Rank Revamp Discussion

[Distant]

Just gonna leave this here for people that haven't seen it yet and wants to discuss on the topic

Originally posted by Gert-Jan Stolk:

For the sake of feedback I like to discuss the plan for a bit. Don't get too excited I haven't done the calculations yet on how long it would take to implement all of this. So it might take a while for us to actually get this going in between all other things we're working on. If it will happen it will be Q1 2017 at the very earliest.

Ok, expectations managed!! I hope?

So here's the plan:
We'll be having tournament seasons which consist of 3 phases. Each phase will take, let's say a month for now.

1. Placing In this month we'll switch the ranking system from the current system to an ELO bases system where everybody will start with 0 points. At the end of the month we'll take the top 16(-ish) players.
   
2. Tournament We'll switch the ranking system back to the current ranking system. Meanwhile the top-x players will play in a knockout tournament which we'll feature prominently in the game. This is where most of the work is for us. I'm thinking of a system where times to play matches can be setup between players. These times are publicly visible. During a tournament game replay files will be automatically posted directly after each match (sort of a spectator mode with 1 game time of lag). Not sure yet how fancy the system is but I'm thinking of first creating a minimal viable version and improve it it subsequent seasons.
   
3. Off-season A month where all players can polish up their skill for the next season and we can improve the system for next seasons.

Now note that this is the initial plan, the overarching idea is to change whatever is needed for the next season based on what we learned previous season.

So that's roughly the idea, let me know what you think.

Originally posted by Gert-Jan Stolk:

Using an ELO system has it's advantages and disadvantages.
The main disadvantage is that ELO will feel more like a struggle. You will lose points and derank more often or stagnate earlier than in the current rank system.
The advantage however is that your ELO score will be a good representation of your skill relatively quickly. Therefore everybody starting at 0 would make sense.

Note that when switching back to the ELO system will not reset your score in the current ranking system. After placing you are back in the current ranking system with the same score you had before placing.

[Distant]

Bump

[TP[¬] Touki]

I'm eager to see the current ranking system gone, so seeing this, feels like a step forward in the right direction.
Here's MY OPINION on this specific list

Points

1. ELO system is great IMO, okay it's frustrating for players that just got silver and boom back to bronze, back to silver back to bronze. My answer is: get better. If you're ALMOST Silver, then you're not Silver enough, so it's a non-problem.
   If people don't want to be stressed out with points, there's casuals lobbies for that.
   
   
2. I'm okay-ish to get a top 16 tournament at the end of the season, but I'm not sure how viable that is. Hell, the ranking system is worldwide, how are you expecting to gather all these people together at the same time?
   
   
3. Why would you have "off-seasons"? Ranking should be available at all time.

Suggestions

1. If you're too afraid to hurt players feelings by removing their points, then just display something in-game that says "Previous season rank" or "Highest season rank", for example.
   
   
2. Heh, that's tournament organisation, I don't have much to say. Time and date will just never please everyone.
   
   
3. You're not compelled to do tournaments EVERY season. You can name in-between seaons "Pre-Season" for example. With the ranking system still active, but not leading to a tournament.

PS: REMOVE.THOSE.LOBBY.PICKER

[Gert-Jan Stolk]

Originally posted by TP¬ Touki:

• I'm okay-ish to get a top 16 tournament at the end of the season, but I'm not sure how viable that is. Hell, the ranking system is worldwide, how are you expecting to gather all these people together at the same time?

The idea is to have about a week to come to an agreement for a time to do the match. The hope is that players will be able to find some moment in time that works for both.

Originally posted by TP¬ Touki:

Why would you have "off-seasons"? Ranking should be available at all time.

[/quote]
For us to evaluate and update the system for the next season. During that time the current ranking system will be available.

Originally posted by TP¬ Touki:

If you're too afraid to hurt players feelings by removing their points, then just display something in-game that says "Previous season rank" or "Highest season rank", for example.

[/quote]
We have thought about that, it's a surprisingly big feature to make.

Originally posted by TP¬ Touki:

PS: REMOVE.THOSE.LOBBY.PICKER

What? Who?

[Plastic Shitlord]

When the new ranking system comes, all I want is being able to have the earned points permanently, and season ranking being calculated separately. Right now it all sound like: oh, you have earned gold league with the new system and it was hard af? Well, too bad, you're entry now again.

[Didsec]

couldn't you just add another option to the multiplayer menu and have 2 sets of rank ?
a normal ranked and ELO ranked that way people that don't want to participate in the ELO are not forced too

[Akas]

Don't really care about the ranking system, just want the Old Boys back naw mean?

But yea the ranking system now is too stale and boring. I'd say Touki's opinion should be weighed heavily on this since he proposed something regarding to the ranking system like ages ago.

[TP[¬] Touki]

Thanks for your feedback Gert, I guess I'll just wait and see how it goes.

Originally posted by Gert-Jan Stolk:

For us to evaluate and update the system for the next season. During that time the current ranking system will be available.

That's what I suspected, I guess that was just a wrong naming interepretation of mine (Hence "Pre season")

Originally posted by Gert-Jan Stolk:

We have thought about that, it's a surprisingly big feature to make.

Ha, I have no idea how it's done on your side, I'll just take your words for it. It's not mandatory or anything, it would just be a nice little feature to have so people would not complain as much (see Plastic Sh*tLord below)

Originally posted by Gert-Jan Stolk:

Originally posted by TP¬ Touki:

PS: REMOVE.THOSE.LOBBY.PICKER

What? Who?

I was refering to an older suggestion of mine to remove the possibility to choose who you're playing against as I feel it would be a nice next step in the competitive ranking system. But, one step at a time is all fine

Originally posted by Plastic ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥:

When the new ranking system comes, all I want is being able to have the earned points permanently, and season ranking being calculated separately. Right now it all sound like: oh, you have earned gold league with the new system and it was hard af? Well, too bad, you're entry now again.

