As a cRPG this game often makes it difficult to actually do RP

[Randolph Carter]

So first of all, I have to say that Owlcat has probably made one of the best cRPGs I've ever played.

However, the game makes RP really hard sometimes. I've accumulated over 350h so far and haven't gotten past Act 3. This is partly because I have restartitis and want to try new builds and classes, but partly because the game often makes it really hard to RP properly with your PC. Then I get frustrated and try another RP approach.

I generally find that there are far too few dialogue options and story paths within quests or events to play a wider range of characters (RP wise).

In dialogues you often only have a choice between "I don't like you, die!", "Atone for your crimes!" (and die afterwards), "You poor thing, you have my utmost sympathy!", "Haha, [insert witty phrase]!" and "I don't care." - at least it feels like that. I would really like to see more nuanced options. These can also lead to the same result in the end, as long as you can choose options that fit your PC.

Also, sometimes happenings in events or quests are forced down your throat. In additon these are sometimes inconsistent in itself, too. This forces you to constantly do head-canon to somehow explain the events or justify the PCs actions in a RP context.

A quick example:

I play a Neutral/Chaotic Evil PC. Thinks only of himself, actually detests everyone, loves violence and is a bit sick in the head. (a bit like cross between Wenduag and Camellia) Ok, so far so good. My PC comes across Ember in Act 1 and wants the Crusaders to kill her because as I mentioned hes a lil sick & twisted. But since Seelah is in the party she intervenes and nothing can be done about it. The following dialogue options with the crusaders are then like if the PC himself had stood up for Ember. These option don't fit the PC at all and even with head-canon its hard to explain them. So I have to remove Seelah from the party beforehand or exclude the event completely from a RP context. Neither option is really great and this completely destroys my immersion.

Why can't you tell Seelah not to interfere? And if she doesn't take my PCs crap let her turn against him or leave the party, thats fine, too. Or at least let the PC reprimand her after the event or something. Let me intervene as a player and give me the opportunity to play my PC properly.

A few extra dialogue options and switching Seelah to "hostile" because she can't let the PC kill helpless Ember isn't super much effort, I'd argue.

But the most stupid thing is that you may kill Ember in the following conversation (when the crusaders are dead or gone) without Seelah saying a word. I even let her do the killing blow - no comment. This just completely dumb and is again immersion breaking :/

Would this be a single case, it wouldn't be so tragic, but these kind of things happen all the time.

Another example is Forn (the guy that hunts Kylessa or how shes called) - you can only get the quest for him if your PC is nice, polite, kind and basically imposes help on him. Why not implement a way for evil characters to get the quest from him? I want to play your content Owlcat, but oftetimes I can't because there is no reasoning or possibility for my PCs to do it RP wise. More nuanced options are the key here, too. I would even be satisfied if Forn would reject the PC and you would not get the quest from him either if you choose an evil option. At least then it would be coherent in an RP context and I wouldn't have to ignore him completely.

So again, I know I'm repeating myself: I would really like to see more nuanced ways and options for events or dialogues to unfold.

I think Pillars of Eternity did a much better job of that, for example. The aligment system, which is based on personality traits like aggressive, benevolent, clever, cruel, honest and many more, offered inherently more options and there was always a nuanced choice that I was happy with and that fit my character in a way. Much less head-canon involved, too. Also the mentioned traits are not as arbitrary and more narrowly defined than terms like "Lawful" or "Good".

Well, I think I'm done. Rant over, thanks for coming to my TED talk

[SmallGespenst]

Originalmente postado por Randolph Carter:

Yeah thats another thing which complicates the issue, because everyone has their own definitions of terms like lawful, good, neutral, chaotic etc.

that's a real world morality thing, this is a fantasy setting where the Alignments represent actual cosmic forces. Good, Evil, Chaotic and Lawful do have hard definitions, it's not a matter of subjective morals or ethics, these are tangible forces and you can get magic to detect or influence these things.

