Discussion: Elden Ring bosses have flawed battle design and do not hold up to Dark Souls 3 standards.

[Lapu]

BEFORE YOU COMMENT ANYTHING: I intend this thread to be a discussion of boss/battle design philosophy, from a choreography and programming/technical perspective; NOT criticism of difficulty per se. I see no issue with Fromsoftware games' difficulty in general. However I can already see the resident lore masters defending bad design by misinterpreting it as a criticism of difficulty and fallaciously pointing out lore implications (i.e. "MaLiKeTh iS sUpPoSeD To bE hARd, hE HaS coNTrOLL oVeR deStiNEd deATh") DO NOT COMMENT ANYTHING IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO TACKLE THE ARGUMENTS THEMSELVES (rebuttals/affirmations) NOR ABLE TO OFFER ANYTHING CONTRIBUTING TO THE TOPIC ABOVE.

That out of the way, I want to discuss how I feel Elden Ring's boss design seems to break with Fromsoft tradition and in the latter half, feels rushed, incomplete, not really play tested and like it was not a big focus in development. The issues that many have already presented are attack and movement compositions that aim to "catch" you instead of what we have experienced throughout the Dark Souls series - obstructing you. The fly in the ointment lies within this philosophy of trying to kill the player by any cheap means necessary instead of trying to get them to engage/disengage, play aggressively/passively. There are several patterns that persist throughout many boss designs where this philosophy shines through:

1. delayed unnatural attacks that are designed to make you panic roll into them (ex. Margit charging his cane for what feels like more than 5 seconds to slam it down on you)
2. telegraphs that are way too short to react to them unless you know it by muscle memory (ex. stomps in general: Godrick's wind stomp, Godfrey's rock stomp, Crucible Knight rock stomp, Margit/Morgott knive throw, Radagon light spears, Astel laser)
3. the absence of openings and attack windows (Morgott, Beast Clergyman, Maliketh, Godfrey come to mind; whereas Mohg gives you ample time during his tres duo unus nihil chain as a contrast)
4. the absence of split aggression in duo boss fights, i.e. the boss in the front should fight normally but the one in the back should only slowly approach or use ranged attacks sporadically with very obvious early telegraphs (Foreskin Duo, do I need to say anything about that?)
5. atrocious input reading and switch between active and passive modes (i.e. bosses retreating and then slowly strolling to react and catch you in your attack or consumable use; best seen in Crucible Knights, Morgott, Godfrey, Foreskin Duo, Malenia)
6. randomly mixed up combos with seemingly no fixed end

Now here's what I think happened: The devs seem to have applied Sekiro boss design to Dark Souls movement and combat. Their intention is us dodging everything masterfully that the enemy throws at us (like the deflecting in Sekiro) and then get in one or two hits while the enemy is whiffing or in (very short) recovery. No wonder then, that people who liked the Dark Souls style back and forth are disappointed. I think the biggesst point of this list here is the mixed up combos and random or sometimes non-existant recovery periods. In Dark Souls games, you'd immediately recognize combo finishers of bosses and know to attack while they are stuck in recovery. Here however, these finishers are not finishers and can immediately chain into another attack. The active/passive modes I've described also look like they were directly copied from Sekiro where they made sense, since getting the enemy to initiate their own attacks that you can then deflect is also "progression". Here however, it just serves to make you get hit. All in all, the bosses feel like an inbetween of Sekiro and Dark Souls with no thought behind the system you are working with and the limitations thereof. Personally, it doesn't feel like the Fromsoft combat I liked but is more reminiscent of the bosses in Code Vein. Another point to consider is that many of the late game bosses have also zero diversity. It's always "dude with weapon that attacks relentlessly". It's like every boss in the end is Pontiff Sulivahn, Soul of Cinder or Gael. Where are the Aldritches, Midirs, Sanctuary Guardians, Demon Princes, Deacons, Wolnirs etc.?

To drive the point home even more, it's not like all bosses are like that. We do have bosses that got the proper "Dark Souls" treatment in here: Regal Ancestor Spirit, Astel, Placidusax, literally all the Dragons, Crucible Knights, Rykard, Rennala, Sir Gideon Ofnir, heck ELDEN BEAST ffs (though the cardio is annoying and a huge flaw, I agree).

What are your thoughts? What are your favorite and most hated bosses? (for me its Placidusax and Elden Beast as the best and Godskin Duo (Noble in particular) as the worst)

[CazadorDeLobo]

Something in the way boss attacks jankily chain together without reprieve or opening feels like DS2 Drakekeeper with the big hammer. So, to reduce all of your OP to a small summary of my feelings towards it: Yes, the bosses in this game did not hold my interest for reasons described above, and what remains for me is modding the game and PvPing.

[Lapu]

Publicado originalmente por Aldain:

Publicado originalmente por Lefis:

I honestly love the CKs. They feel like Gundyr but as a miniboss. They are that enemy that you avoid at all costs on your first playthrough because they ♥♥♥♥ your ♥♥♥♥ but later you notice how exploitable they are by parrying.

That's kind of the thing though, they almost feel like they were primarily designed around parries.

A lot of things in Elden Ring feel like they were designed with a "solution" in mind compared to older games, obviously there's a lot of cheese solutions too in Elden Ring but compared to say O&S in DS1, the Godskin Duo feel like they were designed around the assumption somebody will use Sleep on one of them, of course that could also stem from them being two separate bosses crammed into a room with each other despite functionally being 1v1 bosses already.

I dunno, something just feels off to me with the enemy/boss design of Elden Ring compared to DS1-3 and Bloodborne, it feels...over-engineered? That's the word coming to mind when I think on it.

Interesting, I had a similar feeling. The one thing that bothers me immensely about Godskin Duo: is it just me or is it really not possible to leave Farum Azula to upgrade weapons/continue quests, do literally anything other than trying to beat those two? Are you really trapped there? That's the absolute worst ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I've ever seen if that really is what's happening.
Also yeah, Maliketh's relentlessness is designed around the blasphemous claw, Mohg is designed around the tear (tres, duo, unus, nihil turns him into a pinata), both omen bros have the shackle, Malenia is a Sekiro boss (the stab for an easy mikiri counter is literally still there) that was turned into a dodge test last minute, Radagon is "eat a$$, the boss", Elden Beast is seemingly designed for ranged users (and also a test of your... familiarity with the jump and running buttons?), likewise, Fire Giant second phase also seems like it had ranged users in mind

[Pyro Penguin]

elden beast is trash boss design, duo gargoyle was the best fight in the game

[Lapu]

Publicado originalmente por CazadorDeLobo:

Something in the way boss attacks jankily chain together without reprieve or opening feels like DS2 Drakekeeper with the big hammer. So, to reduce all of your OP to a small summary of my feelings towards it: Yes, the bosses in this game did not hold my interest for reasons described above, and what remains for me is modding the game and PvPing.

Holy damn, yes, I couldn't put my finger on it but now that you mention it, exactly like that guy yeah. I hated them deeply in DS2 and always dreaded fighting them. When I think of Godfrey, yeah, he is exactly like them. Combos seem like they might go for eternity and you are at the AI's mercy, whether it decides to finally end the combo and have a small window.

I really think bosses are good when you play a game multiple times and actually anticipate fighting them. When you think "so this one's up next, yeah let's do this". For me in DS that's Kalameet, Gaping Dragon, Priscilla, Sanctuary Guardian, Gwyn, Sif and Artorias, in DS2 it's Looking Glass Knight, Velstadt, Smelter Demon, Sir Alonne and Ivory King, in DS3 it's Gundyr, Dancer, Abyss Watchers, Old Demon King, Pontiff Sulivahn, Elfriede, Midir, Dragonslayer Armor and the Demon Princes (maybe Gael but I haven't fought him enough). In Elden Ring, the only ones that I can honestly say, I anticipate fighting are Radahn, Placidusax, Fia's Champions (and the Jar Warriors for that matter, I love NPC battles), Fortissax, Sir Gideon, Regal Ancestor Spirit, Astel and the Elden Beast. Compared to the total amount of bosses, that's a way lower ratio and is more like DS2 boss quality really.

