Which guns?

[dudeworthington]

In my last campaign I built covettes with a point defense and nose coilgun. So in my current campaign I have green arc lasers and coilguns and getting ready to replace my missile boats. I was considering using battleships as patrol vessels and came up with this:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3154342321

Going nearly all coils and using less than the largest size (that is, 2 hardpoint coil cannon and 4 hardpoint heavy coil battery) would, so my thinking goes, put more bullets in the air and thus put more pressure on the enemy point defense. The timing of the batteries would not be synchronized with the nose weapons, but there still might be some synergy there. I could lean even further into the concept and put 4 (single hardpoint) light coil batteries in place of the 2 coil batteries.

This has tension with a competing idea: use both lasers and coils. As everyone knows, laser weapons always hit but are weak against armor at range. While this puts less bullets in the air, if the coils hit and presumably damage the armor the lasers could get to work. Under this configuration I would probably go with with the largest laser battery and 2 nose light coil cannons. But you could just as easily go with nose lasers and coil batteries. This raises the question out of the huge variety of weapon classes and sizes, how do you know which is best?

And should I just stick with corvettes for a while?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3154394514

[Pawleus]

Having this kind of drive (providing so low amount of deltaV) I would stay with missile Escorts as with proper missile tactics they would still be much more cost-effective than anything else (eg. for the Base Metal cost of your Battleship you can have 7 Lancehead Escorts that are much better armored and can be much, much more effective in combat - although with this drive it would be something like 5 Escorts).

Later on (when you have drives that can provide deltaV at least in hundreds km/s) I would still suggest to forget about anything larger than Destroyer and stay with Corvettes similar to your design (just much better armored and with 60cm UV Phaser instead of PD) until you win the game with tactics similar to shown here: https://imgur.com/a/z46ikCR or https://imgur.com/a/mGNPW7K

Your reasoning about laser/coil combo is flawed - before projectiles hit the target, as you said, lasers won't usually work as the distance to too large but when projectiles start hitting there is no need for lasers in offense (because projectiles are obviously getting through enemy PD and are much more powerful) and they are then usually needed in defense, anyway (when they are not needed they are just unnecessarily using your energy reserves or are basically a useless dead weight).

[dudeworthington]

Originally posted by Pawleus:

Having this kind of drive (providing so low amount of deltaV) I would stay with missile Escorts as with proper missile tactics they would still be much more cost-effective than anything else (eg. for the Base Metal cost of your Battleship you can have 7 Lancehead Escorts that are much better armored and can be much, much more effective in combat).

I like missiles but the ammo runs out (even with magazines). As an weapon for delivery a lot of damage in a short period of time they are amazing, but the trade off is can't fight for very long. It would be possible to build a 2nd generation missile boat, perhaps one capable of running away after its missiles are spent, but I like the idea of having ships that can wage longer battles.

[Pawleus]

Missile Escorts can be so powerful (but not with magazines - even on Monitors they just make them less combat-capable, not more) that if you do everything right there is no need for long battles because there is no enemy ships left after their alpha-stike run - their running away is not from enemy ships but from enemy missiles and projectiles. However, you are right that 2nd generation missile Escorts (eg. with Fission Spinner or Pegasus or just late spiked Adv Pulsar - Adv Fission drives can also work but Escorts with them are more expensive in Base Metal) should be capable of running away and disengaging even from 4G Alien Corvettes in case you did something wrong or you were very, very unlucky.

[dudeworthington]

Originally posted by Pawleus:

Missile Escorts can be so powerful (but not with magazines - even on Monitors they just make them less combat-capable, not more) that if you do everything right there is no need for long battles because there is no enemy ships left after their alpha-stike run - their running away is not from enemy ships but from enemy missiles and projectiles. However, you are right that 2nd generation missile Escorts (eg. with Fission Spinner or Pegasus or just late spiked Adv Pulsar - Adv Fission drives can also work but Escorts with them are more expensive in Base Metal) should be capable of running away and disengaging even from 4G Alien Corvettes in case you did something wrong or you were very, very unlucky.

Interesting. Do you have any designs you could share? Perhaps mid and late game designs? Do you ever go to larger ship sizes?

[Pawleus]

I usually don't go to ship sizes larger than Destroyer as my favorate way of fighting in the late game is by using highly maneuverable walls and Destroyer is the largest size suitable for them. Large ships are also too long to build for my taste and too expensive in relation to their usefulness, currently.

Here you could see my designs:

1. Solid Core line of missile Escorts (the cheapest, earliest and can be made guaranteed but for a mature design you need Spikers so you can have a mature design of the Molten Core line much faster, currently)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160867934
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160868784
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160868474

2. Molten Core line of missile Escorts (most recommended if you are lucky to unlock the drives as they are sill very cheap in research and mined resources - good alternatives to it are not available until drives from the Adv Fission line (like Firestar) which are much more expensive both in research and mined resources needed for ships)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160868717
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160868668
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160868607
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160868543

3. Late game designs for highly maneuverable walls (standard one has 20 Corvettes and 5 Destroyers)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160868409
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3160868212
Since acquiring techs for the creation of highly maneuverable walls I could remove all alien presence from the Solar System within a year (including time for building ships) - I don't think it's possible to achieve with large ships.