Originalmente postado por Randolph Carter:

I personally don't care what tags are in front of the dialog options. I choose what suits my PC best. It's only stupid if the alignment is related to game mechanics (hello paladins), but otherwise I don't care. Regarding the problems I mentioned, the alignment system itself is of rather secondary importance, too.

that's 100% the best way to do things, Alignment is one of those things that makes way more sense as a result of your actions rather than a guiding principal.
also I'm going to mention that the Paladin thing is explicitly not a problem in the tabletop, Paladins lose powers if they break their code (which include doing Evil acts by choice) and as long as they don't break their code any sane GM wouldn't try to say they're not sufficiently Lawful (Chaotic acts aren't forbidden, probably so that a Paladin won't be de-powered for freeing slaves~) so the only way they'd be a different alignment is if if specific magic was used.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originalmente postado por Randolph Carter:

Originalmente postado por SmallGespenst:

[...]

Yeah thats another thing which complicates the issue, because everyone has their own definitions of terms like lawful, good, neutral, chaotic etc.

I personally don't care what tags are in front of the dialog options. I choose what suits my PC best. It's only stupid if the alignment is related to game mechanics (hello paladins), but otherwise I don't care. Regarding the problems I mentioned, the alignment system itself is of rather secondary importance, too.

Same.
I turn of the dialog hints as i dont care for it.
Outside of class limits(one of the few good things of 5e.
Removing class limits)

I useally end up neutral evil in pathfinder wraith of the rightious.
But that is because i am a lich so..
I end up lawful good in neverwinter nights 2.
Something i have grown to love is to start as neutral and see where the game takes me.

[SmallGespenst]

Originalmente postado por Malaficus Shaikan:

Originalmente postado por SmallGespenst:

Actual sources are pretty explicit that even Pure Chaotic characters, as a rule, do not behave randomly. And the "chaotic will never build any lasting alliances" is pretty often disproven in texts, especially for Chaotic Good aligned forces that are often known for their lasting relationships and friendships. (Cayden Caliean, possibly the most archetypical Chaotic Good God even Ascended a few of his closest friends after he gained Divinity)

Whims are random.

Also i have yet to meet a chaotic player or character that didnt cause problems.

Cayden Caliean is a god.
And if i recall correctly gods are bound by rules.
More importantly he is the god of booze and being drunk.
I doubt most gods would even care about what he is doing.

Originalmente postado por Pathfinder Wiki:

Cailean particularly favors Desna, Sarenrae, and Shelyn (whom he enjoys serenading).[6] Torag shares the Lucky Drunk's love of ale, and the two have been known to compare human and dwarven brews on occasion.[2] Cayden also has a strong tie to the Taldan god Kurgess, whom legend claims was raised to godhood by Cayden and Desna himself.[7] Cayden is allied with Milani as well.[8] Both former mortals share similar views regarding personal freedom and his herald, Thais, uses a halberd borrowed from the half-elven goddess.

There, a list of the Gods Cayden actively gets along with. (funnily enough, the same number as Lawful Good Iomedae)
Pure Chaotic gods tend to have fewer friends, but Calistra does have a number of Gods she allies with.
not exactly telling of being unable to maintain bonds~

Originalmente postado por Malaficus Shaikan:

Keyword: intentionally.
They do so simply by being chaotic.

Chaotic is random because emotions and whims are random.
And while official a chaotic good character wants to help people laws be dammed.
A chaotic neutral just wants what is best for himself.
And chaotic evil is just: Murder is the least evil thing he does.

In my experiance every chaotic player play's the same lol random.
And i remind you that in this game we have the priest of desna:
Break the law.
Refuse to be held acountable for breaking in and proforming illiage magic's on the wardstone.
And every demon is chaotic evil.

Where you have the lawful good queen gaddfry and sheela the paladin.
The lawful evil devil.

Your chaotic ally is a murder psychopath or a baby dragon who thinks its ok to break in and eat the food in a inn without paying.

I swear chaotic is the worst alignment.
No sense of responiblity.

that sounds like you've been playing with people that only know how to play Chaotic as Chaotic stupid my dude, it's the equivalent of saying that every Lawful character is Judge Dredd or Robo-cop, an emotionless machine incapable of anything but executing the letter of the law, with barely enough agency to say a witty one-liner once a fight.