[Aldain]

I'd rather fight 3 Artorias at the same time than several of the Elden Ring bosses 1 on 1, that's how much I don't like the boss design of Elden Ring (Artorias is a boss I enjoyed very much for the record, despite how much he wrecked me before I finally beat him the first time).

[CourtesyFlush09]

Publicado originalmente por Pyro Penguin:

elden beast is trash boss design, duo gargoyle was the best fight in the game

That first part got me nodding my head in agreement. That second part made me spit out my sparkling water.

[Backstabba]

Publicado originalmente por Sabaithal:

And please...do not start this "input reading" thing, you're going to bring in the conspiracy theoriests. Yes, many bosses and enemies react when the player uses estus/items which has been true for every previous souls title. And that's it, its just the AI reacting to the player performing an action, its not "input reading". I've fought every boss you listed in this section many times and I promise you they do not read your inputs, its just confirmation bias.

You can literally prove the input reading the the prisoner's starting spell "Magic Glintblade" which is a heavily delayed 2nd cast.

To test it simply cast the spell against any AI invader/hostile NPC in the game.

They will always roll the spell input but won't respond to the spell actually being launched at them.

Its actually a way to cheese nearly every hostile NPC/AI invader in the game, as they can only respond to the input but not the spell actually being shot at them.

Its so well known for beating the input reading AI that the wiki recommends using it for those enemies.

[vamirez]

Publicado originalmente por Backstabba:

Publicado originalmente por Sabaithal:

And please...do not start this "input reading" thing, you're going to bring in the conspiracy theoriests. Yes, many bosses and enemies react when the player uses estus/items which has been true for every previous souls title. And that's it, its just the AI reacting to the player performing an action, its not "input reading". I've fought every boss you listed in this section many times and I promise you they do not read your inputs, its just confirmation bias.

You can literally prove the input reading the the prisoner's starting spell "Magic Glintblade" which is a heavily delayed 2nd cast.

To test it simply cast the spell against any AI invader/hostile NPC in the game.

They will always roll the spell input but won't respond to the spell actually being launched at them.

Its actually a way to cheese nearly every hostile NPC/AI invader in the game, as they can only respond to the input but not the spell actually being shot at them.

Its so well known for beating the input reading AI that the wiki recommends using it for those enemies.

It was bound to happen ;)

[hemorrhage911]

Publicado originalmente por Aldain:

I'd rather fight 3 Artorias at the same time than several of the Elden Ring bosses 1 on 1, that's how much I don't like the boss design of Elden Ring (Artorias is a boss I enjoyed very much for the record, despite how much he wrecked me before I finally beat him the first time).

Uh the Crucible Knights are pretty much Artorias - aggressive and in your face and even had mid-fight change ups.

Difference is, Artorias is piss easy.

[Enderspoons]

Publicado originalmente por Backstabba:

~About Magic Glintblade & Input Reading

From a superficial standpoint, this is entirely correct. Under the hood though, enemies are actually reacting to your animation state and not the literal input.

For example, Godskin Apostle will react with a fireball when it reads you as being in the "Drinking Estus" animation, but not when you drink Wondrous Physick.

Enemies that can stepdodge will react to the "Firing" animation state of spells and projectiles, but not to the "Windup" animation state that happens right before that.

And so on and so forth.

Does this change anything about this argument? Not really.
Enemies reacting the way they do does mean that FromSoftware could try to account for it by just forcing a handful of extra frames of delay before an enemy is allowed to react to an animation state.
But they don't.
If I were to hazard a guess why, I'd guess that, simply, the thought that this issue needed addressing never crossed anyone's mind during development.

[königplatzen]

Publicado originalmente por Lefis:

I wanted a civil discussion of technical details and your opinions on bosses and how they could be better. Maybe even some ideas how I could enjoy them more, you know? Just what did I do to warrant sneer and mockery?

