PVP Survival mode would be epic

[Drogash]

I know how your doing co-op but wouldn't it be really cool to have a PVP mode. where you are trying to survive longer then the other team,

You gotta defend your base from the waves longer then the other people,
you can also risk trying to attack them and weaken there defences, but then it might be harder for you to defend the next wave, and if you didn't do much damage then it was all for nothing.

4 way FFA, 1v1, 2v2 and the Goal is to survive the longest, being the last team standing.

I think a Survival RTS PVP Mode, would be epic and cool,

The waves will attack all players, They are Powerful and made to end the game, and there will be perks for the waves like in single player, its plays the same way as Single player but now. theres 4 People on the map, It's bigger and its a FFA, and the Goal is to be the last Team standing,

The waves get harder and harder as the games goes on, Map would be full of Nightmares. and Fog, gotta risk trying to scout the enemy base, and weaken them before you get over run by the waves, The waves would spawn Every night, in this Mode

This game would be Insane, If it had a PVP mode


I would really like to see a RTS/Survival PVP game one day, its sounds like alot of fun,

The Goal of the game is not for the Player to kill the other player, because that is almost impossible, the Goal is to try to slow them down from expanding, and weakning there walls or defence and towers, so the Nightmare wave can come and clean them up for you,
The Nightmares wave is Made to Kill you,

But watch out. attacking the enemy just before night time, is risky, and you will get trapped with no way to get back to base,

defending waves trying to survive the night, and planning and trying to scout the enemy, try to attack them to slow them down, so you have a better chance to survive longer, and win the game,

[Buntkreuz]

Im generally in favor of semi-cooperative or semi-competitive modes.
That means playing together but with competitive aspects or playing against each other but with cooperative aspects.
A mode where i am not playing direction WITH another player, but we are both on the same map, competing for the same resources, space etc could be great.
It wouldnt be PvP because my goal would not be to destroy the other player.
It would be more semi-cooperative, because we share the same goal (survive) and enemy, but compete about crucial aspects (resources).
Such a mode would also allow to trade with another player.

In other words, i would like to have a coop mode, that allows for some competitive rules, separate bases, units etc, but at the same time allows to exchange resources, units.

Its kind of the same as what you seem to mean, with slight differences.

What is important to note because it often gets overlooked by people demanding modes like you do:
A mode where players are eliminated separately has the core problem of also separating the group.
Imagine you play with two friends in such a mode.
Your one friend gets eliminated already after the second death night, the other one continues to play with you for another hour and a half, then also gets eliminated, you then continue to survive for another hour until the game is finished and you "won".
The first player eliminated would have waited 2 and a half hours until you can play again.

Games like these arent directly designed to be PvP, because their flow is much slower, it takes longer to build up and develop.
They are more aimed to work like Caesar or Anno, where you play for several hours.
And thats why games that are slower paced but have PvP have specific rulesets and designs to actually work.

In that sense, PvP ultimatively only had one very likely result:
You played 2 hours "against" each other, but the experience of surviving together, the hardship you endure would pull you together to a team.
If you played for 2 hours on the same map sharing those experiences and your friend was getting swarmed in a deathnight and you could help preventing him from being eliminated, i bet on a pretty high chance that you would send help to prevent that from happening.

"Bottomline":
I think a few coop mode rules could be fun to allow players to customize their experiences.


For example whether players spawn together or far away (like on opposite sides of the map), whether they share resources or have separate pools, maybe you share control over one base or have shared unit control or each player having his/her own.
You know, options that allow to either cooperate more closely with another player up to controling the same base together or to mix in some competitive aspects by separating you from him/her.
That way you would have a more PvP nuanced coop mode that was still about surviving TOGETHER on one map, but allowed to betray each other.
And others who want to completely embrace Coop can tighten the connection to their fellow players and even share control about their units or resources if they want.

Ofcourse that needed the developers to add a ton of things.
Like a proper trading/diplomacy menu allowing players to send resources (see AoE2DE for a perfect solution) and so on.
But at the very end the developers had to come up with a proper design for coop anyway and maybe adding several options to tweak it would help toa void having a too narrow design for it.
In general i am convinced that multiplayer modes with a "semi"-design are far superior to pure designs where you can just cooperate completely or where you are just enemies without any form of cooperation.
PvP or Coop with aspects of cooperation or competition are far more fun.
In terms of strategy games i think AoE2DE is the best solution on the entire market.
You can form a team and use diplomacy, but you can also outright quit the team and fall a player in the back.
I wished strategy game developers would be influenced far more often by AOE2s Design.