[omegazeda]

I don't know of any other CRPGs, apart from baldur's gate 2(even though in that game u start from level 6+), where you fight enemies with multiple DRs in their stats. It seems like the game expects you to power game from the getgo, unless you play on easy.

[Randolph Carter]

Originalmente postado por SmallGespenst:

Originalmente postado por Randolph Carter:

Yeah thats another thing which complicates the issue, because everyone has their own definitions of terms like lawful, good, neutral, chaotic etc.

that's a real world morality thing, this is a fantasy setting where the Alignments represent actual cosmic forces. Good, Evil, Chaotic and Lawful do have hard definitions, it's not a matter of subjective morals or ethics, these are tangible forces and you can get magic to detect or influence these things.

Interesting, so basically you treat the whole aligment thing like mechanics? Or rather "lore" than actual ethics and stuff? Hm.. I never thought of it that way. Then it makes even more sense not to pay attention to the tags in dialog options - at least if your alignment doesn't affect gameplay.

[SmallGespenst]

Originalmente postado por Randolph Carter:

Originalmente postado por SmallGespenst:

that's a real world morality thing, this is a fantasy setting where the Alignments represent actual cosmic forces. Good, Evil, Chaotic and Lawful do have hard definitions, it's not a matter of subjective morals or ethics, these are tangible forces and you can get magic to detect or influence these things.

Interesting, so basically you treat the whole aligment thing like mechanics? Or rather "lore" than actual ethics and stuff? Hm.. I never thought of it that way. Then it makes even more sense not to pay attention to the tags in dialog options - at least if your alignment doesn't affect gameplay.

yup. Alignment is basically just an estimate of how the character measures in terms of cosmic forces, I'm not exactly sure if being of a certain alignment basically guarantees a specific judgement from Phasmara, but given that her job is could be boiled down to sorting souls by alignment it'd make sense~

[Randolph Carter]

Originalmente postado por omegazeda:

I don't know of any other CRPGs, apart from baldur's gate 2(even though in that game u start from level 6+), where you fight enemies with multiple DRs in their stats. It seems like the game expects you to power game from the getgo, unless you play on easy.

Wrong thread or did I miss something?

[Azure-Ghost]

On a note of rarely companions leaving the party.
I think that might have to do with complains about just that in other games where some players felt to forced into bending their own character to the will of the companions in order to not have someone leave, an issue that stems from the low available amount of "real" companions .I.e. if you want to play with fully written companions, you are sort of shoehorned into a specific character play by the availability of party members as else you would lose access to certain classes.

On the Alignment discussion. Lawful does not have to do with law itself it just means you follow certain rules to the letter. Those could be the Laws of a Country, the rules of an Order to belong to or a codex that you made up yourself. An Assassin on a seemingly random killing spree hired by some thugs as a distraction might still be lawful as long as they strictly follow their own code of things like never talking about their employers, never harming children or whatever else they have made up their mind thinking was worthy following.

The Reason why Paladins usually lose their power when not following their alignment in crpgs comes from a simplified system. Alternatively they would have to implement orders and check for each single order in every and all action of the players paladin if they did not break their code. Something that is both alot of work and makes the class very inaccessable to casuals since they have to read up the whole codex and follow it in order of not getting stripped of their rank and powers.
The Reason why certain classes lose their power is that those powers don't come from within them self but are bestowed by greater powers who have their own rules who and why they lend some of theirs. Don't act in the interest of the power that gave you yours and they might just take it back. The difference here between chaotic and lawful is that lawful ones have a written set of rules to follow while chaotic ones more of a vague Idea like the god stands who stands for revenge doesn't care how exactly you fullfill your oath of taking revenge, just that you do it while a lawful god wants you to do it while following their rules.

[Zloth]

Originalmente postado por Randolph Carter:

I understand that it's not possible to create dozens of branching paths with different outcomes each time and that in a cRPG as opposed to a real P&P session, you simply have to accept certain limitations.

Yeah.... except.... there's an X factor.

