Death Stranding

Death Stranding

The Moshman Nov 21, 2019 @ 9:36am
You are not entitled to being able to understand actual art
Or to art diminishing itself in order to have universal appeal.
I don't mean to troll. By definition, high culture is elitist and thus its works cannot have mass appeal. Or as Jean Baudrillard writes;

"In any case, the very ideology of "cultural production" is antithetical to all culture, as is that of visibility and of the polyvalent space: culture is a site of the secret, of seduction, of initiation, of a restrained and highly ritualized symbolic exchange. Nothing can be done about it. Too bad for the masses."
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Showing 1-15 of 213 comments
Killance Nov 21, 2019 @ 11:26am 
Game is bad and the director himself doesn't understand this game.

It isn't art. It's a mess.
Holografix Nov 21, 2019 @ 4:45pm 
The Baudrillard quote that OP included in the post is from Baudrillard's book Simulacra and Simulations, from the chapter entitled "The Beaubourg Effect: Implosion and Deterrence." He was referring to the now famous French museum The Pompidou Centre[frenchmoments.eu] located in the area known as Beaubourg in Paris, France.

The quote is about Baudrillard critiquing the architectural design of The Pompidou Centre and its effect on the surrounding environment (the Beaubourg was a 'wasteland' in that time), and how the totally modernist design of the centre itself effects how art is experienced within the building's interior (Check the 2nd photo on the Pompidou Centre's weblink to see how it stands out from the surrounding architecture). Baudrillard is in no way writing about video games here.

As for Death Stranding being any sort of 'art' Kojima himself has claimed that video games are NOT art. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/news240106kojimaart

From the eurogamer article:
Kojima claims, "Art is something that radiates the artist, if 100 people walk by and a single person is captivated by whatever that piece radiates, it's art. But videogames aren't trying to capture one person. A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play that game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame. It's something of a service. It's not art. But I guess the way of providing service with that videogame is an artistic style, a form of art."

People who claim that Death Stranding is difficult to understand by virtue of it being art, or that people who dislike Death Stranding are disliking it because it is outside their ken, are simply click-baiting. Since Death Stranding is a video game, a product explicitly created for mass appeal, it cannot be elitist or high culture by definition. Although your education, experience and taste may factor into the 'legibility' or 'accessibility' of Death Stranding, that has less to do with the product than with the one 'experiencing' it.

Like Kojima claims "an actual car, like a videogame, is interactive, so it's something used by people, so it's like a car where you have to drive it. There are 100 people driving a car; they have 100 ways of driving it and using it. It could be families driving the car. It could be a couple driving a car. The owner of the car could be driving along the coastline or they could go up into the mountains, so this car has to be able to be driven by all 100 of these people, so in that sense, it's totally not art."
Last edited by Holografix; Nov 21, 2019 @ 4:48pm
Its fun to see people take the bait on the other side.

This is the polar oppsite but also exact same as a thread like "This is the worst game ever" and just like clockwork the fishies come biting.
Shadowi Nov 21, 2019 @ 7:52pm 
it bad
cowwadoody good
:poop:

Originally posted by Killance:
Game is bad and the director himself doesn't understand this game.

It isn't art. It's a mess.
it's for people who send death threats because kojima didn't notice them. UwU
Last edited by Shadowi; Nov 21, 2019 @ 7:54pm
That is a most unfortunate choice of text to quote from, given what is said about modern art and its role. It is not art, it is not culture, it is simulation thereof, it is the case of that system under which it is subsumed positing a similacrum of art and of culture in order to affirm itself.
Holografix Nov 21, 2019 @ 11:03pm 
Originally posted by Retardo The Barbarian:
That is a most unfortunate choice of text to quote from, given what is said about modern art and its role. It is not art, it is not culture, it is simulation thereof, it is the case of that system under which it is subsumed positing a similacrum of art and of culture in order to affirm itself.

Video gaming culture needs creators like Kojima to remind themselves that what they participate in is nothing more than a plebeian simulation of pleasure. What is more pleb than video game fetch quests? A game that simulates fetch quests.

