Crossbows/Bows discussion and why being a good host is hard.

[Comand90]

Tl;dr
1. Crossbows were decent, Plainsrider was bad before update. I used Light Crossbow with standard ammo and it was good, Heavy Crossbow with HE. Now they required a buff with more health enemies have... Well the buff is too huge and Light Crossbow can do just as well without skills as R93 with Overkill Aced, Berserker and Spotter AND LIGHT CROSSBOW STILL HAS BETTER CONCEALMENT. I suggest 1000 DMG to LC and I don't know what exactly to HC, bows are harder to use so they might as well have their damage as it is now.
2. People who think they're good and farm achievements with broken meta make me vomit.
3. This is the second dodge where you gimp yourself if you're not using it. CAR-4 was never meta it was just versitile and it was never a problem. Crossbows might have limited range but you can still get people from far away with perfect accuracy unlike eg. concealed Nagant if you master the drop off.
4. Crossbows require some skill to use but they reward it too greatly right now.
5. Light Crossbow has similar fire rate to R93 when you do not account for R93's reload and account for reload of LC so is it balanced 1500 damage with drop off and travel time vs 300 with penetration but huge downtime due to reloads? Even if you buff R93 with skills like Berserker, Silent Killer, OVK Ace or Spotter it doesn't make it worthwhile the SP investment compared to using cheap 0 SP crossbow.
6. Educate players on perk decks: why the least versitile perk deck is the first perk deck on the list? Some people will level it up because they don't care and they think it's quick and easy and then they are worthless to the team if they join harder difficulty. Educate players on the difficulties as well or lock them in some way so eg. you cannot play OD without finishing all vanilla heists on Mayhem or above, you cannot play DW without finishing all vanilla heists on Overkill or above (this wouldn't be very limiting as you can unlock all difficulties by just finishing Mayhem and yet it's gonna be better than having 20h players joining One Down with CTV Hitman and Minigun or Crew Chief in Undercover OD).


First of all I'd like to ask you if you use or don't use the new 1500/4000 damage bows/crossbows and why. Second of all: do you play One Down?
Do you think they're overpowered?

Now I'll voice my opinion. You've made crossbows and bows the ultimate weapons that are clearly overpowered because they do crazy damage without any skills with decent time to reload and fire and really fekin' good concealment. I used to use H. Crossbow with HE and Light Crossbow with standard ammo on old Death WIsh and they were decent due to their concealment. Now we get ultimate damage coupled with concealment and consistent firing rate.

I get people joining my lobbies with Rogue+Crossbows all the time to the point where I have to tell them "no crossbows allowed" so they leave and rethink their life.
In my opinion beating One Down difficulty with Crossbows is a shameful thing to do: if you aren't good enough they gtfo, olrite? Enemy health has been buffed all across the board and the only weapons that had their damage buffed to compensate were crossbows and grenade launchers. I don't use GLs but I can see why this happened: non incendiary GLs never were too good anwyay. Buffing bows and crossbows was hugely needed for a long time but not like this.

We don't need the most concealable weapons to be the best! I think that allowing skills to increase the damage of bows and crossbows would've been much better idea with a less impactful buff to damage and maybe less drop off. Hell, maybe even change silent killer to work on silent weapons and not just silenced? Right now it's hard to play One Down with random people. I think you should make it so you need to unlock One Down & DW where One Down would be unlocked after you reach level 100 without infamy and beat all non DLC heists on Mayhem or above, Death Wish on level 80 without infamy when you beat all non DLC heists on Overkill or above.

One recommendation I also have: educate players more about Perk Decks or move Crew Chief somewhere where it isn't the first perk deck. Crew Chief is a good perk deck but it's worthless on most of the heists. Maybe except for perk description add perk deck description telling the player straight in the face what the perk deck does and when.

What are your opinions? Are you sick getting Crew Chiefs on Watch Dogs or Undercover? Do you like having 4000 damage bows? Do you play with bow and arrow on One Down? Do you play One Down because you want to have a challenge or you want to be achievement completionist, or maybe you just want the One Down mask?
Do you like playing guns on One Down with people in your team using Heavy Crossbow that does more damage than your Thanatos? Do you think new enemies are too bulletspongy? Do you think One Down is too hard?

That's a lot of questions yes? Well I didn't want to sound like a prick so I gave you a lot of options to tell me your side of the story!

[N0xEterniS]

You're so frustrated, it's not even funny.

[hypster]

First of all, bows aren't overpowered. This stigma needs to leave the playerbase as a whole. Snipers need a buff. That's what everyone should be pushing for. This is a co-op game. You're just hurting those that enjoy bows by trying to get them nerfed to the point of only being good in very hard. Shift your focus from harming a part of the community that has fun with these weapons (classy, giving people weapon restrictions by the way) to promoting the needed change to Sniper power. Thanatos used to be the go to for dozers and the damage has remained the same despite many weapons coming out to compete. Yes it is odd that a bow does more damage than a .50 cal. NO, bows should not be nerfed.

As for your difficulty argument, there's a level filter and NGBTO even has infamy filter if you're really looking for experience.

Finally, One Down is supposed to be near impossible. But with the RIGHT TEAM, it can be done. Hence all the people with the OD mask. Turtling and moving cover to cover, not chasing a kill, stunning groups and mowing them down, focusing specials, plenty of ammo and first aid.

This bow thing needs to come to an end. If enough people complain about bows and Overkill goes ok fine and puts them down to 800, you are still left with an underpowered Thanatos. Then OD will really become impossible for you. Change the focus of the argument.

[Comand90]

Publicado originalmente por Nate:

First of all, bows aren't overpowered. This stigma needs to leave the playerbase as a whole. Snipers need a buff. That's what everyone should be pushing for. This is a co-op game. You're just hurting those that enjoy bows by trying to get them nerfed to the point of only being good in very hard. Shift your focus from harming a part of the community that has fun with these weapons (classy, giving people weapon restrictions by the way) to promoting the needed change to Sniper power. Thanatos used to be the go to for dozers and the damage has remained the same despite many weapons coming out to compete. Yes it is odd that a bow does more damage than a .50 cal. NO, bows should not be nerfed.

As for your difficulty argument, there's a level filter and NGBTO even has infamy filter if you're really looking for experience.

Finally, One Down is supposed to be near impossible. But with the RIGHT TEAM, it can be done. Hence all the people with the OD mask. Turtling and moving cover to cover, not chasing a kill, stunning groups and mowing them down, focusing specials, plenty of ammo and first aid.

This bow thing needs to come to an end. If enough people complain about bows and Overkill goes ok fine and puts them down to 800, you are still left with an underpowered Thanatos. Then OD will really become impossible for you. Change the focus of the argument.

Well if they lower the health of the enemies they won't have to buff 90% of the weapons in the game. I'm hurting those who enjoy bows by trying to get them nerfed? The bows were introduced over a year ago and almost nobody used them. Almost nobody liked chivalry DLC and people only used crossbows with HE except for me so if anyone likes the crossbows then it's me.

OD is meant to be near impossible and I don't mind that as long as it isn't more possible by using weapons that do not require any skills. If OVK has buffed other weapons to compensate for new extremely high enemy health and slightly nerfed crossbows it'd be fine but as of right now crossbows with crit are extremely overpowered. Crossbows and bows have great concealment and you don't have to worry about ammo pick ups not giving you enough ammo. Now they also do insane amount of damage, how is that not overpowered? Just because you can still lose OD and it doesn't oneshot everyone in the body on OD doesn't mean it isn't overpowered. It's overpowered due to statistics compared to all other weapons in the game and TTK. If it wasn't extremely good nobody would've used it.

Was Light Crossbow bad when it had 240 damage and it could oneshot Grays in the body on Death Wish: highest difficulty back then? No, it was good because it had like 30 concealment. Lackluster against specials yes but definetely something worth considering. How many crossbow and bow lovers did you see back then? Everyone pretty much only used HE on bows because people thought it's the only viable option for them. Yes, bows and crossbows needed a slight buff (and even more so now if they haven't touched them due to increased enemy health) or some skills that'd buff them but not x6 increased damage.

I agree that light snipers need a buff. They needed it a long time ago because they did the same damage as DMRs (which doesnt mean light snipers were bad but they haven't had anything going for them: I found repeater extremely viable with berserk+overkill ace+spotter however). Now all snipers need some scaling done for OD but the same can be said for all weapons. Then again you go to play Mayhem and you oneshot people in the chest with SMG, waht. The gap between DW and OD in enemy health is too huge to balance the weapons around OD (and the bows are balanced around OD arguably) and you can fix that in many ways or just leave the OD as impossible difficulty which I wouldn't mind.

I use NGBTO sometimes but I want to give people a chance so I don't go hard on my setings. I don't mind noobs joining my lobby all that much if at all, what I dislike is that OVERKILL gives arguabely the 2nd worst vanilla perk deck as default and many people just level that up first due to that fact. Tutorials were a step in the right direction but they don't teach players enough and then people with 20h in game think they can go from doing Very Hards to One Down...

[Comand90]

Publicado originalmente por former XXV-100 DarK AngeL:

You're so frustrated, it's not even funny.

At least I'm not so desperate to place XXV-100 in my nickname to not get kicked.
I sound frustrated and sure I am. Not so much with noobs joining my team because I try to educate people on perk decks etc. when I get the chance and let them try dying in the highest difficulty but with people who think they're good because they play bows on OD. 3000h Deathsquad difficulty? More like buy Chivalry DLC difficulty. I loved Light Crossbow with standard ammo and Heavy Crossbow with HE on old Death Wish and nobody used them now suddenly we have 10000 times more people using standard ammo in crossbows (because only half of a person used it in the past) or using them at all? This looks like a dirty move by OVK to get positive reviews for Chivalry DLC and more people buying it because it was probably the least bought DLC by people.

It simply feels like if someone modded CAR-4 with 1000 ROF and 150 damage into the game with 30 concealment. The only reason people use crossbows now on the highest difficulty is because they're super good for OD and do not require any skills. It's boring and I don't want to beat the highest difficulty with this kind of cheats provided by the developers. If they change other weapons to be on par with crossbows and bows that's gonna be fine but then OD is not gonna be impossible and they've said they wanted it to be pretty much that?

Sidenote: let me be frustrated if I want to, I'm not saying this just because I'm frustrated but because I find it to be true. Assault Rifle can be really good if you go full DPS on One Down but still not quite as handy as a Crossbow with no skills because you can grab more support and survival skills and do similar damage...

[Copy & Cat]

People use crossbows due bad balancing, fix the balancing people will use other stuff

[N0xEterniS]

lol I'm not desperate dude xD I'm usually the host so i'm not affraid of being kicked and why did i put XXV-100 in front? Cuz i was a couple of days ago level XXV-100 :)
I feel ya. I understand the problem, it was just that you wrote too much. I would like em to buff thanatos as it's my fav weapon and they will, for now perhaps as you mentioned, the whole thing is perhaps a marketing trick. Chivalry: MW is atm 90% off... just a coincidence ;D

[Serialkillerwhale]

Publicado originalmente por Nate:

First of all, bows aren't overpowered. This stigma needs to leave the playerbase as a whole. Snipers need a buff. That's what everyone should be pushing for. This is a co-op game. You're just hurting those that enjoy bows by trying to get them nerfed to the point of only being good in very hard. Shift your focus from harming a part of the community that has fun with these weapons (classy, giving people weapon restrictions by the way) to promoting the needed change to Sniper power. Thanatos used to be the go to for dozers and the damage has remained the same despite many weapons coming out to compete. Yes it is odd that a bow does more damage than a .50 cal. NO, bows should not be nerfed.

As for your difficulty argument, there's a level filter and NGBTO even has infamy filter if you're really looking for experience.

Finally, One Down is supposed to be near impossible. But with the RIGHT TEAM, it can be done. Hence all the people with the OD mask. Turtling and moving cover to cover, not chasing a kill, stunning groups and mowing them down, focusing specials, plenty of ammo and first aid.

This bow thing needs to come to an end. If enough people complain about bows and Overkill goes ok fine and puts them down to 800, you are still left with an underpowered Thanatos. Then OD will really become impossible for you. Change the focus of the argument.

There is no stigma. It's simply that they are overpowered. It's a flat-out fact that doing 4000 damage a shot on a weapon with very few ammo problems, if any at all baring gross incompetence is overpowered. You really can't get around it. Normal weapons do 40-200 damage. The Longbow does literally 20x a normal gun's damage. Is that not overpowered?

[Comand90]

Publicado originalmente por former XXV-100 DarK AngeL:

lol I'm not desperate dude xD I'm usually the host so i'm not affraid of being kicked and why did i put XXV-100 in front? Cuz i was a couple of days ago level XXV-100 :)
I feel ya. I understand the problem, it was just that you wrote too much. I would like em to buff thanatos as it's my fav weapon and they will, for now perhaps as you mentioned, the whole thing is perhaps a marketing trick. Chivalry: MW is atm 90% off... just a coincidence ;D

Well now that they've messed with enemy health in so many difficulties and it's so different to so many difficulties we could buff all the weapons for OD but then again they're gonna kill too fast on lower difficulties... Messing with enemy health so much was a huge mistake that'll always result in bulletsponginess in video games or if you balance your game around highest difficulty then lower difficulties are gonna be too easy. I didn't know Chivalry: MW is 90% off, I just thought they want to sell their DLC but maybe this is also the case. Just look at the Steam Reviews man, good thing Valve introduced this "all time" and "new" because it just shows how fishy of a move it was and how people fell for it like idiots.

[Sovereign Star]

Consider bows are "Shoot once, reload, draw the bow, repeat" Not very op in my eyes, because cops would take advantage to gun you down when reloading.

You're likely dead if you miss anyway.

[Serialkillerwhale]

Having multiple hp values can only lead to trouble. Difficulty should be generated with increased specials, better AI, and greater numbers of enemies. Not just ramping up the damn health values.

[Comand90]

Publicado originalmente por Serialkillerwhale:

Publicado originalmente por Nate:

First of all, bows aren't overpowered. This stigma needs to leave the playerbase as a whole. Snipers need a buff. That's what everyone should be pushing for. This is a co-op game. You're just hurting those that enjoy bows by trying to get them nerfed to the point of only being good in very hard. Shift your focus from harming a part of the community that has fun with these weapons (classy, giving people weapon restrictions by the way) to promoting the needed change to Sniper power. Thanatos used to be the go to for dozers and the damage has remained the same despite many weapons coming out to compete. Yes it is odd that a bow does more damage than a .50 cal. NO, bows should not be nerfed.

As for your difficulty argument, there's a level filter and NGBTO even has infamy filter if you're really looking for experience.

Finally, One Down is supposed to be near impossible. But with the RIGHT TEAM, it can be done. Hence all the people with the OD mask. Turtling and moving cover to cover, not chasing a kill, stunning groups and mowing them down, focusing specials, plenty of ammo and first aid.

This bow thing needs to come to an end. If enough people complain about bows and Overkill goes ok fine and puts them down to 800, you are still left with an underpowered Thanatos. Then OD will really become impossible for you. Change the focus of the argument.

There is no stigma. It's simply that they are overpowered. It's a flat-out fact that doing 4000 damage a shot on a weapon with very few ammo problems, if any at all baring gross incompetence is overpowered. You really can't get around it. Normal weapons do 40-200 damage. The Longbow does literally 20x a normal gun's damage. Is that not overpowered?

The best way to describe bows and crossbows as not overpowered: Light Crossbow is a sniper rifle with no penetration, perfect accuracy and some bullet drop off and travel time that does 1500 damage with 30 concealment and basically every shot you shoot you are guaranteed to be able to pick it back up. Labensauger has like 22 concealment or something with ~170 damage and lenghty reload.

[Comand90]

Publicado originalmente por Serialkillerwhale:

Having multiple hp values can only lead to trouble. Difficulty should be generated with increased specials, better AI, and greater numbers of enemies. Not just ramping up the damn health values.

New strategies and tactics in general or new enemies. I have another thread where I've proposed many new abilities for cops and two new specials: Engineer and Pointman (both of them have at least 2 really fresh new abilities).

[L_A_COOKE]

LOL stick your crossbow up your bum and fire please

[Comand90]

Publicado originalmente por Sovereign Star:

Consider bows are "Shoot once, reload, draw the bow, repeat" Not very op in my eyes, because cops would take advantage to gun you down when reloading.

You're likely dead if you miss anyway.

It sounds dumb and bad on paper but consider this: with a sniper rifle like R93 you can fire as fast as Light Crossbow with reloads and when you reload R93 then you end up shooting less shots in the same time as a Light Crossbow would. One bullet in the magazine makes it more consistent because you always have a down time and it's not all that huge: this is a reason why LMGs are painful to use (you shoot for a long time and then you are vulnerable for a long time as well).

Please note I didn't say LMGs are bad because I love my Buzzsaw.

[L_A_COOKE]

Publicado originalmente por Nate:

First of all, bows aren't overpowered. This stigma needs to leave the playerbase as a whole. Snipers need a buff. That's what everyone should be pushing for. This is a co-op game. You're just hurting those that enjoy bows by trying to get them nerfed to the point of only being good in very hard. Shift your focus from harming a part of the community that has fun with these weapons (classy, giving people weapon restrictions by the way) to promoting the needed change to Sniper power. Thanatos used to be the go to for dozers and the damage has remained the same despite many weapons coming out to compete. Yes it is odd that a bow does more damage than a .50 cal. NO, bows should not be nerfed.

As for your difficulty argument, there's a level filter and NGBTO even has infamy filter if you're really looking for experience.

Finally, One Down is supposed to be near impossible. But with the RIGHT TEAM, it can be done. Hence all the people with the OD mask. Turtling and moving cover to cover, not chasing a kill, stunning groups and mowing them down, focusing specials, plenty of ammo and first aid.

This bow thing needs to come to an end. If enough people complain about bows and Overkill goes ok fine and puts them down to 800, you are still left with an underpowered Thanatos. Then OD will really become impossible for you. Change the focus of the argument.

What weapons does you and your team use may i ask !