Yeah, your feelings, I want to say, don't matter for the goods of the game itself. Ofc people don't like changes, that's how it is. Some people would have 1,000 points and wouldn't agree switching it back to 0. And some have over 100,000 and agree.
Now buckle up, take a screenshot of your accomplishement, and you'll be able to brag later on how hard you worked (hours you played?) to get that old rank!

Originally posted by diddy81:

couldn't you just add another option to the multiplayer menu and have 2 sets of rank ?
a normal ranked and ELO ranked that way people that don't want to participate in the ELO are not forced too

That would segregate the playerbase even more. I don't think it's a good idea at all

Originally posted by Vix:

I'd say Touki's opinion should be weighed heavily on this since he proposed something regarding to the ranking system like ages ago.

I disagree, my opinion should weight as heavy as any other player, just because I proposed something already doesn't value my opinion more or anything. It just means I took longer time to think about it

[Plastic Shitlord]

@Touki
I've said this a lot of times before, but it seems I have to do it again: how is it balancing to have your rank dropped every season? The new system will make ranking up as a struggle, which is fair, but erasing all you've achieved regulary? Hell no, I don't agree with this.

Think of it like if it happened in, say, Dota - clear example of a fair ranking system. Getting to 4k MMR requires a lot of effort, let alone 5-6-Xk points. There we have these milestones as something you've achieved with hard work. If all these points would've been erased each, say, 3 months, people would flip out of getting matched with low/high skilled people (depends on the individual's skill) every time they want to calibrate again

Same thing here: I don't want to forcefully play with entries every single point reset just because I have to get my points back. Simply because it's unfair to them and makes playing ranked Sisyphean. This is why I want to reset once - when the new system is out

[AGP]

Here's what I'll say:

make the reset happen by sign up only and set the participants on a seperate ranking server with different league names such as "Division 1, 2, 3, etc". Also allow everyone that signed up into a 2nd ranked mode where you can see other player's divisions and their progress in that division while in game. If you meet a participant outside of the 2nd ranked mode, you will be able to see both their league and their progress in their division. Only the 2nd ranked mode counts points for the division, the normal ranked mode will count points for your league.

I hope this makes sense for everyone

[Akas]

Originally posted by Vix:

I'd say Touki's opinion should be weighed heavily on this since he proposed something regarding to the ranking system like ages ago.

I disagree, my opinion should weight as heavy as any other player, just because I proposed something already doesn't value my opinion more or anything. It just means I took longer time to think about it [/quote]


Well you noticed the flaw when I first started the game so you've known this is flawed for a long time. I don't want people to make s2pid suggestions. At least the suggestions you provide are valid.

[Oliver Aiku]

I'm pretty sure if something like this kicks off, many players and myself included will return back to this game.

Regardless of disadvantages, something like an ELO system is fine for a game like SpeedRunners. Moving between different ranks/leagues is a part of games, those people that don't progress greatly are inconsistent at the game itself. If you are really disappointed that you have fallen, simply create a profile system or a way to see their highest achieved rank per season. Hell, even let them keep the league emblem that they were in but match them up according to their real skill.

I like the tournament idea, but it needs to be optional. We don't want to force the top 16 players into a tournament every season. There's timezones, school, work, and many other factors which will cause issues. The game doesn't seem that populated so there's no reason to split the leaderboard into regions either. The idea of having an ultimate battle/championship between the pros isn't a bad idea though.

I think tournaments for the pro players as the season goes along is perfectly fine too. Different tournaments with different rulesets, maps and possibly gamemodes is a fun way to challenge the best players in SpeedRunners. We can reward them different emblems or trails for these scheduled tournaments. We can place their accomplishments to their profile, etc.

What we need to do is reward the top players every season that make it to top 50 or 100 worldwide. Whether that's a fancy border, trail, sparkle, we need to reward the best players for their effort per season. On the flip side, create a fancy reward for ALL the players that participated regardless of rank. Perhaps reward players every time they reach 300 wins with something. The lack of cosmetics or things that we can reward is also a problem.

Every season have a SOFT reset. The top diamond players should just be placed back in diamond, or platinum. Everyone can slightly move 1 or 2 leagues depending on how they do in the new season. We do not want a hard reset which mixes the entire playerbase together. The off-season should be 1-2 weeks, give players a break between seasons is a perfect idea.

I think you guys are on the right track and if these ideas are put into motion, SpeedRunners is heading into the right direction.

[Plastic Shitlord]

Originally posted by KernelPad:

Every season have a SOFT reset. The top diamond players should just be placed back in diamond, or platinum. Everyone can slightly move 1 or 2 leagues depending on how they do in the new season. We do not want a hard reset which mixes the entire playerbase together.

This.

[Immortal King]

Gert-Jan Stolk
What about the achievement of ranking to the bronze league? it will be removed since the online system will change? a lot of achievement hunters have encountered a problem with this achievement, because not all from massive countries so ranking up it's hard with lag, and to rank to bronze it's a lot of time.

[AGP]

Originally posted by Immortal King:

Gert-Jan Stolk
What about the achievement of ranking to the bronze league? it will be removed since the online system will change? a lot of achievement hunters have encountered a problem with this achievement, because not all from massive countries so ranking up it's hard with lag, and to rank to bronze it's a lot of time.

The ranks will change for 1 month and will reset to normal after that 1 month tournament is over

[Immortal King]

Originally posted by a_guy_playing:

The ranks will change for 1 month and will reset to normal after that 1 month tournament is over

So now, only 1 month to rank up to bronze... even harder.