can do it way better, while not waiting 13 minutes a match for a game with only 3 players on each side.


+/-0.0 System (no spread, no uptiering)

No.

Combined BRs of 74 different combinations.

11 gamemodes.

4 servers.

Discluding time of day variations in the matchmaker.

It won’t work. You would need the playerbase of WoT + COD + Battlefield + and more to consider this, and not get a horrendous matchmaker, I don’t think even the most hardcore players would wait 45 minutes for a battle.


Player Determined BR Spread (Slider)

It has been suggested before to have a ‘slider’, where a player can pre-determine what the BR spread they want to be placed in. The concept sounds like a good compromise, and actually a fairly smart idea: allow the players to choose their own +/-X BR system. However, the more you think about this, even this idea is not as good as BR Decompression, and wouldn’t work well in reality (as reality is often disappointing).

First of all, obvious one: que time increases in all gamemodes. However, it would be more so than the +/-0.7 system, as lots of players might choose the .7 system, but there would be those who choose the 0.3 or 0.0 system than those would probably would leave it in a 1.0 system.

Another disadvantage of this system would be those trolling with a large BR spread with a low tier vehicle. Those rare numbers might choose a 1.3 spread in some cases might do so for higher que times, but this also puts your team at an disadvantage. Meanwhile, you’ll always have that guy who sets the slider to max and now you have a BT-7 or a Sturmpanzer II fighting Abrams. Which you can do now, but you either need a high tier vehicle to uptier yourself, (or a squadmate), so meaning in most cases, you’re probably not a noob and you still have some inkling on what you’re doing. But in this system, you can have Billy Bob Joe in his M3A1 fight a T-72A when his best tank ever in any line up is 2.3 or so.

Combined with all this, this system doesn’t take much to break down. So you have the players who choose no spread, or little spread. Meanwhile, you have the players with .7 or 1.0 spread. Because the matchmaker cannot uptier the ones who choose no spread, the no spreads are at the top of the matchmaker in every single game. Which then they have no choice to always uptier the .7 and 1.0+ spread players to them, because they can be uptiered, and the others cannot at all. So players who set to say a 0.7 spread in their tiger are doomed to face T-44s 90% of matches or so. At some point, those players get tired of it, and they set their spread to 0.3 or 0.0. Now, you got even more players with no spread, so the players who remain at .7 or 1.0 get uptiered even more and more, since the game has no choice since the no-spreads cannot be uptiered. Which having almost every game an uptier, the even less .7 or 1.0 spreads then set their spread to 0.0 or 0.3, causing even more no-spread players, meaning the even fewer 0.7 and 1.0 players are uptiered every single battle, causing them to get tired of it, and so on. Until at some point, 90-95% of the playerbase then to not be literally uptiered every single battle must have a 0.0 or 0.3 spread. Then, the game just dissolves to the no-spread scenario – and que times are horrendous, taking many, many, many minutes to find a battle, new players are bored of the que times at lower tiers (which by the way, a 0.3 or 0.7 system lowers que times at lower tiers, and newer players have lower attention spans? Hurting the growth of the game), which less and less players are wanting to join, and it is just a mess.

Essentially, every single case, 0.7, 0.3, 0.0, or dynamic BR spreads, results in much, much more chaos than BR decompression. BR Decompression does not affect early game, has all the benefits of the different spreads, benefits the previously mentioned systems cannot even do, and has a very controllable change to the matchmaker at only a select range.


Separation of World War II vehicles from Post War

Seems strait forward enough, but it has it’s issues.

>Maus and IS-4 would dominate everything.

>PT-76, AMX-13, BTR-152A, R3, and more, where would they go?

>Does nothing to address BR compression between different WW2 era tanks and cold war on cold war tanks (example: M4A3E2 (76) W vs Jagdtiger, Leopard 1A0 vs T-55AM-1).

>What defines WW2?

It’s not really a BR change as it is a statement. You separate WW2 and Cold War. Ok, what else? There isn’t much change here, other than causing confusion on what fights what.


Year based Matchmaker

I think this would be cool… in Simulator Battles.

