My Sorcerer MC is just support

[Jorge_S]

I am playing at Hard difficulty, sage sorcerer.
I am currently near the end of Act 2

problem: my spells are a bit underwhelming during combat, I feel like a secondary character, not the leader.

Basically, in ACT 2 I am finding too many enemies that are immune to ACT 1 winners like grease, glitterdust, fireball, etc plus very high spell resistance and either immunity to fire, poison, ice, etc
End result is that I had to refocus my MC's spells on buffs to the party so that it can survive and hit enemies (spells like: Haste, Mirror Image, Displace, Greater Invisibility. That way, while I am not doing a lot of damage (other than a weak magic missile or equivalent each turn, at least I am helping the other guys to survive damage (Displace) or shoot more often (Haste) or actually hit the high AC enemies (Greater Invisibility).

Any winning Level 3 or 4 spells I am missing? something that can hurt the tough demon gargoyle hunters? or that can be good against bosses?

Important to say, I am doing OK, with haste + mirror image + Greater Invisibility I can more or less survive and win tough fights, it is just the feeling that my MC is underwhelming.

[Mr Fred]

Welcome to games with actual depth to it. If it was dnd 5e you couldnt stack buffs because its too hard to track for the casual masses and your caster would play exactly like a fighter at lower lvl.

[Uzkin]

My demon blaster caster started as a controller/support and then switched to dealing damage in Act 3.

Now in Act 5, she's a powerhouse damage dealer. So much so that the fights get a bit boring. For a while now, she's been able to one-shot any fight (boss or trash) on Core difficulty, as long as I choose to spend the required spells. I briefly switched to Unfair in Iz to see how she does vs. unfair Deskari, and she one-shot him as well, so I guess this blaster build is viable even on unfair.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2923414393

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2889422540

[pete3great]

Цитата допису Uzkin:

My demon blaster caster started as a controller/support and then switched to dealing damage in Act 3.

Now in Act 5, she's a powerhouse damage dealer. So much so that the fights get a bit boring. For a while now, she's been able to one-shot any fight (boss or trash) on Core difficulty, as long as I choose to spend the required spells. I briefly switched to Unfair in Iz to see how she does vs. unfair Deskari, and she one-shot him as well, so I guess this blaster build is viable even on unfair.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2923414393

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2889422540

Well, what's the build?

[Uzkin]

Цитата допису pete3great:

Well, what's the build?

ES16 / XBlooded1 / LM3

[Blue]

Unless you're very familiar with the rules, you should probably not be playing above Core. Core is the "balanced" difficulty level for the game, and it's already quite hard for new pathfinder players.

As for Sage Sorc, it's definitely not the most powerful archetype and most casters don't truly come online until lvl 11-12. After that, they start feeling very powerful. If you're not going Lich, then I suggest Azata for a pure Sorc. The power where all enemies have to rolls saving throws twice and take the worst one goes a long way. Make sure you're fully up on your spell penetration feats (spell pen, greater spell pen, mythic spell pen), wearing the +4 pen robes, etc.

You should also focus on one or two schools for increased DC. Illusion is very good, with phatasmal web, phantasmal killer and weird. As an azata with high DC and spell pen, a single cast of phantasmal killer can kill most bosses in chapter 3 and 4. Rays with touch AC are your friend. As an Azata Sorc, you can really destroy hard encounters like Playful Darkness.

Low levels are never very intesting with a pure caster.

[Kinoringan]

Did you put points into int stat? Since you are a sage sorcerer.
Did you take spell focus/greater spell focus?
Did you take spell penetration/greater spell penetration?
Did you take arcane focus? Assuming you are an elf?
Did you take ascendant element?
Do you have items that increase your spell dc/sp/cl ?

at the start of act 2, you should have an item called the convenant of the inheritor (after getting the storyteller to fix it). DO NOT give it to the queen. This alone increase your cl=2, just put the item in your belt

When you reach act 3, you can buy items that will increase your dc/sp and + damage to your spells.

Good level 3 and 4 blaster spell would be fireball and controlled fireball.

