Age of Empires II: HD Edition

Age of Empires II: HD Edition

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MSPlus2Joe  [developer] Sep 6, 2018 @ 12:27pm
Patch 5.8 (Live) Discussion Thread
Balance Patch 5.8 is now live for all users! Thanks to everyone who participated in the open beta. This is a big balance patch aimed at improving the competitive experience. Please post your comments here.


CHANGES IN PATCH 5.8

  • (Elite) Elephant Archers +2 archer armor vs anti-archer attacks (from -2 to 0).
  • (Elite) Elephant Archers -2 armor vs anti-cavalry archer attacks (from 0 to -2).
  • Eagle Scout training time in Castle Age +3s (from 32s to 35s), same as Eagle Warrior.
  • Incan free llama bonus is no longer tied to the scout; requires Town Center on nomad-style maps.
  • Vietnamese reveal enemy bonus no longer works in full tech tree games.
  • Malay infinite fish trap bonus no longer works in full tech tree games.
  • Khmer no building requirement bonus no longer works in full tech tree games.
  • Teuton team bonus no longer overrides Faith technology in post-imperial age start games.
  • Fixed the issue with siege workshops not receiving extra HP and armor in Imperial Age.
  • Fixed the issue causing the attack sound of Galleons to not play.
  • Fixed the issue with buildings placed on Desert, Cracked terrain not receiving a bonus damage when being attacked.
  • Hunting dogs effect no longer appears in games with starting ages later than Dark.
  • Villagers and towers do a reduced bonus damage vs walls before castle age.
  • Watch Towers, Guard Towers and Keeps cost +25w.
  • Siege Tower collision size changed from 0.50 to 0.45.
  • Coinage moved up to Castle Age, Banking moved up to Imperial age.
  • Couriers cost +200f +400g (from 400f 200g to 600f 600g).
  • Italian fishing ship cost bonus reduced to 15% (from 20%).
  • Khmer receive Arbalest upgrade.
  • Mayan farmers work at closer speed to the farmers of other civilizations.
  • (Elite) Arambai cost changed to 80 wood 60 gold (from 55w 60g).
  • (Elite) Karambit Warrior cost changed to 30f 15g (from 25f 10g).
  • Vietnamese archer HP bonus changed to immediate +20% HP to foot archers. (instead of the staggered effect).
  • (Elite) Rattan Archers +5 HP.
  • Korean faster building fortifications bonus is reduced for Towers(similar to how the Spanish building bonus is reduced for Wonders)
  • Mamelukes receive 5 less damage from Halberdiers.
  • Fire Galleys do 1 damage to fishing ships (reduced from 3)
  • Villagers and towers no longer do reduced damage against walls before Castle Age
  • (Elite) Camel Archers training time +4s (from 21s to 25s)
  • Indians camels no longer receive +1 melee armor bonus
  • Slavic farming bonus is closer to the intended +15% value (multiplier reduced from 1.31 to 1.28)
Last edited by MSPlus2Joe; Sep 6, 2018 @ 12:28pm
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Showing 1-15 of 182 comments
NIK_F_S Sep 6, 2018 @ 12:28pm 
:wololo:
Notakarmagun Sep 6, 2018 @ 12:43pm 
Directly after the patch, the game started to crash randomly without a warning. It just closes. I couldn't identify the in game trigger so far but it happens quite early on, around 10 min.
tommylair69 Sep 6, 2018 @ 12:59pm 
I'm being told I'm trying to access invalid units now???
NIK_F_S Sep 6, 2018 @ 1:12pm 
Originally posted by tommylair69:
I'm being told I'm trying to access invalid units now???
try unchecking all dlcs that you own in your library and then reenabling it, accessing invalid units means that you try to use units from dlcs you dont own, so i guess thats the case here, the game not recognizing your dlcs
Joe Sep 6, 2018 @ 1:49pm 
Originally posted by MSPlus2Joe:
  • Watch Towers, Guard Towers and Keeps cost +25w.
  • Korean faster building fortifications bonus is reduced for Towers(similar to how the Spanish building bonus is reduced for Wonders)

How much is it reduced for Koreans? I really do not think this change is good at all. It will barely nerve tower rush strategies, but makes building towers even less interesting in Castle and Imperial Age, when it is already not a good choice... Moreover, this cost is there from the beginning, and I really think you should explore other ideas to nerf Trushing.