You want a "civil discussion", but I wonder, why you just ignore posts, which try to do exactly that.

[Aria Athena]

Publicado originalmente por Lefis:

3. the absence of openings and attack windows (Morgott, Beast Clergyman, Maliketh, Godfrey come to mind; whereas Mohg gives you ample time during his tres duo unus nihil chain as a contrast)
4. the absence of split aggression in duo boss fights, i.e. the boss in the front should fight normally but the one in the back should only slowly approach or use ranged attacks sporadically with very obvious early telegraphs (Foreskin Duo, do I need to say anything about that?)

3. Beast Clergyman is annoyingly hyperactive, but his second phase is fine. Godfrey has plenty of openings. Morgott could very well be the least aggressive boss in the game, he quite often just stands there. He is exactly what you would expect from an entry level boss.

4. Multiple boss fights in ER are not the best, but the Godskin duo is not exactly Orstein and Smough, they are tweedledee and tweedledum. They are inflatable buffoons that pop if you poke them. They have so little health you need to kill like 5 of them to win. Most of that fight is 1v1, or 1v0 waiting for another one to spawn.

With duo Gargoyles you get to deal a lot of damage before the second one starts moving, and afterwards you have a lot of time to finish the first one while the second one is walking very slowly towards you.

They are not designed to be fighting 2 of them, they are designed to quickly dispatch one of them and make the fight fair.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Publicado originalmente por Aria Athena:

Godfrey has plenty of openings.

Off topic, but It's incredibly dumb that his axe only has a C scaling. This dude is the physical embodiment of strength -_-

"A crown is warranted with strength"

*drops Quality weapon*

[ワイフ至上主義者]

Lol.
Another thread of dark souls players complaining that the game is difficult. Ironic that in community where "git gut" is go-to dismisal of any argument, but when the game is actually difficult that elitism built on beating "difficult" games immediately crumbles.

[1100011]

Copypasta from waay back, for the new players atm:

First of all: YouTube account Rusty has a nice collection of advice for each boss. Be sure to check out the comments for more of the community's wisdom!
1 QUICK TIP vs. EVERY Elden Ring Boss

I think learning boss fights would be more of an exciting challenge if some of the intended ways to fight would be presented to us more clearly.

Two video's have been published on Reddit that I feel sum these up rather well:
Elden Ring is simply NOT dark souls 3, so dont play them the same way
Featuring the 'worst offenders':
Morgott Lord of Infinite Combo's
Godfrey Lord of AOE Spam
Maliketh Beast of RNG And Too Much Damage

Aggression is KEY showing openings can exist during a boss attack.

Bosses, the issues and solutions.

combo's for days. These are invitations to try out the new combat mechanics: break their stance by guard counters, parries, or jump attacks; a melee character can now have options to punish at range, provided by the ashes of war; you may apply status effects quickly by bow ashes Barrage or Rain of Arrows.

health pool too large. I believe the boss's large health pools are compensating for the large damage of the stance-break viscerals. Learning how to get these is essential for game enjoyment!

AoE's. They exist to teach melee players to keep their distance. Also: some can be dodged by jumping, allowing to close distance fast, and with the jump attack deal a lot of stance damage.

One-shot / combo'd to death, for Radahn repeat a looong run back: you are expected to level up HP to match the enemy's damage output, the devs seem to assume that the open world players to level up more than in the previous games.

Delayed attacks: apparently the idea is to add interest to the fight. Don't rely on muscle memory, like in previous games, but steelheartedly look the opponent in the eye, staying calm until it is appropriate to react.

RNG boss (Fire Giant) Check out a rl1 vid and try to find the RNG. Disclamer: the Onebros have found that instances of RNG still do exist, but far less than it would seem for us lesser gamers.

might as well be boss Caelid ball bearing hunter: melee: stick to his back, bait out the shield bash & punish with jumping attack. Lightning for extra spice.