Insurgency

Insurgency

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Hoak Feb 9, 2014 @ 10:06am
Correct Weapon Handling & Canting
I posted about this on the NWI forums over a year ago, and got a favorable response but thought it should be revisited here as it seems NWI are in a better position to address issues like this and still has the interest in doing so.

Summarily, A canting camera and/or weapon is technically, metrically wrong in terms of proper weapon handling and perspective -- the world does not 'tilt' if we cant our body, head, or rifle; separately or in unison.

As well, canting an aimed firearm from any fire position is improper weapon handling, that is rigorously repudiated and corrected in virtually all firearms training -- military and civilian.

Realistic, correct and damped (no infinite lean speed) lateral camera displacement in peek, lean or fire from cover with correct un-canted weapon handling gives the virtual Operator improved proprioceptive and virtual kinesthetic cues as to how well covered he is (or isn't) when firing from a position of cover with a cover stance.

Canting a weapon also has a radical effect on accuracy, which is why it's repudiated in all firearms training, an article explaining this can be found here[www.accurateshooter.com]

You can also visit the ArmA 3 forums where this topic was discussed and coroberated by numerous other active and retired veterans here[forums.bistudio.com], anaylized, voted on, and vetted in their issue tracker here[feedback.arma3.com].

The third person lean animations in Insurgency are quite good (though a little off balance), and are some of the best in terms of objective realism.
Last edited by Hoak; Feb 9, 2014 @ 10:49am
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Showing 1-15 of 54 comments
Parker Feb 9, 2014 @ 3:37pm 
I made a thread about this very issue on the original forums! I think changing this would go a long way for improving gameplay and increasing realism. +1
TangoVulture Feb 9, 2014 @ 4:10pm 
If the game allowed us to "cant" the weapon while lying down, and shooting under a vehicle, it would be very useful since that's already a tactical practice taught at some military and LEO classes. At relatively close ranges "canting" only has theoretical disadvantages. In practice it works.
-=312th=-Jihad (Banned) Feb 9, 2014 @ 4:10pm 
Right now I'd settle for proper reloading animations.
Dr.Wholian? Feb 9, 2014 @ 9:29pm 
Definitely agree that this should be fixed. It's one of those details, like weapon bob caused by movement, which has gone long enough without being addressed.
WHITESNAKE Feb 9, 2014 @ 11:25pm 
+
Hoak Aug 5, 2014 @ 7:43pm 
As small arms are the main instrumentality of Insurgency, this is one glaring eye sore to functional realism. Even more surprising is that games like COD, and the latest iteration of MOH actually got this right, but for the most part serious tactical realism seems stuck in 'budget mode' with respect to this one feature, that is all the more critical in a game were tactical maneuver fire from cover is so central to the game...
TARS Aug 6, 2014 @ 5:24pm 
Nice to see they are finally starting to correct weapon collision effects, even if it isnt perfect yet.

Now we just need weapon bob, no auto zoom, separate zoom key (not binded to sprint), updated reloading and sprinting weapon animations (there's a custom UMP and ACR animations in the workshop, so something like that for all weapons). Among a few other weapon and class issues and we're sorted xD
TARS Aug 6, 2014 @ 5:25pm 
Oh and +1 to the OP
this OP is a boss nuff said.
Hoak Aug 8, 2014 @ 9:40pm 
Thanks for noticing the thread [SOR] XxZIOIMIBIExX ®™... I hope that NWI will similarly notice Fans like you that are actually making an effort, drilling through these forums (this had to be dozens of pages deep), clearly care about the game, and about realism features that are not just superficial aesthetic realism.

Some of the jargon used in the OP like 'proprioceptive and virtual kinesthetic cues' may be lost on some people, or come accross unnecesserily technical; but this is the correct technical description that doesn't roll into pages of text explaining how this actually works more to-scale in offering a Player/Virtual Operator both more realistic feel and correct knowledge that he's actually firing from a position cover or concealment.

Tested and proven in simulators; would still be nice to see done right in Insurgency...
Last edited by Hoak; Aug 8, 2014 @ 10:07pm
44sunsets Aug 8, 2014 @ 9:42pm 
Excellent post Hoak, I wholeheartedly agree.
Hoak Aug 10, 2014 @ 3:35pm 
I may be mistaken, but I get the impression that smaller Developers are to an increasing extent following the cues of big Developer/Publishers and where quantity of content and novelty supplants quality.

Personally I prefer games that offer more more attention to detail, quality, and form that follows function then incessant marketing diarrhea of new content like magical rewards, psychedelic paint jobs, and poorly executed game modes no one plays.

It seems to me most Tactical Realism Fans don't seem to tire of playing the same map or mission in a game if the game has enough depth of play and space for emergent game-play.

More polish over panacea is the track Insurgency seems to be on for the most part, but I'd like to see it done right with respect to cover/concealed fire position and player perspective -- this is as big a deal as iron sights vs cross hairs only were back in the day of arcade interfaces.

Thanks 44sunsets and again to all posting here that care about how leaning is executed in Insurgency -- and to NWI for making a game good enough where something like this can actually matter...
MattyDienhoff Aug 11, 2014 @ 8:51am 
I had the vague feeling that leaning felt somehow more awkward than it should, but never really thought about why. You make a very good point Hoak, and I agree that this needs attention.
Hoak Dec 25, 2014 @ 2:26pm 
It's nice to see that realistic lateral displacement has been added to the first person perspective; but unfortunately we're still stuck with the rather ghetto rifle canting.

If the Developers are trying to nerf the firing from cover leaned position from being too effective; there are many better and more realistic ways to accomplish this...
Last edited by Hoak; Dec 25, 2014 @ 2:59pm
SwagHauler Dec 25, 2014 @ 5:09pm 
Originally posted by Hoak:
I posted about this on the NWI forums over a year ago, and got a favorable response but thought it should be revisited here as it seems NWI are in a better position to address issues like this and still has the interest in doing so.

Summarily, A canting camera and/or weapon is technically, metrically wrong in terms of proper weapon handling and perspective -- the world does not 'tilt' if we cant our body, head, or rifle; separately or in unison.

As well, canting an aimed firearm from any fire position is improper weapon handling, that is rigorously repudiated and corrected in virtually all firearms training -- military and civilian.

Realistic, correct and damped (no infinite lean speed) lateral camera displacement in peek, lean or fire from cover with correct un-canted weapon handling gives the virtual Operator improved proprioceptive and virtual kinesthetic cues as to how well covered he is (or isn't) when firing from a position of cover with a cover stance.

Canting a weapon also has a radical effect on accuracy, which is why it's repudiated in all firearms training, an article explaining this can be found here[www.accurateshooter.com]

You can also visit the ArmA 3 forums where this topic was discussed and coroberated by numerous other active and retired veterans here[forums.bistudio.com], anaylized, voted on, and vetted in their issue tracker here[feedback.arma3.com].

The third person lean animations in Insurgency are quite good (though a little off balance), and are some of the best in terms of objective realism.
+1. a BIG +1.
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Date Posted: Feb 9, 2014 @ 10:06am
Posts: 54