Why does the Wirbelwind exist?

[Hellhound]

Seriously, it is a 3.7 and can front pen most tanks at that BR. "Well just shoot it first, use MGs.' MGs don't pen the armor. Also it's kind of hard to shoot it, when it shoots 4 guns at 1920 rounds a minute into my gun killing my commander and gunner. I just watched someone get 10 kills with it, in the matter of 10 minutes for f-u-c-ksake. It is broken and needs to be balanced!

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

When Hullbreak was added it was to combat ultra-light vehicles not only surviving shots but taking absolutely no damage. The classification initially was any tank below an armor threshold which I think was around 20-30mm, as far as I'm aware that hasn't changed. The Wirbel has SPAA spawn costs because it's an SPAA it can't be hullbroken because the chassis used is that of a medium tank. You propose that the Wirbel, an SPAA, not only cost more to spawn in but also be Hullbreakable by any damaging shot despite it not fitting the original, albeit awful, mechanic? And not because you've just had bad experiences involving Wirbelwinds but because you genuinely believe that the Wirbelwind is just too powerful being able to kill certain medium tanks within ~200m range.

Hullbreak should have never been a feature, Gaijin should have just bided their time as they do with every real issue and released something that was actually functional.

You're right it isn't invincible, in fact in most situations it's just as easy if not easier to destroy than medium tanks at its tier. I also agree that Gaijin should fix the issues they have on hand but the Wirbel is still not as big an issue as you seem to think it is. In close proximity the Wirbel does generally perform better than SPAA of other nations but much like other nation's SPAA they are still vulnerable and they are still only supplemental.

I too would enjoy consistency, at least in terms of ballistics and damage models. Although I don't believe the correct method of obtaining consistency or balance is to push every vehicle I personally feel performs well into higher tiers.

I am also curious to know how many matches you've played with the Wirbelwind and how pivotal your role has been. I'm an "average skill" player and my ratios with the Wirbelwind are fairly far surpassed by nearly every tank I've used.

I too, would prefer that Hullbreak not exist at all, but in a situation in which it is in game I think it should equally be applied. I'm very much of the opinion that if a vehicle is over performing for its BR it should go up, if its under performing it should go down, I assume that's the point of the BR system anyway is to put vehicles that are approximately equal to eachother fighting eachother.

As for my performance in the Wirbelwind, It is my second most played SPAAG, out of SPAAGs with more than 10 matches it is my fifth place spaag for winrate behind the Sd. KFz. 6/2, Ostwind, Flakpanzer I, and BTR-152A. The Wirbelwind has the third highest KD out of my SPAAGs with over 10 matches, behind the Flakpanzer 1, and the Ostwind, though my stats with the Ostwind are mostly pre ballistics changes.

If the person on thunderskill by the same name as you have here is you, then it shows that your most played vehicle is the Wirbelwind and that you get an average of 2.6 plane kills and 2 ground kills in it per death... which could lead someone to believe that you might just be someone who is against the Wirbel being nerfed since it is your main vehicle and you do exceptionally well in it. Especially with it even having a better KD (4.6 combining the kill types even though air kills are worth more) than every German medium tank you play aside from your PZ III F and only by 0.2 points. Also better than every American medium you play but the M4A2, better than every Russian medium you play put the T-34 1942, better than every italian medium aside from the M13/40 (III), better than every french medium you play but the SA50, better than every single medium you play in the brit line, and you play no japanese mediums to compare to.

Your own stats are fitting in rather well to my argument here considering only 5 medium tanks out of every medium tank you play can manage to get a higher KD than your Wirbelwind.

So medium tank spawn cost for it when?

[Sobolewski]

Originally posted by Dakota:

I too, would prefer that Hullbreak not exist at all, but in a situation in which it is in game I think it should equally be applied. I'm very much of the opinion that if a vehicle is over performing for its BR it should go up, if its under performing it should go down, I assume that's the point of the BR system anyway is to put vehicles that are approximately equal to eachother fighting eachother.

As for my performance in the Wirbelwind, It is my second most played SPAAG, out of SPAAGs with more than 10 matches it is my fifth place spaag for winrate behind the Sd. KFz. 6/2, Ostwind, Flakpanzer I, and BTR-152A. The Wirbelwind has the third highest KD out of my SPAAGs with over 10 matches, behind the Flakpanzer 1, and the Ostwind, though my stats with the Ostwind are mostly pre ballistics changes.

If the person on thunderskill by the same name as you have here is you, then it shows that your most played vehicle is the Wirbelwind and that you get an average of 2.6 plane kills and 2 ground kills in it per death... which could lead someone to believe that you might just be someone who is against the Wirbel being nerfed since it is your main vehicle and you do exceptionally well in it. Especially with it even having a better KD (4.6 combining the kill types even though air kills are worth more) than every German medium tank you play aside from your PZ III F and only by 0.2 points. Also better than every American medium you play but the M4A2, better than every Russian medium you play put the T-34 1942, better than every italian medium aside from the M13/40 (III), better than every french medium you play but the SA50, better than every single medium you play in the brit line, and you play no japanese mediums to compare to.