Edit: You might ask, why the mature solid core design still has Vipers as missiles? Ships without any heat sink have to be almost exactly tail to the enemy (to reduce a chance of being hit in their radiators) most of the time they are in range of its weapons (laser/plasma) so they won't be able to avoid alien torpedoes (it would still be possible to avoid Jewels) in their escaping maneuver and they have to reserve some Viper missiles for their anti-missile role - Lanceheads don't have this option so you need Vipers or you need to accept losses (I wasn't accepting them for role-playing purposes despite such ships are dirt cheap)

[dudeworthington]

Originally posted by Pawleus:

snip

Thanks! I noticed your final design uses Olympus nukes. Among advanced missile systems is this the way to go? This has the same parent technology as the lancehands (among a dozen or so other engineering projects), I'm just wondering what would make someone choose one rather than another (beyond the obvious considerations of damage and magazine capacity)? Since none of the more advanced missiles have a defense option, what would make someone choose to lanceheads over olympus (or any of the other types under the same parent technology)? Have you have ever been tempted to go to a different ship class to support the antimatter torpedoes?

[Pawleus]

Lanceheads are currently the most universal adv missiles - they can be used effectively both against small and large targets. Torpedoes, especially nuke and antimatter ones, have too low maneuverability to be effective against nimble targets. Olympus torpedoes are destructive enough against anything so I see no reason to use antimatter ones.

[g0815krieger]

Originally posted by Pawleus:

Lanceheads are currently the most universal adv missiles - they can be used effectively both against small and large targets. Torpedoes, especially nuke and antimatter ones, have too low maneuverability to be effective against nimble targets. Olympus torpedoes are destructive enough against anything so I see no reason to use antimatter ones.

Worthless against bigger alien fleets.
In my playthrough as Exous I had to fight a bigger alien fleet and just want to destroy at least one or two of their ships, befor they wipe me out.
Over 2000 Lanceheads fired (not salvo, shoot all as long you can !!!)
None hit its target !
Alien fleets with 8 or more ships simply have to much point defense to hit them with missles.

[Pawleus]

Originally posted by g0815krieger:

Over 2000 Lanceheads fired (not salvo, shoot all as long you can !!!)

You only provided recipe for making them worthless, nothing more. I've seen many battles (not just mine) against more than 15 alien ships and Lanceheads are certainly very far from worthless even in large battles if you use proper missile tactics.

[Asuzu]

After gazillion experiments, my best design that tears apart everything on sight is Dakka Dread with all 1-slot coilguns and a few PDs. That's literally a flying minigun. It's an ~60dV orbital patrol defense ship, I run packs of 6-8 for every major planet with my mining on.

The sheer amount of coils flying towards the enemy is staggering, and impossible to screen with any PD. It rips a one to anything from small ships to motherships and stations. Full Dakka mode on. Deletes fleets 5x their size.

Later on move on to the Dakka Titans for extra modules like repair bays, more troopers for assaults, etc. Now these guys feature antimatter drives that can take them anywhere to bring it to the allys.

Here's the fits: https://imgur.com/a/vFZ57K1

[Pawleus]

Originally posted by Asuzu:

The sheer amount of coils flying towards the enemy is staggering, and impossible to screen with any PD.

Any PD? Really? Have you even tried it against your own Dread but with 8 60cm UV Phasers? It's easy in the Skirmish.

I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that your Dread is more expensive in Basic Metals than 16 Escorts of mature molten core design I shown and just 2 of them can easily destroy it in the high speed attack run, probably without losses, despite not having any PD and despite lower techs used in their design.

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by Pawleus:

Originally posted by Asuzu:

The sheer amount of coils flying towards the enemy is staggering, and impossible to screen with any PD.

Any PD? Really? Have you even tried it against your own Dread but with 8 60cm UV Phasers? It's easy in the Skirmish.

I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that your Dread is more expensive in Basic Metals than 16 Escorts of mature molten core design I shown and just 2 of them can easily destroy it in the high speed attack run, probably without losses, despite not having any PD and despite lower techs used in their design.

Tried and tested against ally fleets up to 5x power, and alien stations. What else do you need?

What is the point of Escorts? Can they assault alien base? Anything? Carry troops? Fight 5x their power? They are cheaper, yes, but what is the point of an early game ship design in the game which does not have any "early" game? Early assault on aliens is a suicidal waste of resources. Just chill and research until your big fleets come out.

[Pawleus]

I can't believe we are returning to this, again and again: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1176470/discussions/1/4140564026495706742/?ctp=3#c4140564315468309474

Is your memory that short or you are just trolling?

2 Escorts can defeat your "optimal" Dread and you somehow think they are a waste of resources in the early game, especially in the situation when I told you many times and showed examples that they could fight the early Total War almost without losses.

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by Pawleus:

I can't believe we are returning to this, again and again: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1176470/discussions/1/4140564026495706742/?ctp=3#c4140564315468309474

Is your memory that short or you are just trolling?

2 Escorts can defeat your "optimal" Dread and you somehow think they are a waste of resources in the early game, especially in the situation when I told you many times and showed examples that they could fight the early Total War almost without losses.

Oh right, the guy with playtime 3x less than mine teaching me how to fit the ships.
Whatever, lost interest in this discussion.

[Pawleus]

Only psychic could really know what my playtime is (although I already told you that by my estimation it is much longer than what you claim is yours) but by dismissing knowledge of other players you learn nothing - this is perhaps one of reasons why you still have so much to learn about the game that even after your claimed 1000h you eg. feel forced to give your ships under AI control once your combat starts. What's funny is that you recommend this not-learning experience to other players.

Anyway, much of what was said in this thread is irrelevant in 0.4.1