At least Kojima understands that the bedrock of video gaming, the currency with which most video games traffic in, is the ubiquitous +XP fetch quest. By simulating it and making it the focus of an entire game, he exposes the utter lunacy of video game culture through the fun-house mirror of his inimitable style. And he makes it fun too. The man is a genius.
Last edited by Holografix; Nov 21, 2019 @ 11:13pm
Nexeos Nov 22, 2019 @ 12:04am 
Originally posted by The Moshman:
Or to art diminishing itself in order to have universal appeal.
I don't mean to troll. By definition, high culture is elitist and thus its works cannot have mass appeal. Or as Jean Baudrillard writes;

"In any case, the very ideology of "cultural production" is antithetical to all culture, as is that of visibility and of the polyvalent space: culture is a site of the secret, of seduction, of initiation, of a restrained and highly ritualized symbolic exchange. Nothing can be done about it. Too bad for the masses."
That's exrremely pretentious. Might be the most pretentious thing I've ever heard.
Agent Cooper Nov 22, 2019 @ 12:11am 
The problem here is that the system doesn't allow for any outside criticism. The museum in that article basically integrates any supposedly critical, transgressive, countercultural works, making them worse than toothless, having them contribute to its perpetuating of itself.
Which is what is happening to this game, really. So he produces an ironic similacrum displaying the vacuousness and lunacy of what is taken for granted. Doesn't matter, it will be integrated.

This is kinda hard to talk of, but you can say that the best you can hope for is to contribute to the implosion. You cannot really point outside of the system, so you can only produce further simulation of simulation (of simulation of simulation of simulation...) untill the thing implodes on itself.
Originally posted by Agent Cooper:
.
you can only produce further simulation of simulation (of simulation of simulation of simulation...) untill the thing implodes on itself.
Which is what Kojima is conciously doing here.

Btw, this whole thing is as Baudrillardian as any game I can think of. Just look at how the whole idea of 'America' is treated down to what the president's iconic office is.
DeVo35 Nov 22, 2019 @ 2:31am 
Indeed
Hoxilicious Nov 22, 2019 @ 12:50pm 
Originally posted by Killance:
Game is bad and the director himself doesn't understand this game.

It isn't art. It's a mess.
This.

THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!
Holografix Nov 22, 2019 @ 2:52pm 
Originally posted by Retardo The Barbarian:
Originally posted by Agent Cooper:
.
you can only produce further simulation of simulation (of simulation of simulation of simulation...) untill the thing implodes on itself.
Which is what Kojima is conciously doing here.

Btw, this whole thing is as Baudrillardian as any game I can think of. Just look at how the whole idea of 'America' is treated down to what the president's iconic office is.
I wonder what you think of Simcity or the Civilization games which are far more Baudrillardian than any of Kojima's games.
What should I think of them... Are they so in that they exemplify his theory, simulacra in miniature? But are their creators concious of them as such or are we merely talking of them as objects of philosophy?
I think Kojima concious od what he is doing but you may say that he isn't, needn't be, is irrelevant if he is or isn't.
I am to blame for talking in a way that implicitly posits a hierarchy of simulacra when there cannot be one by default at this stage (where is the difference, the distance, the relation).
NASTY CORNDOG Nov 23, 2019 @ 6:04am 
Modern Art; it's sh¡t, disguised as 'art'
Last edited by NASTY CORNDOG; Nov 23, 2019 @ 6:05am
Holografix Nov 23, 2019 @ 8:41am 
Originally posted by Retardo The Barbarian:
What should I think of them... Are they so in that they exemplify his theory, simulacra in miniature? But are their creators concious of them as such or are we merely talking of them as objects of philosophy?
I think Kojima concious od what he is doing but you may say that he isn't, needn't be, is irrelevant if he is or isn't.
I am to blame for talking in a way that implicitly posits a hierarchy of simulacra when there cannot be one by default at this stage (where is the difference, the distance, the relation).
I suppose the Civ games have come to exemplify Baudrillard's theory only so far as their 'game logic' enters our real world. For example, how the different Civ factions (America, Egypt etc..) can be used as referent for a discussion about 'who is the greatest civ.' The games can be used to prove the point of a civilization's real life success or failure.

i usually dislike making a Baudrillardian reading or high theory reading of anything, since the conceptual language is often very complex and lots of precision is needed to make a 'good' argument. i think is it fair to claim that making a Baudrillardian reading of Death Stranding is at best forced as Kojima's work doesn't actually lend itself easily to such theory.
Last edited by Holografix; Nov 23, 2019 @ 10:12am
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