Your own stats are fitting in rather well to my argument here considering only 5 medium tanks out of every medium tank you play can manage to get a higher KD than your Wirbelwind.

So medium tank spawn cost for it when?

OOF

[The Wiggly Armed Man]

Originally posted by Dakota:

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

When Hullbreak was added it was to combat ultra-light vehicles not only surviving shots but taking absolutely no damage. The classification initially was any tank below an armor threshold which I think was around 20-30mm, as far as I'm aware that hasn't changed. The Wirbel has SPAA spawn costs because it's an SPAA it can't be hullbroken because the chassis used is that of a medium tank. You propose that the Wirbel, an SPAA, not only cost more to spawn in but also be Hullbreakable by any damaging shot despite it not fitting the original, albeit awful, mechanic? And not because you've just had bad experiences involving Wirbelwinds but because you genuinely believe that the Wirbelwind is just too powerful being able to kill certain medium tanks within ~200m range.

Hullbreak should have never been a feature, Gaijin should have just bided their time as they do with every real issue and released something that was actually functional.

You're right it isn't invincible, in fact in most situations it's just as easy if not easier to destroy than medium tanks at its tier. I also agree that Gaijin should fix the issues they have on hand but the Wirbel is still not as big an issue as you seem to think it is. In close proximity the Wirbel does generally perform better than SPAA of other nations but much like other nation's SPAA they are still vulnerable and they are still only supplemental.

I too would enjoy consistency, at least in terms of ballistics and damage models. Although I don't believe the correct method of obtaining consistency or balance is to push every vehicle I personally feel performs well into higher tiers.

I am also curious to know how many matches you've played with the Wirbelwind and how pivotal your role has been. I'm an "average skill" player and my ratios with the Wirbelwind are fairly far surpassed by nearly every tank I've used.

I too, would prefer that Hullbreak not exist at all, but in a situation in which it is in game I think it should equally be applied. I'm very much of the opinion that if a vehicle is over performing for its BR it should go up, if its under performing it should go down, I assume that's the point of the BR system anyway is to put vehicles that are approximately equal to eachother fighting eachother.

As for my performance in the Wirbelwind, It is my second most played SPAAG, out of SPAAGs with more than 10 matches it is my fifth place spaag for winrate behind the Sd. KFz. 6/2, Ostwind, Flakpanzer I, and BTR-152A. The Wirbelwind has the third highest KD out of my SPAAGs with over 10 matches, behind the Flakpanzer 1, and the Ostwind, though my stats with the Ostwind are mostly pre ballistics changes.

If the person on thunderskill by the same name as you have here is you, then it shows that your most played vehicle is the Wirbelwind and that you get an average of 2.6 plane kills and 2 ground kills in it per death... which could lead someone to believe that you might just be someone who is against the Wirbel being nerfed since it is your main vehicle and you do exceptionally well in it. Especially with it even having a better KD (4.6 combining the kill types even though air kills are worth more) than every German medium tank you play aside from your PZ III F and only by 0.2 points. Also better than every American medium you play but the M4A2, better than every Russian medium you play put the T-34 1942, better than every italian medium aside from the M13/40 (III), better than every french medium you play but the SA50, better than every single medium you play in the brit line, and you play no japanese mediums to compare to.

Your own stats are fitting in rather well to my argument here considering only 5 medium tanks out of every medium tank you play can manage to get a higher KD than your Wirbelwind.

So medium tank spawn cost for it when?

Medium cost for it never, the right solution would just be to bump its BR if it's that much of an issue. At the end of a day it's a subpar tank destroyer with guns that can only penetrate 64 mm of armour. It's devastating at close range and when it penetrates the side, yes, and it is a menace against light vehicles though that isn't exactly unique to it but it performs horribly at range

[Pacipoodillie]

Originally posted by Dakota:

If the person on thunderskill by the same name as you have here is you, then it shows that your most played vehicle is the Wirbelwind and that you get an average of 2.6 plane kills and 2 ground kills in it per death... which could lead someone to believe that you might just be someone who is against the Wirbel being nerfed since it is your main vehicle and you do exceptionally well in it. Especially with it even having a better KD (4.6 combining the kill types even though air kills are worth more) than every German medium tank you play aside from your PZ III F and only by 0.2 points. Also better than every American medium you play but the M4A2, better than every Russian medium you play put the T-34 1942, better than every italian medium aside from the M13/40 (III), better than every french medium you play but the SA50, better than every single medium you play in the brit line, and you play no japanese mediums to compare to.