[Drogash]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Argentum:

Im generally in favor of semi-cooperative or semi-competitive modes.
That means playing together but with competitive aspects or playing against each other but with cooperative aspects.
A mode where i am not playing direction WITH another player, but we are both on the same map, competing for the same resources, space etc could be great.
It wouldnt be PvP because my goal would not be to destroy the other player.
It would be more semi-cooperative, because we share the same goal (survive) and enemy, but compete about crucial aspects (resources).
Such a mode would also allow to trade with another player.

In other words, i would like to have a coop mode, that allows for some competitive rules, separate bases, units etc, but at the same time allows to exchange resources, units.

Its kind of the same as what you seem to mean, with slight differences.

What is important to note because it often gets overlooked by people demanding modes like you do:
A mode where players are eliminated separately has the core problem of also separating the group.
Imagine you play with two friends in such a mode.
Your one friend gets eliminated already after the second death night, the other one continues to play with you for another hour and a half, then also gets eliminated, you then continue to survive for another hour until the game is finished and you "won".
The first player eliminated would have waited 2 and a half hours until you can play again.

Games like these arent directly designed to be PvP, because their flow is much slower, it takes longer to build up and develop.
They are more aimed to work like Caesar or Anno, where you play for several hours.
And thats why games that are slower paced but have PvP have specific rulesets and designs to actually work.

In that sense, PvP ultimatively only had one very likely result:
You played 2 hours "against" each other, but the experience of surviving together, the hardship you endure would pull you together to a team.
If you played for 2 hours on the same map sharing those experiences and your friend was getting swarmed in a deathnight and you could help preventing him from being eliminated, i bet on a pretty high chance that you would send help to prevent that from happening.

"Bottomline":
I think a few coop mode rules could be fun to allow players to customize their experiences.


For example whether players spawn together or far away (like on opposite sides of the map), whether they share resources or have separate pools, maybe you share control over one base or have shared unit control or each player having his/her own.
You know, options that allow to either cooperate more closely with another player up to controling the same base together or to mix in some competitive aspects by separating you from him/her.
That way you would have a more PvP nuanced coop mode that was still about surviving TOGETHER on one map, but allowed to betray each other.
And others who want to completely embrace Coop can tighten the connection to their fellow players and even share control about their units or resources if they want.

Ofcourse that needed the developers to add a ton of things.
Like a proper trading/diplomacy menu allowing players to send resources (see AoE2DE for a perfect solution) and so on.
But at the very end the developers had to come up with a proper design for coop anyway and maybe adding several options to tweak it would help toa void having a too narrow design for it.
In general i am convinced that multiplayer modes with a "semi"-design are far superior to pure designs where you can just cooperate completely or where you are just enemies without any form of cooperation.
PvP or Coop with aspects of cooperation or competition are far more fun.
In terms of strategy games i think AoE2DE is the best solution on the entire market.
You can form a team and use diplomacy, but you can also outright quit the team and fall a player in the back.
I wished strategy game developers would be influenced far more often by AOE2s Design.

What i was trying to say. is I want PVP But the Goal is not for the Player to zerg rush the other player. and win with hes own units. the Goal is to try and weaken there defences so the nightmare wave will kill them next wave,

there is no teaming up. if you wanna be a Team then play Co-op,

pretty much Attacking anther player is 10x harder then defending is my point,

Its way easier to defend then trying to attack other players because
1, you got walls,
2 you got watch Towers, with archers,
3 you got Siege towers,
4, you cant Build close to other players buildings,
5 You do less damage vs player buildings,


Your Goal is to be the last Man Standing. you dont want to trade with the Other player and help them survive longer, you want to weaken them as much as you can. so you can survive the next Night,

The game ends when you are the last one Alive. then you get the victory screen,

This is PVP, Survival Mode, You are trying to survive the best you can, because the Nightmare wave is gonna Wipe you out no matter what,

