How to Fix Skyball

[Jamison]

Jedi here. TL;DR at the bottom. Bums.

We played a 50 minute Skyball match earlier today. I finished almost two Guster albums as we played. It was universally despised. I took screenshots of the text chat to prove it. But it has so much potential. How do we fix it? Easily. Here are my suggestions, and hopefully you, my fellow players, will weigh in and Muse will listen to us. VIP is now amazing, but those changes took 6 months to implement. Let's make this happen faster. So, what do we do?

Skyball's problem is there is too much DEFENSE. Why is there too much defense? Because when you die, you spawn near your OWN GOAL. This causes you to kill the enemy, grab the ball, then head to THEIR goal... where they have now conveniently spawned since you killed them. They then kill you, grab the ball, head to your goal, you spawn, kill them, take the ball, go to their goal... ad infinitum.

How do we fix this? The 35 second slightly-longer spawn time is GOOD... you SHOULD be penalized when you die. After all, VIP had the same type of problem: constant suiciding escorts ruined it. The real problem is the LOCATION of the spawns. All teams need to spawn in the middle of the north-south Y axis. I don't care if they spawn in the exact center or the west or the east. It doesn't matter. But the spawns need to be equidistant from each goal and the same for each team. That way, when you die, you're not near EITHER goal... which is better for gameplay, but also allows you to make a viable DECISION of which direction to head (further, you should spawn pointing east or west). At this point, dying is a REWARD because it allows your team to defend way more effectively.

On Battle for the Ball, a map with a ton of potential (including for 3 vs. 3 Deathmatch called "Graveyard" ;)), the sandstorm needs to be removed entirely (or should spawn on the left AND right of the map but travel north to south on one side and south to north on the other to "funnel" players into the middle; this is a way more complicated suggestion so I'd call it a pipe dream). I hated the sand to begin with, but with spawns in the center of the Y-axis, spawning in a dust storm will be very not fun (Scrap has the same problem, but it's avoidable, so it's okay).

Now that there's less defense, games will go quickly if only 2 points are required to win. Up the winning threshold to 3 points. Voila.

To prevent long matches, add a new mechanic to the game that is a game timer (and a clock, honestly, but that's a different topic). Matches should cap out at 20 minutes and whoever has more points should win. Tied scores should have an overtime of 5 minutes but result in a draw if nobody scores... or just give the win to whichever team destroys the other team in sudden death ;). This timer/clock would ALSO help tournaments and competitive play, so it should doubly be implemented (shocked it isn't in after almost 4 years, honestly).

Blocking the point is good. It's like a tiny game of King of the Hill and encourages people to actually defend the point. Without blocking, the game would turn into the Squid race we all dread.

Also, just as 2 vs. 2 VIP sucks, 2 vs. 2 Skyball sucks. Remove it.

TL;DR:
1. Move spawns to the middle of the Y-axis of the map, AWAY from goals.
2. Remove the sandstorm on Battle for the Ball
3. Change the score threshold from 2 to 3.
4. Add a 20 minute match time limit.
5. Keep the KOTH blocking mechanic at goals.
6. Remove 2 vs. 2.

Thoughts?

This was later pasted to the official GOI forums. If you've read it there, you're up to date. Viewable here: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,7958.0.html

[BobDoleReigns]

Completely agree, skyball as it currently stand is painful... the game lasts forever, the sand is unrelenting, 90% of people just pretend its deathmatch... as an engy on a pyra yesterday I literally spent an hour running in a clockwise circle from the engines to the hull. It was not fun, it was literally painful I felt like my head was going to explode from the stupid pointlessness.

... Also... just my two cents but get rid of the cargo hook thing and make people bring a harpoon... makes things more interesting and actually makes the poon useful for once.

Also credit to Richard Lemoon but at the very least make it so that your "scoring" progress is frozen so if its at 3/4 when it it interupted it stays at 3/4.

[agamemnon]

i agree with jamison and those are exactly what needs to be fixxed. MUSE get on the ball and fix skyball

[Aethelfrith]

I'm not a fan of this new game mode, but these fixes would make it more fun.

[Sean123fs]

I agree with Jamison 100%, but i also think that maybe instead of just increasing the spawn timer and moving the spawn locations to penalize deaths maybe give the team that get the kills small buffs similar to how you get buffs in alliance for doing the side objectives. The buffs should probably only last for 30 seconds so that one team doesn't continuously stack buffs and the buffs would be minor things such as better engine output, but i feel that for a gamemode like skyball that is just supposed to be for fun adding little buffs would be nice.