Your own stats are fitting in rather well to my argument here considering only 5 medium tanks out of every medium tank you play can manage to get a higher KD than your Wirbelwind.

So medium tank spawn cost for it when?

I don't know if Thunderskill shows my WT profile, it must as the ratios are similar in my Player Card in-game. As for the KDR, that alone isn't the best metric for determining an over-performing vehicle either.

In 862 matches played in the Wirbel I've accrued 933 ground kills. That's barely scraping an average of one ground kill a match, nothing at all worth noting. The Panzer 3 F I've played a total of 15 matches in with 29 ground kills, the Panzer 4 F2 494 battles for 947, the Panzer 4 G 323 for 825. In the end my performance with these vehicles isn't everyone's performance in said vehicles and having played so many matches with the Wirbelwind I can attest with certainty that it is not the Überpanzer.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

I don't know if Thunderskill shows my WT profile, it must as the ratios are similar in my Player Card in-game. As for the KDR, that alone isn't the best metric for determining an over-performing vehicle either.

In 862 matches played in the Wirbel I've accrued 933 ground kills. That's barely scraping an average of one ground kill a match, nothing at all worth noting. The Panzer 3 F I've played a total of 15 matches in with 29 ground kills, the Panzer 4 F2 494 battles for 947, the Panzer 4 G 323 for 825. In the end my performance with these vehicles isn't everyone's performance in said vehicles and having played so many matches with the Wirbelwind I can attest with certainty that it is not Überpanzer.

You're leaving out air kills in your wirbel, which are more important than ground kills since aircraft cost more to spawn in so taking one of those out makes an enemy even less likely to spawn back in.

Your total kills per battle average with the Wirbel is 2.5, your PZ III F has 1.9, your PZ IV F2 has 1.9, and your PZ 4 G has 2.6, the only vehicle you named there that actually is doing better than your Wirbel and not even truely due to the spawn costs it takes from the enemy per match difference, which is what really matters rather than purely kills.

[The Wiggly Armed Man]

Originally posted by Dakota:

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

I don't know if Thunderskill shows my WT profile, it must as the ratios are similar in my Player Card in-game. As for the KDR, that alone isn't the best metric for determining an over-performing vehicle either.

In 862 matches played in the Wirbel I've accrued 933 ground kills. That's barely scraping an average of one ground kill a match, nothing at all worth noting. The Panzer 3 F I've played a total of 15 matches in with 29 ground kills, the Panzer 4 F2 494 battles for 947, the Panzer 4 G 323 for 825. In the end my performance with these vehicles isn't everyone's performance in said vehicles and having played so many matches with the Wirbelwind I can attest with certainty that it is not Überpanzer.

You're leaving out air kills in your wirbel, which are more important than ground kills since aircraft cost more to spawn in so taking one of those out makes an enemy even less likely to spawn back in.

Your total kills per battle average with the Wirbel is 2.5, your PZ III F has 1.9, your PZ IV F2 has 1.9, and your PZ 4 G has 2.6, the only vehicle you named there that actually is doing better than your Wirbel and not even truely due to the spawn costs it takes from the enemy per match difference, which is what really matters rather than purely kills.

It should be noted that Thunderskill isn't entirely accurate and, unless the player has chosen to update the stats themselves recently, they are extremely inaccurate.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by The Wiggly Armed Man:

Originally posted by Dakota:

You're leaving out air kills in your wirbel, which are more important than ground kills since aircraft cost more to spawn in so taking one of those out makes an enemy even less likely to spawn back in.

Your total kills per battle average with the Wirbel is 2.5, your PZ III F has 1.9, your PZ IV F2 has 1.9, and your PZ 4 G has 2.6, the only vehicle you named there that actually is doing better than your Wirbel and not even truely due to the spawn costs it takes from the enemy per match difference, which is what really matters rather than purely kills.

It should be noted that Thunderskill isn't entirely accurate and, unless the player has chosen to update the stats themselves recently, they are extremely inaccurate.

Incorrect, anyone can update your stats any time. There is an update statistics button that can be used once per 24 hours, so at most his stats will only be missing the last 24 hours.

[Pacipoodillie]

Originally posted by Dakota:

You're leaving out air kills in your wirbel, which are more important than ground kills since aircraft cost more to spawn in so taking one of those out makes an enemy even less likely to spawn back in.

Your total kills per battle average with the Wirbel is 2.5, your PZ III F has 1.9, your PZ IV F2 has 1.9, and your PZ 4 G has 2.6, the only vehicle you named there that actually is doing better than your Wirbel and not even truely due to the spawn costs it takes from the enemy per match difference, which is what really matters rather than purely kills.