[Jorge_S]

MC is a lawful good elf Sage Sorcerer, level 8, mythic 2, as already said, playing Hard difficulty

I am right now at the beginning of Drezen; everything else in chapter 2 is cleaned up (Lepers, gargoyle cave, chapel, mini bosses (Lich, pain connoseur, the undead big tigers, tough demons),

Stats:
St 7, Dex 20, Con 11, Int 21, Wis 10, Cha 7

Feats:
Spell focus, Greater spell focus Conjuration
Spell Penetration, Greater spell Penetration
Spell focus in Evocation
Metamagic - Selective

I decided not to spend feats on point blank shot/ precise shot, therefore MC is a blind squirrel in terms of hitting anything, I probably will skip ranged spells and focus on area control + buffs

Mythic Path:
Close to Heaven/ Summon Paladin
Last Stand
Mythic spell focus in Conjuration

equipment used: red salamander, headband +2 Int, silver robe, lucky bracers, blaze of disaster, quarterstaff of coercion, purple stone knife, covenant of the inheritor, lesser maximize matamagic rod, cat

spells:
L1: Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Burning Hands, Summon Monster1
L2: Create Pit, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Grease (selective), Invisibility
L3: Create Pit (selective), Dispel Magic, Haste, Displacement
L4: Greater Invisibility
Red salamander: Fireball, Controlled Fireball

The MC is kind of weak, but he is complementing the party well with things like Greater invisibility, haste and displacement. it is also good against controlling humans and undead (e.g. selective grease) and can be good at killing minions with salamander's fireballs.
Summon Paladin has also helped a lot; There is a really tough fight in the chapel that becomes really easy with the paladin (as he is immune to the demons' attacks)
In terms of spells chosen, I only have regrets on Glitterdust and Create Pit. I should had chosen something else, the rest I think are solid

[ptirodaktill]

In wrath, triple bloodline sorc intro AT came online at lvl 7 and start to shine at lvl 9, when you get third scorching ray . AoE spells suck till you maximise and empower them, but get reasonable dmg around lvl 11. CC work fine right from the begining if you know how to make it work =)

[ptirodaktill]

You should skip point blank and precise shot even on ray caster, cause you willl use True strike early on, and later on your AB would outpace enemy AC, so these feats are useless to you anyway.
Get heightened metamagic to make use of grease for a little longer. Make sure you spec intro Loremaster to get Command. Don`t touch Illusion and Enchantment feats, cause you must abuse expended arsenal to make then worthwile.

[MjKorz]

Цитата допису ptirodaktill:

You should skip point blank and precise shot even on ray caster, cause you willl use True strike early on

Used to be true, but now it's not. True Strike used to last through ray attacks, because a ray was not considered an attack and you could get 24s of +20 attack bonus on your rays by extending True Strike. This was fixed in a patch and now True Strike gets expended on a single ray attack, meaning that only one of three rays in a cast of Scorching/Hellfire Ray will get the attack bonus while the other two won't and the spell effect will be consumed.

The loss of +5 attack bonus from lack of Precise Shot and Point-blank shot on a 1/2 BAB character is no longer negligible and a ray caster has enough feats to take these feats anyway.

[Battler]

On hard and above AOE Mage will never do enough damage. I played my first playthrough on core with Azata, and threw 4 Chain Lightning with favorable magic (and various metamagic) per turn. And it wasn't OP at all. So now I'm playing either a ray mage (and one shot all the bosses) or Brown-For Transmitter (who is an ultimate support)

[ptirodaktill]

Цитата допису Battler:

On hard and above AOE Mage will never do enough damage. I played my first playthrough on core with Azata, and threw 4 Chain Lightning with favorable magic (and various metamagic) per turn. And it wasn't OP at all. So now I'm playing either a ray mage (and one shot all the bosses) or Brown-For Transmitter (who is an ultimate support)

Well you just build it wrong . https://youtu.be/Kw4L3G7v3Bo?list=PLFtJu4TtcFPlHJ-059syrce40esaj0vD2&t=184 That`s lvl 9, 2 empowered fireballs=end of trash encounter.
lvl 13 Ionghouse https://youtu.be/27NG6GtEsBE?list=PLFtJu4TtcFPlHJ-059syrce40esaj0vD2 oneshot with scorching ray, 2 hits with fire snake=end of encounter.
Valeksia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA85SJaVhT0&list=PLFtJu4TtcFPlHJ-059syrce40esaj0vD2&index=55 4 firestorms= end of encounter.
Lategame look like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XTEnSZjblI&list=PLFtJu4TtcFPlHJ-059syrce40esaj0vD2&index=62
And you can make it better =) Persistent metamagic with touch of glory abuse grant you enough DC(i didn`t use it). Later on Trickster trick persuation 2 paralyze entire screen, basicly deny reflex trow. You can convert Fortitude DC spells wia elemental specialist , like sonic spells to deny Evasion in midgame. ETC.