[Letheliah]

I don't think people realize that team ship compositions are REALLY important for this game mode and differing ships and capabilities of the crew change the experience. It's not their fault, since getting a 3v3 or 4v4 full crew match together and voting for tht game type can be difficult, so exploring the possibilities is rare. I really dislike 2v2 Skyball, but idk if I'd remove it completely.
I do believe Jamison's suggestions could benefit the game, and in a way they won't break the game mode. I'm all for it.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE the ability to harpoon the ball. However, idk the mechanics behind the game coding to make this possible.

I wonder if you guys could help me explore a possible glitch too? I was reversing into an enemy while I had the ball captured, and when I rammed the enemy the balloon was "stolen" from me, despite the balloon being at my fore and away from the enemy. I'm wondeing if this maybe had to do with the balloon tether to your ship and the balloon hit box, but I have considered it could be a lag issue as well.

Anyway, Skyball remains to be one of my favorite game modes and it can only get better the more people play it.

[GrumpkinEsq]

I want to agree with Jedi, but he refuses to vote for Skyball so I've only had one instance playing it.

[BobDoleReigns]

Originally posted by Trumpkin:

I want to agree with Jedi, but he refuses to vote for Skyball so I've only had one instance playing it.

Over half of the skyball matches I've played (two out of three to be exact) have lasted over an hour... who in their right mind would vote for that?

[GrumpkinEsq]

I just played a 3v3 and the match actually moved very quickly. But, that had a lot to do with very low level crews vs. 1 good crew. I almost scored twice, but my ♥♥♥♥ crew was unable to keep me alive despite being mere meters from the goal. My nept engineer dropped leaving me with an AI, but by then it was too late. I also hit a lag spike while going for a block which sent me off course.

I can see how a balanced crew can extend the game indefinitely, but I feel like a 20 minute time limit might be a bit short (especially if you incrase the win total to 3 [which I support] - I'd suggest 30 minutes of a time limit rather than 20).

Also wishful thinking - but it'd be great if you could attach the ball to an artemis and pass it to your teammate a distance away - but that mechanic cannot work.

I have a couple of concerns about moving the spawn to the middle
1. Unless I am mistaken Jedi is advocating that you spawn on or near the ball spawn. This is problematic because I can commit suicide when a point is emminent and find myself respwaning closer to the ball than the opponent. Which if everyone is at the opposing goal - gives me a free shot to score myself.
2. Is the game coded to have variable spawn points? Basically, we'd be trying to have the initial spawn at the start of the game disappear and have them then move towards the center - which is something i've never seen the game do. Seems like the spawn points are fixed.
3. If they are fixed, how about moving the spawn points to the corners of the map. On a soccer pitch think about it as having substitutes enter during game play from their own corner flags rather than midfield during a stoppage of play. In game this would force you a greater distance away from the goal (placing you significantly behind it) and would lessen the reward for dying either for defensive or offensive purposes. This would also make the race to the center at the beginning of the game more crazy.

[Banneret]

I played three or four Skyball matches, and I agree with most of your suggestions. However, I know that Muse is resistant to adding strict timers, and I feel that game length can be sufficiently reduced through the other changes. I've only played as Engineer, so I can make no Pilot-perspective suggestions.

Spawning at corners or along the midline of the map are both good solutions, though I agree than an ideal would have the initial spawn at goals and the respawns in the middle. Perhaps five spawn points in the middle - two slightly toward one side on either wing, two on the other, and one dead center. This would allow ships to create some distance depending on their composition, but still keep the game focused on offense.

I like the inclusion of sandstorms on maps, but feel that you either want the dual funneling that Jedi suggests, or storms that run from one side to the other in a serpentine manner, which will force all ships to one side of the mid-map while rewarding handling.

It may be better to drop 2v2, but I need more play to confirm. Remember that a bad mode-map mixture can seem good with good teams, but a good one remains tolerable even with bad teams.

[Hyskaris]

I wouldn't recommend being able to spawn in the middle of the map, since where I've heard, that's where the ball spawns beginning of the game, after being scored, etc. I wouldn't suggest a spawn being NEAR the middle of it either, but maybe just off to the sides of the spawn. Figure out the bisecting point of the goal to the ball, set up spawn points along that axis, and then you got yourself a pretty fair start.