With new spawn costs the marginally more expensive plane costs are immediately offset once a plane gets a kill or an assist on any target in GB. It would be true they'd be worse off if it were the case that they spawned into a plane and did nothing before being shot down but that's hardly ever the case.

If you feel my stats prove that it's performing beyond what it should then perhaps you should play more matches with it and see for yourself.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

Originally posted by Dakota:

You're leaving out air kills in your wirbel, which are more important than ground kills since aircraft cost more to spawn in so taking one of those out makes an enemy even less likely to spawn back in.

Your total kills per battle average with the Wirbel is 2.5, your PZ III F has 1.9, your PZ IV F2 has 1.9, and your PZ 4 G has 2.6, the only vehicle you named there that actually is doing better than your Wirbel and not even truely due to the spawn costs it takes from the enemy per match difference, which is what really matters rather than purely kills.

With new spawn costs the marginally more expensive plane costs are immediately offset once a plane gets a kill or an assist on any target in GB. It would be true they'd be worse off if it were the case that they spawned into a plane and did nothing before being shot down but that's hardly ever the case.

If you feel my stats prove that it's performing beyond what it should then perhaps you should play more matches with it and see for yourself.

I already stated how its my second most played SPAAG. I've seen enough to know that its as good as a medium tank, both your stats and my stats show it. Even global stats show its KD is on par with a Panther D.

If you truly believe that it isn't, against your own experiences in it, then I'm not sure either of us will change eachother's minds.

[sneakybass]

Originally posted by Narf:

Every few weeks someone whose weak ego cannot handle it has to whine about SPAAs being even the tiniest threat to some tanks.

The Wirbelwind has barely more than 60mm of pen, is open-topped, has a slit in the tiny bit of turret armour it has that allows you to kill the gunner with even the smallest machine guns in the game and still you gotta complain. Pathetic. Probably part of the "every vehicle but mine is op" crowd.

I play it and I've played against it with every nation except France. The Wirbelwind is fine where it is.

60 mm of buff+ Gaijins spin....

[Pacipoodillie]

Originally posted by Dakota:

I already stated how its my second most played SPAAG. I've seen enough to know that its as good as a medium tank, both your stats and my stats show it. Even global stats show its KD is on par with a Panther D.

If you truly believe that it isn't, against your own experiences in it, then I'm not sure either of us will change eachother's minds.

~60 matches for ~50 combined kills doesn't seem to match the numbers I see or personally have.

According to the site you referenced over the past month in the nearly 14,000 matches the "frags per battle" is less than 1 (0.87) whereas with the Panther D with under a quarter played matches at 3,300 the "frags per battle" is 1.35

How does this make it on par with the Panther?

[Pacipoodillie]

I suppose since there are multiple available modes for Ground and Air Battles it would be a good idea to specify which. I can see that in Arcade it has a much higher average ratio, though that's likely due to both the lead indicator being present for aircraft and the real-time PA.

I pretty much exclusively play Realistic Battles, so I personally wouldn't know whether a vehicle over performs in AB. That being said in AB it most likely has an advantage over other SPAA.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

Originally posted by Dakota:

I already stated how its my second most played SPAAG. I've seen enough to know that its as good as a medium tank, both your stats and my stats show it. Even global stats show its KD is on par with a Panther D.

If you truly believe that it isn't, against your own experiences in it, then I'm not sure either of us will change eachother's minds.

~60 matches for ~50 combined kills doesn't seem to match the numbers I see or personally have.

According to the site you referenced over the past month in the nearly 14,000 matches the "frags per battle" is less than 1 (0.87) whereas with the Panther D with under a quarter played matches at 3,300 the "frags per battle" is 1.35

How does this make it on par with the Panther?

I specifically said KD, not kills per battle.That's what measures the efficiency of a vehicle, its ability to take spawnpoints from the enemy without dying and thus giving them up, Kills per battle only measures the speed at which it does this.

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

I suppose since there are multiple available modes for Ground and Air Battles it would be a good idea to specify which. I can see that in Arcade it has a much higher average ratio, though that's likely due to both the lead indicator being present for aircraft and the real-time PA.

I pretty much exclusively play Realistic Battles, so I personally wouldn't know whether a vehicle over performs in AB. That being said in AB it most likely has an advantage over other SPAA.

I've been talking about RB this whole time, what with me throwing around spawncosts and all, a feature not present in AB at all, though if you have no matches there I can see how you wouldn't know.

[Pacipoodillie]

Originally posted by Dakota:

I specifically said KD, not kills per battle.That's what measures the efficiency of a vehicle, its ability to take spawnpoints from the enemy without dying and thus giving them up, Kills per battle only measures the speed at which it does this.

Kills per battle would be the better ratio for determining a tank/player's efficiency as it shows whether a tank/player is consistent.

[Newtz]

If using 50.s doesnt pen the thing youre REALLY far away and should use the main gun