Sandbox games seem to actually give you more role playing opportunities than RPGs. Instead of having The Plot that you WILL go through, they set up a world with various mechanics, leaving the player free to do all sorts of different things to pursue different goals. With that freedom, you can role play very different people.

For instance, I've probably done my best role playing in Egosoft's X series of games. (Yes, I threw a pun at you above and didn't tell you what it was until you swallowed it. I'm a special kind of evil.) The X games are in no way any sort of RPG, but they do give you several options to make money: trading, mercenary, taxiing people around, mining, setting up space stations, pirating, and in any combination. That freedom let me set up a character and really act on that character's motivations. It's still not Pen & Paper level role playing, but it does seem to get me closer than the RPG genre.

I wonder if RPGs could go more sandbox-style? Kenshi seemed to be doing it, but I had a hard time getting into that game.

[Quillithe]

Originalmente postado por Zloth:

Originalmente postado por Randolph Carter:

I understand that it's not possible to create dozens of branching paths with different outcomes each time and that in a cRPG as opposed to a real P&P session, you simply have to accept certain limitations.

Yeah.... except.... there's an X factor.

Sandbox games seem to actually give you more role playing opportunities than RPGs. Instead of having The Plot that you WILL go through, they set up a world with various mechanics, leaving the player free to do all sorts of different things to pursue different goals. With that freedom, you can role play very different people.

For instance, I've probably done my best role playing in Egosoft's X series of games. (Yes, I threw a pun at you above and didn't tell you what it was until you swallowed it. I'm a special kind of evil.) The X games are in no way any sort of RPG, but they do give you several options to make money: trading, mercenary, taxiing people around, mining, setting up space stations, pirating, and in any combination. That freedom let me set up a character and really act on that character's motivations. It's still not Pen & Paper level role playing, but it does seem to get me closer than the RPG genre.

I wonder if RPGs could go more sandbox-style? Kenshi seemed to be doing it, but I had a hard time getting into that game.

Yeah, there's always an innate struggle between a linear plot and roleplaying - so that the most free roleplaying comes from sandbox games with minimal plot.

In exchange for which, you don't have a good plot.

[Azure-Ghost]

Originalmente postado por Zloth:

Originalmente postado por Randolph Carter:

I understand that it's not possible to create dozens of branching paths with different outcomes each time and that in a cRPG as opposed to a real P&P session, you simply have to accept certain limitations.

Yeah.... except.... there's an X factor.

Sandbox games seem to actually give you more role playing opportunities than RPGs. Instead of having The Plot that you WILL go through, they set up a world with various mechanics, leaving the player free to do all sorts of different things to pursue different goals. With that freedom, you can role play very different people.

For instance, I've probably done my best role playing in Egosoft's X series of games. (Yes, I threw a pun at you above and didn't tell you what it was until you swallowed it. I'm a special kind of evil.) The X games are in no way any sort of RPG, but they do give you several options to make money: trading, mercenary, taxiing people around, mining, setting up space stations, pirating, and in any combination. That freedom let me set up a character and really act on that character's motivations. It's still not Pen & Paper level role playing, but it does seem to get me closer than the RPG genre.

I wonder if RPGs could go more sandbox-style? Kenshi seemed to be doing it, but I had a hard time getting into that game.

I too liked the Egosoft X-Games though i preffered the earlier ones which were a bit more story driven.
On the Maintopic to those games. They don't even have the issues the OP has with this game as there is no real choice of dialogue to begin with, you just act without actively interacting with other characters outside of a very shallow level.

[Combat Wombat]

They tell you what the main plot line for the game is in the product description; to buy such a game only to not play it sounds rather bizarre to me.

Believable characters will respond to your actions; if they do not like you they will not do business with you. Breaking from that pattern reduces the suspension-of-disbelief factor, (the characters are just some kind of bot) something that is important to this type of game.

Instead of writing to multiple responses to keeping Ember alive, they would only need the one most likely to get used - where the player does the saving. Choosing to start a fight with Seleena because you want to watch them kill Ember sounds like, oh I don't know, something they would not have thought of to write.