This is not Single player where you can Take over the whole map. and Take out the Nightmare waves with ease,

In this PVP survival Mode. the Nightmare wave is Buffed Big time. they are going to break through your defences no matter what you do. the point is to live longer then everyone else, so you win, the Goal is not to fight the Nightmare waves, because thats impossible its gonna wipe you. even if you had all the best tech,

In this PVP survival mode, game shouldn't last longer then 1 hour, the Nightmare waves should be Buffed soo strong that games will never last over 1 Hour, The Nightmare waves, are made Impossible to defend, The Goal is to not be the first one too die, so you gotta play Fast. and smart. and try to weaken the other players without hurting your defences so you can be the last man standing, and win,

This is Short PVP survival Fun, Not a Mode you play with friends, its a Mode you Play vs randoms, to see who is the best, and maybe a ranking system,

This is not Starcraft were you rush the other player and win the game, with ur Units,
This is like 60% survival and 40% PvP,

you can Send ur Hero to go Attack there base if you wanted, but its not gonna do much, if they got walls and towers is my point,

with every player always getting attacked By the Nightmare waves, you gotta plan ur attacks Smartly during the day on other players, because you attacking them could end up helping them. if it becomes night time. and now ur army is stuck between the enemy player and the Nightmare wave,


This is Full Out PVP, But like i said before. Its almost impossible for a Player to wipe out anther player, with hes own Units/hero, It can be done, just not somthing you see every match,

The Nightmare wave, will Kill you so Fast you almost dont have time to fight between each other, but you have to learn to find time to attack the enemy player and slow him down, so the Nightmare wave can kill him faster, before you die,

Its like a Race, you know the Nightmare is gonna Kill you no matter what. you cant defend vs it at all. this is not single player where its easy to survive the first night,

The First Night In this Mode. will Kill you, This game mode is made to Kill you The Goal is to be the last Man Standing, By doing what ever you can in your power to build the best defence to slow down the nightmare. while going on the offence and planning a smart attack on the enemy player to weaken there defences so the nightmare can break in and finish them off for you.

This is no Teaming up on this Mode. It's not Co-op

This is called a Survival PVP Mode,

Players Defences are way Stronger then a players attacking army, your army is not ment to wipe the other player out, but to slow them down from expanding there base, or trying to kill there hero or weaken the hero, so he is not able to defend well,

Players doe 50% less damage to other players Buildings,

[Drogash]

Players would spawn 4 Corners of the map type deal. they would not be close.

The enemy Nightmare wave would spawn in the middle of the map.

After 30mins have passed. The Game will send Endless Nightmares waves until everyone is dead.

This game mode is ment to be Short fun, PVP, not Long hours of play

Like In this Mode Most games could end in a Draw. because everyone gets wiped by the Nightmare wave

[Buntkreuz]

So if you wouldnt attack the player, how would you weaken their defenses?
Yeah exactly.
30 Minute Matches would mean they also had to completely redo the entire games balance.
Like, one unit to be trained already takes half a minute at least.
Construction time of certain buildings is too long, Nightphases duration, daytime duration etc.
Some enemies are not supposed to be killed after that time or actually incredibly hard to do so.
Some techs or upgrades have are resource sinks, so they needed to reduce the overall amount of resources necessary for every building, unit, tech.
Random Map Generation wouldnt work.
So they needed to handcraft balanced maps.
What a waste of time and resources.

You can def. design a competitive oriented mode on top of the cooperative (and random) basis the game has.
But this (your) idea takes a completely new game just using the same assets.
Im NOT saying i wouldnt like a more competitive leaning mode.
In fact, thats what i hoped Factorio would become later when played PvP.
Factoring Units you send to attack the other player while you both fight for survival against the aliens.
But its not working that way and you have to find ways to achieve a competitive ambience without forcing it on top of something that doesnt support it.
You take what is already working and implement ways to change how the game plays out.

Im also pointing out that you have a very narrow understanding of what is PvP and what is coop and how multiplayer design works.
Like "teaming up = coop" doesnt cut it.
Or "Its about who can survive the longest" is already completely irrelevant gamedesign.
Your entire mode could be replaced with a simple clock.
Ok. So let them implement an Endless Mode with a Timer and a Highscore Chart, possibly a Daily Challange so everyone plays the same map.
Boom, you have your PvP Mode. Who can survive the longest.
Doesnt even need a lobby or netcode.
If your gamemode is replacable by a simple clock, then its possibly not the best idea of a mode.