Originally posted by MSPlus2Joe:
  • Coinage moved up to Castle Age, Banking moved up to Imperial age.

Are really springboards tactics so powerful? Was this change necessary? And did you also think of all the mods and cmpaigns it could hurt?

Originally posted by MSPlus2Joe:
  • Couriers cost +200f +400g (from 400f 200g to 600f 600g).
  • (Elite) Arambai cost changed to 80 wood 60 gold (from 55w 60g).
  • (Elite) Karambit Warrior cost changed to 30f 15g (from 25f 10g).
  • Vietnamese archer HP bonus changed to immediate +20% HP to foot archers. (instead of the staggered effect).

This is to me overcorrection... Arambai were correctly nerved, and Karamit Warriors really did not need to be more gold intensive.

Originally posted by MSPlus2Joe:
  • Indians camels no longer receive +1 melee armor bonus

This one is also very weird to me: Indians camels are already widely behind the best paladins. They are less expansive all right, and destructive against cavalry, but as Indian armies are very gold intensive, and Elephant archers not very powerful (though tanky), the Indians really needed to have first line Camels!

Also, you wrote two contradictory informations.

It would also be nice to have some "logical explanations" sometimes, like why you change this or that... E.g. I do not get the Khmer and Burmese getting Parthian Tactics without Thumb Ring. There crtainly is an explanation, I just would enjoy reading it.

Besides all critics I am formulating, thank you for all the bug error corrections.
Sanisk Sep 6, 2018 @ 1:59pm 
Any plans for the "Dark Ages Rush or Early Adopter" achievement yet ?

It'll soon be the only achievement I'm missing, the others being a few remaining campaigns I haven't completed yet.

Kind of an annoying achievement, especially since I've been playing this game since it was first released in 99, can't be an earlier adopter than that.


Anyways... it's good to see a new update.
tommylair69 Sep 6, 2018 @ 2:44pm 
Originally posted by NIK_F_S:
Originally posted by tommylair69:
I'm being told I'm trying to access invalid units now???
try unchecking all dlcs that you own in your library and then reenabling it, accessing invalid units means that you try to use units from dlcs you dont own, so i guess thats the case here, the game not recognizing your dlcs
Did nothing. I was playing last night, worked fine. Today I can't play anything but the original game
TWest Sep 6, 2018 @ 3:37pm 
It's great to see that the update has been pushed. But it would be really nice to have some type of advance warning, instead of suddenly moving the patch out of beta. Unfortunately HD does not preserve any kind of backwards compatibility between different versions. There are various issues such as:
  • Recorded games from 5.7 will not play back correctly in 5.8.
  • Many Mods, AIs, and campaigns are broken by the movement of Coinage and Banking and need to update.
  • Other mods such as WololoKingdoms (being used by the ECL) need to update to support the new changes. Without a warning, ALL aoe2 tournaments, small and large, are disrupted by unexpected updates, as tournament administrators and players need to work out which version of the game they are playing.
It would be extremely helpful to everyone if you could post a simple message, such as "The changes in the Patch 5.8 beta will become official on mm/dd/yyyy," at least a few days before the patch goes live. That way everyone in the community can at the very least be prepared for the updates.

Things are going to be quite chaotic now as players update their game version over the next few days. Many headaches would be avoided if we simply had an advance warning for when the game will break its backwards compatibility.
Last edited by TWest; Sep 6, 2018 @ 3:53pm
"Villagers and towers do a reduced bonus damage vs walls before castle age."
"Villagers and towers no longer do reduced damage against walls before Castle Age"
ok
Originally posted by TWest:
It's great to see that the update has been pushed. But it would be really nice to have some type of advance warning, instead of suddenly moving the patch out of beta. Unfortunately HD does not preserve any kind of backwards compatibility between different versions. There are various issues such as:
  • Recorded games from 5.7 will not play back correctly in 5.8.
  • Many Mods, AIs, and campaigns are broken by the movement of Coinage and Banking and need to update.
  • Other mods such as WololoKingdoms (being used by the ECL) need to update to support the new changes. Without a warning, ALL aoe2 tournaments, small and large, are disrupted by unexpected updates, as tournament administrators and players need to work out which version of the game they are playing.
It would be extremely helpful to everyone if you could post a simple message, such as "The changes in the Patch 5.8 beta will become official on mm/dd/yyyy," at least a few days before the patch goes live. That way everyone in the community can at the very least be prepared for the updates.

Things are going to be quite chaotic now as players update their game version over the next few days. Many headaches would be avoided if we simply had an advance warning for when the game will break its backwards compatibility.


Yep, reality is no one at forgotten empires or skybox really gives a♥♥♥♥♥♥about HD. If they did voobly wouldn't even exist anymore. HD should be BETTER than voobly but it isn't in any way. Pathetic really.
Cicero Sep 6, 2018 @ 5:17pm 
Originally posted by Joe:
How much is it reduced for Koreans?
Korean towers now build ~5% faster.

Originally posted by Patriotnations10 | NRA |:
"Villagers and towers do a reduced bonus damage vs walls before castle age."
"Villagers and towers no longer do reduced damage against walls before Castle Age"
ok

This change was proposed, but then reversed before this patch was released. So no change.
Joe Sep 6, 2018 @ 5:43pm 
Cicero, thank you for your answer.
I am sure a consul of Rome like yourself, apparently deep in the developer's consel, can answer some of my other questions? E.g. why this change for Indian camels, or why these changes in the market technologies? On the Open Beta discussion I posted some other questions...
BURN][NATOR Sep 6, 2018 @ 6:13pm 
Originally posted by Joe:
Originally posted by MSPlus2Joe:
  • Watch Towers, Guard Towers and Keeps cost +25w.
  • Korean faster building fortifications bonus is reduced for Towers(similar to how the Spanish building bonus is reduced for Wonders)
How much is it reduced for Koreans? I really do not think this change is good at all. It will barely nerve tower rush strategies, but makes building towers even less interesting in Castle and Imperial Age, when it is already not a good choice... Moreover, this cost is there from the beginning, and I really think you should explore other ideas to nerf Trushing.
Yeah, I am not trying to find something to complain about here, just looking for the best interests of the game, but you can count me as another person who would like to see the developers pursue another route for nerfing Trushes. I just don't think you'll be satisfied with the +25 Wood solution, to me it almost screams of another cost increase in the near future to try to further hinder early tower building, reason being that certain civs. can still Trush just fine with their wood bonuses (for instance I like the Teutons or the Incas if I want to build a couple of early towers). Do what you want with my earlier suggestion from the Beta discussion, but LOS really does seem to potentially be one of your good options. If you take away some of the element of surprise, like suddenly having a tower firing out of the fog onto your woodline, then that should help a lot. However you would choose to accomplish it, LOS seems like it could be a more subdued but effective approach, after all many civs. already possess extensive LOS bonuses in all shapes and sizes without breaking the game.

Originally posted by Joe:
Originally posted by MSPlus2Joe:
  • Indians camels no longer receive +1 melee armor bonus
This one is also very weird to me: Indians camels are already widely behind the best paladins. They are less expansive all right, and destructive against cavalry, but as Indian armies are very gold intensive, and Elephant archers not very powerful (though tanky), the Indians really needed to have first line Camels!
A thought regarding Indian camels: what if you did +1 pierce armor bonus for Castle Age and then +1 melee armor bonus for the Imperial Age? If that still doesn't strike your fancy, then you could instead give the + 1 melee armor as part of the Imperial Camel upgrade (like the +1 melee armor gained upgrading from Two-Handed Swordsman to Champion). If this is still not enough, then why not just make the upgrade cost for Imperial Camel more, perhaps the same as a Paladin? The steep upgrade cost route has worked well for certain powerful units for years now, for instance the E. Cataphract and the E. War Elephant. This kind of approach may be a good compromise, especially where I see that a good number of people on the related Reddit discussion were understandably not pleased with this particular change. So the Huns have finally met their match, why not?

Originally posted by TWest:
It's great to see that the update has been pushed. But it would be really nice to have some type of advance warning, instead of suddenly moving the patch out of beta. Unfortunately HD does not preserve any kind of backwards compatibility between different versions. There are various issues such as:
  • Recorded games from 5.7 will not play back correctly in 5.8.
  • Many Mods, AIs, and campaigns are broken by the movement of Coinage and Banking and need to update.
  • Other mods such as WololoKingdoms (being used by the ECL) need to update to support the new changes. Without a warning, ALL aoe2 tournaments, small and large, are disrupted by unexpected updates, as tournament administrators and players need to work out which version of the game they are playing.

    It would be extremely helpful to everyone if you could post a simple message, such as "The changes in the Patch 5.8 beta will become official on mm/dd/yyyy," at least a few days before the patch goes live. That way everyone in the community can at the very least be prepared for the updates.

    Things are going to be quite chaotic now as players update their game version over the next few days. Many headaches would be avoided if we simply had an advance warning for when the game will break its backwards compatibility.
Very true. Find that frustrating that I just saved some good recorded games in Patch 5.7 that will suddenly no longer be viewable. And that will no doubt be a big scramble and frustration for the ECL with their next stage this Saturday, seems like TriRem and others may be pulling their hair out to manage the technical support for the tournament, and players may have to spontaneously adjust to these changes even though that is not the balance set they just practiced with.
Backwards compatability = good.
Communication = good.
Last edited by BURN][NATOR; Sep 6, 2018 @ 6:24pm
Cicero Sep 6, 2018 @ 6:45pm 
Originally posted by Joe:
Cicero, thank you for your answer.
I am sure a consul of Rome like yourself, apparently deep in the developer's consel, can answer some of my other questions? E.g. why this change for Indian camels, or why these changes in the market technologies? On the Open Beta discussion I posted some other questions...

Sure :)

In general, balance changes are mostly based on whats been happening in AoE2 tournaments - they also have a group of top players who suggest balance changes.

Almost every AoE2 teamgame tournament applies sling nerfs, that often go much further than these which are now being made official. ECL (a current $60k AoE2 tournament sponsored by Microsoft) moves Coinage to the Imperial age, and removes Banking altogether; it also increases the tribute tax to 40% Despite these nerfs slinging is still sometimes used in this tournament and can prove to be a powerful strategy (but now a more balanced one). An official sling nerf was long overdue, since past tournaments with no sling nerf have just turned into sling every game.

Indians have proven to be incredibly dominant in team games - and are maybe the best pocket civ. They have perhaps the strongest eco bonus in the game allowing them to pull ahead of other civs, then imperial camels perform well against almost anything (halbs aren't really viable in high level team games). Some change was needed - though I'd personally prefer a nerf to their eco bonus, and then a change to only their Imperial camels, since those are what make the civ so powerful.

Arambai are very powerful in skilled hands, especially when combined with mangonels, and the no-food cost meant they could easily be massed whilst making economy. Here are some fun demonstrations of their effectiveness:
Are Arambai Overpowered? Exhibit A
Are Arambai Overpowered? Exhibit B

Regarding towers, the Korean tower rush was pretty broken with the faster building towers so that was correctly (almost) removed. Other changes have long been requested, and the increased cost is a step in the right direction, though many would say its not enough.
Last edited by Cicero; Sep 7, 2018 @ 9:26am
TriRem Sep 6, 2018 @ 6:54pm 
It would be really nice to have each version stored in the beta tab, for backward compatibility <3 not being able to roll back to 5.7 is a bit of a pain.
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