Цитата допису MjKorz:

Цитата допису ptirodaktill:

You should skip point blank and precise shot even on ray caster, cause you willl use True strike early on

Used to be true, but now it's not. True Strike used to last through ray attacks, because a ray was not considered an attack and you could get 24s of +20 attack bonus on your rays by extending True Strike. This was fixed in a patch and now True Strike gets expended on a single ray attack, meaning that only one of three rays in a cast of Scorching/Hellfire Ray will get the attack bonus while the other two won't and the spell effect will be consumed.

The loss of +5 attack bonus from lack of Precise Shot and Point-blank shot on a 1/2 BAB character is no longer negligible and a ray caster has enough feats to take these feats anyway.

In turn based you can make a 5 foot move to remove point blank penalty. And +1 AB from feat is quite a bad value for a feat. Also i tried to recall a lvl10+ encounter i needed that extra AB, and the only one that came in mind is Playfull darkness. IRC, she had 43 AC faltfooted/touch, my AB was around 38 w/o true strike at that moment. With 2 lucks on, its almost a guaranteed hit. IRC, i only casted true strike on scorching ray in 3 or 4 fights before Playfull darkness.

[MjKorz]

Цитата допису ptirodaktill:

In turn based you can make a 5 foot move to remove point blank penalty.

Not a solution, because you cannot perform a 5ft step after you move and attack. If your melees move into position to attack and lock down the enemies or pounce straight into a full round action attack, you cannot perform a 5ft step with those characters after and thus your caster will suffer a -4 attack penalty for trying to hit the targets those melee characters have engaged.

This means you have to purposefully delay the actions of your melees at the start of combat and if some enemy moves on top of your melees before they can act, you have to wait for those melees to get their action and move away before you can fire into the enemies that have engaged your melees. It's a gimped playstyle and meaningless jumping through hoops since you have enough feats for everything anyway, unless you're playing one of your gimpbuilds I've already dealt with lmao.

Цитата допису ptirodaktill:

And +1 AB from feat

It's not +1 attack bonus, it's +5 for 2 feats total without having to gimp the playstyle of your melees.

[Battler]

Цитата допису ptirodaktill:

In the first video, the chance of a fireball to break through the reaction was only 25%. Yes, even this was enough against a crowd of weaklings, but this is not an argument. They can be crushed in dozens of ways.
In 3rd video, its work of mystical trickster, not pure AOE mage. And it is clear that the reaction saving work perfectly again.
Yes. It's not useless (with help of 3 dragon bloodlines, some rings and belt, and so on), but not enough for me. In act 5 its ok, but... in act 5 you are so OP, that everything is Ok

[ptirodaktill]

Цитата допису Battler:

Цитата допису ptirodaktill:

In the first video, the chance of a fireball to break through the reaction was only 25%. Yes, even this was enough against a crowd of weaklings, but this is not an argument. They can be crushed in dozens of ways.
In 3rd video, its work of mystical trickster, not pure AOE mage. And it is clear that the reaction saving work perfectly again.
Yes. It's not useless (with help of 3 dragon bloodlines, some rings and belt, and so on), but not enough for me. In act 5 its ok, but... in act 5 you are so OP, that everything is Ok

What kind of argument do you need? The only purpose of these AoE spells is to clear trash. They clear even in mid game. Even with low DC. You can pump that DC with touch of glory and feats. I didn`t .
There is no pure AoE mage, cause you need extra Juice to deal dmg. Again, touch of glory and persistent metamagic and these saves no longer work. I didn`t use them. It still was enough to clear most encounters in 2 rounds. Didn`t even need the ray most of the time.
MjKorz call that build gimped, cause it only deal 5800 dmg per hellfire cast and 11600 per round instead of 100500 or whaver you can achive with brimorak triplecast elemental specialist.