There would be 8 spawn points, but limited to four different ones per start per team. Red Team spawns in all 4 different points, creating half a octagon, while Blue Team finishes this octagon. Get rid of one spawn for 3v3, two for 2v2 (if they keep it). Beginning of the match, you spawn on your side of the map containing your goal, allowing a clash in the center for the ball and may the best ship grab it and win. Figuratively, this will give EVERY player in the match a chance to make a choice of either fleeing to the goal to protect it, or to run after the ball. When someone dies and respawns? They end up on their side of the map, NOT NEAR THE GOAL, allowing the enemy team to still be able to make a goal. This gives this newly respawned ship the decision to either go after the ball after a goal was made, or to protect the goal with the chance of failure.

This also stops the idea of suicides, as you cannot respawn directly next to your goal to prevent a point or to just get a quick and easy transport back to the goal. You cannot respawn directly next to the ball either, although you may be closer. In comes the reason why that extended respawn timer was implemented. Point out any flaws you see in this plan, 'cause I'll start thinking of how to fix them.

I wrote that whole thing without even watching a Skyball match, I'm desperate.

[PieOhMy]

Just my two cents, from an engi's point of view - Ive had five or six Skyball matches now, and out of that, two of them have been 50mins plus.

At the end of the long matches people were mad, people quit, people said "♥♥♥♥ this game". The other matches were around the 15-30 minute mark and everyone had a lot of fun. Im not sure if a timer is the way to go, or if implementing some other changes would make it shorter, but something does need to change so that people who love this game are not rage-quitting at the end of a Skyball match.

I completely agree with Letheliah, and think that a lot of people do not yet realize the importance of team composition (or the actual high levels of communication and team work between captains required to make it go smoothly).
In most of my matches, from what I could see, its been basically a free for all- with everyone grabbing at the ball, noone working to escort ball carrier, not enough disable ships on the team, no blocking, strategizing etc. Each individual ship has a plan, but noone seems to be planning as a whole team. My shorter matches have been as a result of a well coordinated, highly communicative team. I feel this has a lot to do with the game mode being so new, but I fear that peoples reluctance to play any Skyball matches will only perpetuate this problem. Like Bob said- who in their right mind would vote skyball, when half your matches are an hour long?

In the 20 minute matches, as an engi, I didnt mind the sandstorms - they were bearable with a smart captain, and a good repair rotation. Keeping that same rotation up for 50 MINUTES though (still with a smart captain) I was -NOT- okay with. I wanted to never engineer again after those matches. I dont think removing the sandstorms is necessary at all, they add a bit of fun to the matches -however, remember this is just an engi POV, and at the stage where we hit a sandstorm, Im too busy with repairs to be looking at our position on the map/proximity to spawn etc. I need to play more, before I can comment on moving spawn locations etc.

Im ranting.. Long story short, I think Skyball can be super fun, but there is a big problem at the moment with the amount of time a match can take. Something needs to be done.

[Ragnarokalex]

Agreeing with Jamison here. As an engi for the one actual game of it i did was really rough considering the sandstorms, and i feel detracted from the main draw of the match itself. It's a kind of cool idea i guess, but i think its more just distracting rather than enhancing. I also strongly agree on the point with the spawn points, death isn't anywhere near significant enough for my tastes.

[DATA]

at least it aint crazy king.... srsly tho, ya; i wholeheartedly agree with these proposed changes. matches are too long because its just tackling back n forth. at least from the couple matches i played

[Patchateeka]

These are good suggestions. I still think the game mode will still rely far too much on 3 engineered squids but it's a good start.

[Jamison]

Originally posted by Chocolatemilkshark:

at least it aint crazy king.... srsly tho, ya; i wholeheartedly agree with these proposed changes. matches are too long because its just tackling back n forth. at least from the couple matches i played

I like Crazy King only because I can usually marshal my team into not being stupid. Killing is bad, disabling is good. Letting the enemy kill you is often good. That isn't how it should be played, but I game the system. Which is how I'm now making Skyball almost tolerable... if my team listens. But, as I posted on the official forums today...

...Muse played a "good," "short" Skyball match that only lasted 12 minutes in the dev games today. It wasn't an actually good game by any means, but since it was only 12 minutes Muse will think nothing's wrong with Skyball. Rose-tinted glasses 'n' all. Red team beat the ♥♥♥♥ out of Blue and Blue couldn't even get a kill at their own goal AT WHICH THEY SPAWN. It was a buffet for Red. It was absolutely embarrassing how incompetent Blue was :'( And with 2 goals as the threshold for victory, they never stood a chance to get their ♥♥♥♥ together... :-\