32 heat is just bad design

[Snobby Hobo]

I know this is the ultimate end-game challenge, but honestly it's just absolutely miserable. 8 and 16 heat are completely fair respectively, but 32 crosses the line by an extreme margin.

The reason is very simple: 32 heat forces you to stack several disadvantages that strongly enhance one another, resulting in a slot-machine experience at every turn. The whole game comes apart at this point and a once fun game becomes a huge frustration.

First of all you can't really take the +40% movement speed/attack speed pact for it reduces the attack windows by 40%, and further makes some enemies absolutely insanely difficult to get rid of (Elysium heroes). This is, from my experience, by far the hardest pact of them all, including the third phase Hades pact.

Taking away boon options is straightforward: it does nothing but make the RNG worse. Instead of actually offering a challenge this is a downright "here have some no-fun!" modifier. This stacks with the fact that you will lose re-rolls from the mirror also. Boons turn into slot machines with bad odds in an already difficult game.

The timer, oh boy the timer. This pact becomes literally impossible when the other pacts decide it's time for your daily dose of bad RNG. