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dean0null Jan 27, 2016 @ 11:00pm
Colorblind setting
There are panels that are very hard to see what is on them. I wish there was a colorblind option for all puzzles.

Here's an example: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/610604005634668610/1D72B142D5E33D9B08214E1F4C2CCCDC954B8CCE/

There were some in the swamp that I literally couldn't see until I adjusted my monitor quite a bit. They were some of the blocks within a section puzzles.
Last edited by dean0null; Jan 27, 2016 @ 11:04pm
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Showing 1-15 of 21 comments
dean0null Jan 28, 2016 @ 2:49am 
Seriously this is♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥me off.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/609478105730888772/E724F32D8493C176A49C5CEA5EE9E2B5F0F6363B/

I didn't know that any of those light colors were different AT ALL. I STILL can't tell the difference after looking it up in a guide and studying it. What were you thinking? ~8 percent of males are color blind. Fix this crap. I can't believe this♥♥♥♥♥♥ Most puzzle games have different swatches or textures to help out with this sort of stuff. It'd help out if that was used even if it's a temporary fix. I don't want to have to take screenshots and then check the color with an eyedropper tool just to know what's what. If you need guidance, bright colors are the best. Bright red, yellow, any can be seen easily enough, but when it's too stylistic... I can't see the difference and my color blindness isn't even considered all that bad.
Last edited by dean0null; Jan 28, 2016 @ 2:56am
Wok Jan 28, 2016 @ 10:39am 
Dota2 is a very demanding game and has a colorblind mode. It is not hard to propose to the player a different panel of colors when he ticks an option.
au Joy Jan 28, 2016 @ 10:55am 
Probably not practical to account for disabilities during design. I would argue the game is unfair for people with IQ under 75. Should the puzzles be watered down so these people can solve them too? I support designers taking colorblindness and deafness into consideration during design, but not at the expense of actually delivering a complete and polished product to market. I think its unreasonable to expect indie studios to be able to invest time/$$$ into these edge cases.
dean0null Jan 28, 2016 @ 7:10pm 
Except colorblindness fixes are super easy to implement and many developers do because it's so easy. It's also super practical to take it into account because it's much harder to take into consideration later on. It's still super easy, but a bit harder. So, if you don't know about colorblindness, you can disregard your argument until you look it up.
dean0null Jan 30, 2016 @ 4:51am 
I really am interested to know if there will be a fix. I know it's early days and this might not take presedence, but I don't have a strong urge to continue playing when I know that I may not even be able to finish the puzzles. It does bug me that one of the most basic components of user interface wasn't considered during development.

Originally posted by au Joy:
Probably not practical to account for disabilities during design. I would argue the game is unfair for people with IQ under 75. Should the puzzles be watered down so these people can solve them too? I support designers taking colorblindness and deafness into consideration during design, but not at the expense of actually delivering a complete and polished product to market. I think its unreasonable to expect indie studios to be able to invest time/$$$ into these edge cases.

It's great to know that I'm being compared to slow and deaf people simply because the UI designers failed to consider one of their most basic and important jobs, color! 4-8% isn't a fringe case dumbass.
dean0null Jan 30, 2016 @ 1:20pm 
Originally posted by Ntropy:
Originally posted by dean0null:
I really am interested to know if there will be a fix.

I think I can answer you: Definitely NO

I have advanced far (I think) in the game, and there are puzzles that are based in the full RGB spectrum, there is no way to circunvent that with tipical colorblind mode solutions.

As I said before, some games can't be for everybody, the challenge and joy of puzzle solving for one person is going to be the impenetrable wall for another, and in other games would be the other way around.

I understand that for people who has purchased the game from day one without knowing this, and can't enjoy the game to it's full extent, is a nuisance, however, if the developers would had warned beforehand about this, we had lost the surprise of this kind of puzzles.

The game has lots of different kind of puzzles that you can still enjoy, and I'm sure that in no time, there will be lots of user guides oriented just to people with colorblind issues, or hearing problems.

In the meantime, I would like you to recommend another little gem of a game quite similar to this: TOKI TORI 2+: It uses the same principles of hidden puzzles in plain sight, the free roaming exploration of a colurful island, and no hand-holding at all, just you exploring, and seeing how the world react to your interactions and using that to develop solutions.

I'm not sure you know what being colorblind is. I can still see all colors.
Last edited by dean0null; Jan 30, 2016 @ 1:25pm
dean0null Jan 30, 2016 @ 4:57pm 
Originally posted by Ntropy:
Originally posted by dean0null:

If you can see (and recognize) all colors, you should have no problem at all playing the game.

That's the thing. It's when it comes to discrimination that I have the problem. Imagine a filter that partially removes one of the three cones of color vision. For me, colors that are between red and green are affected which is the most common type.

How far into the game are you? How many individual colors would you estimate this game has when it comes to symbols on panels only. Like say colors of squares for example.
Last edited by dean0null; Jan 30, 2016 @ 4:59pm
dean0null Jan 30, 2016 @ 6:51pm 
Since the primary colors are spread out, they're usually discernable. Even then though, the distribution can be changed to make the differences even more apparent very easily by adjusting the outside range of color. Say by making red, green, and blue further away than the three colors that are created by combining them. Also, brightness when considered, makes a huge difference as far as discrimination is concerned. This is all taken into consideration when someone like say Microsoft creates a UI or any company concerned with UI really.

Historically, puzzle games have been spotty when it comes to UI though they seem to be the ones that need it the most. Usually there is enough difference between things other than color in objects, like texture, shape, etc. that make it a nonissue. The thing is, it doesn't take much work to change the color on panels to be easier to tell the difference and it doesn't affect people with normal visions enjoyment of the game. Substance over style is what I always go for, and the same with function over form. This is simply another case of it.

I can understand people wanting to defend a game or developer, but what most people don't realize is how easy a lot of this stuff is to fix. It does take some work, but Jonathan already has the ability to go into god mode and automatically be transported to every puzzle in the game. I know this because he mentioned this when somene asked why some pixels were different in the corner of a screenshot. It was a form of GPS that is only visible with the developer version of the game. So the main thing would probably to go into photoshop and change the tints a little bit and only applying them if a colorblind option is ticked in the settings menu.

Yes, that takes work but it is insignificant in comparison to the seven years of development. In this context, it is a ridiculus oversight in my opinion. The amount of anger with my original post had a bit to do with the fact that the resulting product, seemingly to me, did not take this into account when it would take a minimal effort to fix after the graphics were done. This is an iterative process. I don't expect graphical artists to pander to someone who sees color different than them, but I do expect them to go through and check to make sure their work works for a variety of people.

So, I do find it rather rude when someone likens it to being deaf or slow because it isn't a very hard issue to fix. It isn't a hard issue to fix at all in fact, but developers keep releasing things that make it very hard on colorblind consumers. It's weird that in this industry Call of Duty is probably the best and most innovative when it comes to this thing and the only thing they've had to change is the color of team mates and enemies on radars, and the color of names above players' heads. Remember, this is an optional setting. But if I said something like a FPS needing to make it easier to play for those who are colorblind using this technique, I'd probably be blindsided by similar arguments to those mentioned. It's about as hard as it is for a normal person to format font in a word processor they haven't used as it is for the developer to create an optional fix since the font color has already been set to some variable that is easy to change. Even if it was a graphic, these are often very simple things to change. I could do it in a few minutes in Photoshop. This is still deemed too hard. So we get apologists who often have no idea what they're talking about, and that is very frustrating to me.
Last edited by dean0null; Jan 30, 2016 @ 6:57pm
Auld.Jenkins Jan 30, 2016 @ 6:54pm 
I haven't played very much at all as of yet, but based on the discussion and the example images, I'm going to argue that a colorblind option would be more than reasonable.

This is an interesting conundrum, overall. I understand one hundred percent that, given the choice between keeping your artistic vision intact, or accomodating every single possible disability a player might have, the original vision and game design should absolutely take priority. However, an optional colorblindness setting (if impletemted correctly) can be totally unobtrusive, and would make the game a whole lot less needlessly frustrating for a huge subset of people, which includes me.

This isn't a disability like not having an arm, or being completely deaf. If we were demanding that all sounds in the game be replaced with visual cues, or that the game be somehow playable with only two buttons, then I would understand how it would intrude on the game experience and generally be a waste of effort. However, we are talking about something that is realistically much easier to fix, as well as something that affects to some degree one out of every twelve male players.

Keep in mind that colorblindness does not mean seeing things in black and white like an old-timey cartoon. The vast majority of people who suffer from colorblindness have trouble perceiving only very specific parts of the entire spectrum. As an example, I have to kind of squint my eyes and concentrate very hard in order to differentiate the orange and green here, or the blue and white here. If I were looking at these images totally out of context, I would say that these particular colors were specifically chosen to taunt people with colorblindness.

It's not like we need a color-by-numbers guide to solve these puzzles. A simple hue shift or alternate color scheme for the affected puzzles would be more than adequate, and could be implemented completely optionally without "watering down" the game experience for those who use it. I would strongly urge the game's creator to consider this.
Last edited by Auld.Jenkins; Jan 30, 2016 @ 7:10pm
himmatsj Jan 30, 2016 @ 9:46pm 
Originally posted by dean0null:
There are panels that are very hard to see what is on them. I wish there was a colorblind option for all puzzles.

Here's an example: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/610604005634668610/1D72B142D5E33D9B08214E1F4C2CCCDC954B8CCE/

There were some in the swamp that I literally couldn't see until I adjusted my monitor quite a bit. They were some of the blocks within a section puzzles.

Dude if that is an issue for you then god help you in the greenhouse/lift/flowers puzzle area. There are like a ton of colors used there.
dean0null Jan 30, 2016 @ 10:13pm 
Originally posted by himmatsj:
Originally posted by dean0null:
There are panels that are very hard to see what is on them. I wish there was a colorblind option for all puzzles.

Here's an example: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/610604005634668610/1D72B142D5E33D9B08214E1F4C2CCCDC954B8CCE/

There were some in the swamp that I literally couldn't see until I adjusted my monitor quite a bit. They were some of the blocks within a section puzzles.

Dude if that is an issue for you then god help you in the greenhouse/lift/flowers puzzle area. There are like a ton of colors used there.
That's where I had to look it up. That's one of the puzzles I linked
VaultBoy Jan 31, 2016 @ 2:29am 
With the majority of the panels, I don't think it's too much to include a color blind option. To differntiate different colored shapes, textures or even numbers could be embedded in the shape.

In the greenhouse however, the way those puzzles are solved, I can't imagine a colorblind solution. Those panels are entirely about colors and how those colors change through tinted windows or different colored lighting. But, they're not required to complete the game.
dean0null Jan 31, 2016 @ 3:50am 
Originally posted by VaultBoy:
With the majority of the panels, I don't think it's too much to include a color blind option. To differntiate different colored shapes, textures or even numbers could be embedded in the shape.

In the greenhouse however, the way those puzzles are solved, I can't imagine a colorblind solution. Those panels are entirely about colors and how those colors change through tinted windows or different colored lighting. But, they're not required to complete the game.
Well, it's actually quite easy. Just make it so that the colors don't actually represent the what the real colors are. For normal people, it would function normally, but for colorblind people the difference between the colors shown on the panels would have more contrast between them.
VaultBoy Jan 31, 2016 @ 5:21am 
Originally posted by dean0null:
Originally posted by VaultBoy:
With the majority of the panels, I don't think it's too much to include a color blind option. To differntiate different colored shapes, textures or even numbers could be embedded in the shape.

In the greenhouse however, the way those puzzles are solved, I can't imagine a colorblind solution. Those panels are entirely about colors and how those colors change through tinted windows or different colored lighting. But, they're not required to complete the game.
Well, it's actually quite easy. Just make it so that the colors don't actually represent the what the real colors are. For normal people, it would function normally, but for colorblind people the difference between the colors shown on the panels would have more contrast between them.
As I said, for a majority of the puzzles making it accessible should require some minor updates. For a certain set of puzzles, the colors and how the player manipulates those colors are the means to finding a solution. For those puzzles, if the panel presented color-blind safe colors, the solution wouldn't work. The solution only works because of the color pallette used.

Greenhouse Solution Spoilers
In the greenhouse, there are panels with multiple colored squares. With the colored configuration, they're unsolvable. When you look through a color tinted window, the color pallette is reduced and provides the true solution to the puzzle.

The only solution I can think of would be to simply remove the need to use the tint to see the panel correctly and ensure the correct solution is accessible to people that are colorblind. This diminishes the aspect of figuring out how you're supposed to solve these puzzles. The trick to the puzzles is perception. It's possible, that based on what type of colorblind you are, some of the puzzles can be solved without looking through the tinted window.
dean0null Jan 31, 2016 @ 6:22am 
Simple. Just use a different tint of glass. Honestly though I don't remember if those specific few puzzles were a problem or not. I'll go back and check tomorrow.
Last edited by dean0null; Jan 31, 2016 @ 6:23am
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The Witness > Technical Support > Topic Details