But, in Arcade and Realistic, it has it’s issues. First of all, Chi-Has vs M4A1s, or Königstigers vs T-34 obr. 1942s is an issue. In fact Tiger II (H)s vs T-34-85s is kind of an issue, as the T-34 has the penetration of the Panzer IV and has 45mm of RHA, while the Tiger II can penetrate it at 3km+ and is immune frontally except at point blank with APCR. It has plenty of issues, I think some balances can be done to make it fun if it was done, in say, a Simulator Battle Enduring Confrontations style event or something, but in the setup of Random Battles, it isn’t that viable in reality.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 11:31am
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:50pm 
BR Decompression

I don’t know if everyone would agree on what top BR should the game be decompressed to or not. However, whether this suggestion is the preferred or not, I believe BR decompression would be the best balancing factor for the game Rank III-VI. The ultimate point is some form of decompression I believe is better than none, whether you think it should be only done to 11.0 or 12.0 say, or the extreme side I often here is a full 20.0 BRs (like the old tier system).

However, I constantly say “BR Decompression could fix this”, as I do believe every rank 3-6 balance issue can be at least addressed if not fixed by BR decompression. So, this is an attempt in the “how” aspect.


I would like expressed disagreements with the battle ratings, I am for sure it’s not perfect. I want to improve this, especially posting on the official forums. Suggestions regarding vehicles listed as “not enough information” would be accepted. This usually means I do not have enough information, experience (in or fighting it), or more with the vehicle. As example: the T114 is listed under this, because I neither have it, nor fight it enough to form a personal opinion on it, as well as, know enough about the vehicle to estimate its location. As mentioned earlier, Italy has been skipped due to it being new, and work on this suggestion started before Italian ground vehicles were even announced. I do hope to include it as well, as some things I have heard and seen about Italy does to sound to be BR compression issues (Example: M26A1 being slightly better than the M26, but being undoubtedly inferior at 6.7).


To place all picture parts of the suggestion in the same location, here are the links to the different nations again:

General Guideline[gyazo.com]

United States[gyazo.com]

Germany[gyazo.com]

United Socialist Soviet Republic[gyazo.com]

United Kingdom[gyazo.com]

Japan[gyazo.com]

Italy[gyazo.com]

France[gyazo.com]

Helicopters[gyazo.com]

Jet Aircraft General Guideline[gyazo.com]

United States Jet Aircraft[gyazo.com]

German Jet Aircraft[gyazo.com]

USSR Jet Aircraft[gyazo.com]

British Jet Aircraft[gyazo.com]

Japanese Jet Aircraft[gyazo.com]

Italian Jet Aircraft[gyazo.com]

French Jet Aircraft[gyazo.com]


I would also like to thank NAF-5th.Legion-Waffen.Div for the introduction to Gyazo, which my previous system for linking pictures about the suggestion resulted in the picture being so blurry, that the numbers and names were barely readable, making the suggestion void due to unreadability.


NOTE: As I have mentioned, this is a draft.



Easier to see Pictures

I have removed this section, Gyazo has a zoom function and it should be enough for most people to read all but the finest of print. This part takes literally hours to update, I do not find it necessary enough to update.

However I am considering changing and reworking the ‘format’, to a more compact view that can allow bigger, easier to read text.
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 2:06pm
kamikazi21358 May 8, 2019 @ 8:50pm 
UPDATES

Update 18-7-2019:

Added Leclerc (>13.0)
Added C1 Ariete (>13.0)
Added F-86K (10.0 or 10.3)
Added Type 16 (11.7 or 12.0)
Added Hunter F.6 to Aircraft Current (11.0)
Added French Helicopters (Not Enough Information)
Added AH-1S (Not Enough Information)
Edited Hunter F.6 (11.3)
Edited Hunter F.2 (10.3)
Edited Hunter F.4 (10.7)
Edited Hunter F.5 (11.0)
Edited Gloster Javelin (9.7 or 10.0)
Edited T-64B obr. 1984 (12.3)
Edited Tiger II (P) (7.0)
Edited T32 (8.3)
Edited T32E1 (8.7)
Edited FlaKpanzer V Coelian (SPAAG)
Edited Twin 40mm SPG M42 Duster (SPAAG)
Edited M42 Duster SDF (SPAAG)
Edited T95 GMC (8.3)
Edited ISU-152 (5.7)
Edited ISU-152S (6.0)
Edited T-10M (9.7 or 10.0)
Edited Sho't Kal Dalet (10.3 or 10.7)
Edited AMX-40 (12.3)
Edited AMX-13 (6.3)
Edited Heavy Tank No.6 (6.0)
Edited Centurion Mk.1 (6.0 or 6.3)
Edited SU-85 (4.3 or 4.7)
Edited Sho't Kal Dalet (10.0)
Edited Chi-To (4.3)
Edited Chi-To Late (4.7)
Edited T28 SHT (7.7)
Edited AMX-13 (SS.11) (7.0)
Edited M1A1 (13.3)
Edited Leopard 2A5 (14.0)
Edited T-80U (13.7)
Edited Challenger 2 (13.3)
Edited "More Accurate" Type 90 (13.7)
Edited C1 Ariete (13.7)
Edited Leclerc C1 (13.7)
Edited 10.0 on "General Guidline" (12.7-14.0)
Made two Javelins in graph (current performance and realistic performance)
Moved XM-1 to Rank "VI+"
Moved T-55AM-1 to Rank "VI+"
Moved Sho't Kal Dalet to Rank "VI+"
Fixed typo saying Rank VI Jets was Rank VII
General text edits
Added an entirely new section, listing potential future modern tanks and how they fit into the system.



Update 19-7-2019:

Fixed the colour-coded General Guideline and explanations were wrong
Made a new General Guideline for tanks[gyazo.com], where it is easier to read hopefully
Last edited by kamikazi21358; Jul 19, 2019 @ 2:09pm
kamikazi21358 May 9, 2019 @ 10:30am 
Though I am hoping for feedback to improve anything I missed, before taking it to the official forums.

There are pictures!
that is one massive read mate, i hope for the sake of all your hard work that the devs read it.
God bless you man for putting so much effort in
Demonic Cookie (Banned) May 9, 2019 @ 1:47pm 
Wow. Yeah hats off for effort. However, I am sorry to say this but... Gaijin doesn't give a flying ♥♥♥♥. They only care about ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ out more premium vehicles and pay to unlock events with cancerous prices on the marketplace that Gaijin refuses to regulate because they love it when people spend more on a single vehicle than it would cost them to go to disneyland ♥♥♥♥ing paris, then disneyland florida, then disneyland califonia, then to Gaijin's head office to suck off the executives.

Also, how did you fit so much into a single thread title and the posts? Steam won't let me post anywhere near as much text.
kamikazi21358 May 9, 2019 @ 2:19pm 
Originally posted by Demonic Cookie:
Wow. Yeah hats off for effort. However, I am sorry to say this but... Gaijin doesn't give a flying ♥♥♥♥. They only care about ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ out more premium vehicles and pay to unlock events with cancerous prices on the marketplace that Gaijin refuses to regulate because they love it when people spend more on a single vehicle than it would cost them to go to disneyland ♥♥♥♥ing paris, then disneyland florida, then disneyland califonia, then to Gaijin's head office to suck off the executives.
Probably not. But better than just not putting the obvious, the existence of BR compession, out there.

It also is just as much for the players too. Maybe numbers can convince them to even do just a little decompression.

Originally posted by Demonic Cookie:
Also, how did you fit so much into a single thread title and the posts? Steam won't let me post anywhere near as much text.
8,000 characters is the limit, spaces don’t count. This was made on a document, split into sections (none exceeding 8,000 characters), before posting.

Originally posted by NAF-5th.Legion-Waffen.Div:
that is one massive read mate, i hope for the sake of all your hard work that the devs read it.
One can hope, I hope to have this up and get feedback/criticisms, update and improve it (like the previous drafts I posted), then perhaps take it to the WT forums and then now I have something to link when I spam “BR decompression would fix this.”
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Date Posted: May 8, 2019 @ 8:48pm
Posts: 30