It already starts with the basic premise of "we play PvP on the same map but its incredibly hard to deal damage to another player."
Doesnt sound...thought through, is the mildest i can put it.

I recommend you research what semi-competitive or semi-cooperative actually means and how game modes (design) in general works aka how mechanics tie into each other, because there seems to be an information gap between us.
I mean, you try to tell me that using the market in AoE2 makes it a coop game because its trading between two parties.
Diplomacy or Trading does not equal cooperation.
That was the entire point of my wall of text and it already seemed to be too complicated to understand.

[Drogash]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Argentum:

So if you wouldnt attack the player, how would you weaken their defenses?
Yeah exactly.
30 Miniute Matches would mean they also had to completely redo the entire games balance.
Like, one unit to be trained already takes half a minute at least. Construction time of certain buildings is too long, Nightphases duration, daytime duration etc.
Some enemies are not supposed to be killed after that time or actually incredibly hard to do so.
Some techs or upgrades have are resource sinks, so they needed to reduce the overall amount of resources necessary for every building, unit, tech.

You can def. design a competitive oriented mode on top of the cooperative basis the game has.
But this idea takes a completely new game just using the same assets.
Im NOT saying i wouldnt like that.
In fact, thats what i hoped Factorio would become later when played PvP. Factoring Units you send to attack the other player while you both fight for survival against the aliens.

Im also pointing out that you have a very narrow understanding of what is PvP and what is coop.
I recommend you research what semi-competitive or semi-cooperative actually means and how game modes (design) in general works, because there seems to be an information gap between us.

The game would play Much faster, then single player Units train faster/ cheaper to make.
buildings would also build faster and cheaper to make,
your starting zone would have all the resources needed to build the best defence,
you also start off with more food/people
You start off with a Training camp to make units, right away,

the point of expanding ur base, is not to look for resources. but to build a Bigger better Defences Walls /Towers /Gates to slow down the Nightmare from killing you before the other players,

They could add a special unit to the PVP mode only this Unit is Made to deal more damage to player buildings, but harder to spam lots of this unit, or you can only have a X amount of numbers of this Unit at any giving time, and this unit Goal is to scout the enemy base, and weaken there defences,

what this Unit could do. is Set enemy walls on Fire,
Maybe this unit smells like a Nightmare and looks like one. so Nightmares wont attack it at all. also This PVP only unit will not attack Nightmares at all, and only attack other players units / buildings,

The enemy players would want to try and deal with these PVP units, before they help the nightmares break in

you can only have 5-10 of them out at once,

[Buntkreuz]

Again, you try to create a new game, not a new mode. If you need to change literally everything about the game, you are probably off not designing anything for it.

And i guess you can already see that what you suggest is not working at all, hence the backpaddle with now suddenly having PvP Units.
Why would you have special PvP Units and not...you know, use the units you have in the game?

There are situations where people make it more complicated than it must be.
This is such a situation.

[Drogash]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Argentum:

Again, you try to create a new game, not a new mode. If you need to change literally everything about the game, you are probably off not designing anything for it.

And i guess you can already see that what you suggest is not working at all, hence the backpaddle with now suddenly having PvP Units.
Why would you have special PvP Units and not...you know, use the units you have in the game?

You are not understanding what i saying. All units can attack players,

i trying to say add a Special unit that is made for this PVP mode only,

[Buntkreuz]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Drogash:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Argentum:

Again, you try to create a new game, not a new mode. If you need to change literally everything about the game, you are probably off not designing anything for it.

And i guess you can already see that what you suggest is not working at all, hence the backpaddle with now suddenly having PvP Units.
Why would you have special PvP Units and not...you know, use the units you have in the game?

You are not understanding what i saying. All units can attack players,

i trying to say add a Special unit that is made for this PVP mode only,

You try to avoid making a decision and find ways around that decision.
Why make a PvP unit if all can attack other players?

Im very well understanding what you are saying.
But what you are saying isnt logically sound.

[Drogash]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Argentum:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Drogash:

You are not understanding what i saying. All units can attack players,

i trying to say add a Special unit that is made for this PVP mode only,

You try to avoid making a decision and find ways around that decision.
Why make a PvP unit if all can attack other players?

because This unit does a Better job at PVP then all the other units, its a PVP special unit only. Meanning This unit is only in the PVP mode. not saying only this unit can attack players. because all units can attack players.

But this unit is made to attack Players only and do a Better job at it

1 Nightmares dont attack it or aggro too it,
2 It cant attack Nightmares, there for it is usless in PVE because it does notthing
3 Its made to help slow down the enemy player to help you win
4 This unit can be Used at Night Time to walk into the Fog, and attack the enemy player,
5 This unit only Attacks other Players and set walls on fire, deal extra damage to enemy heroes
6 This makes for better PVP because now you have a unit that can get past the Nightmares without worrying about them dying, and now you can weaken the other players, and win the game before they do the same

[Buntkreuz]

So....a complicated way to achieve the same thing as just having the current units attack enemy players.
Again, i think there is no way this would work at all.

I stand by the points i made and hope the developers add different options to customize the upcoming multiplayer mode with different conditions of more cooperative or more competitive oriented.

[crystalgatedh]

If you want a PvP in this game, letting players do something that sends nightmares against the others sounds more plausible than letting them fight each other with their units. It's still a problem to balance as the devs in many ways have to start from zero. Trying to implement something like this will probably eat up months of development time.

[Drogash]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από crystalgatedh:

If you want a PvP in this game, letting players do something that sends nightmares against the others sounds more plausible than letting them fight each other with their units. It's still a problem to balance as the devs in many ways have to start from zero. Trying to implement something like this will probably eat up months of development time.

Balance wouldnt be too bad, because every player can do the same stuff, it's not like we have races like Terran protoss or zerg to balance,

sure players will make a Meta build from the game, and then yeah you would have to balance the meta, if thats what everyone is always doing,

but i dont think balanceing the game would be a problem in PVP because
1 everyone is the same race, so everyone is equal, nothing really to balance there, if everyone is the same,

only thing i can see being a problem would be heroes maybe,

Hero balance would be a big factor too the game, making sure every hero is the same and no one hero is better then the other, besides that im sure it wouldn't be too too bad,

and i guess balancing the speed of the game and how often the waves should attack the players, and what if a Player tries to Kite hes wave of Nightmares too a enemy base, and then that player has to deal with double the numbers of nightmares because someone found a way to kite hes nightmare wave too the enemy and doesn't need to defend. that would be game breaking and would be balance for sure.

[Coverfire]

I think a Mode for PVP with PVE elements would be a lot of fun. End game goal is still the same - out survive the other player.

[Catbert7]

Completely agree; I said the same in another MP thread. I don't see much point to co-op (clearly others do), unless they made a mode specifically designed to facilitate unique team-play, but PvP... now that would be a whole new genre. Really, all it would take is fusing 2 maps together, side-by-side, and let the game play out exactly as it does now, only the victory condition is the destruction of the other player's Keep.

You could try to rush them down, raid their eco, contain their expansion, sabotage their Wave defenses, lead one of the Crushers from your Wave into them... it would be super interesting.

There may be some hope for this as well. One of the devs hinted that they're interested in PvP, on Discord.

[Drogash]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Catbert7:

Completely agree; I said the same in another MP thread. I don't see much point to co-op (clearly others do), unless they made a mode specifically designed to facilitate unique team-play, but PvP... now that would be a whole new genre. Really, all it would take is fusing 2 maps together, side-by-side, and let the game play out exactly as it does now, only the victory condition is the destruction of the other player's Keep.

You could try to rush them down, raid their eco, contain their expansion, sabotage their Wave defenses, lead one of the Crushers from your Wave into them... it would be super interesting.

There may be some hope for this as well. One of the devs hinted that they're interested in PvP, on Discord.

OMG good to hear brotha,

I think a new take on survival RTS would be great and PVP would be a step in that directions

it would also bring alot of new players because alot of people love PVP games and this would be a New PVP game that no one has ever played before.

this would also bring Starcraft players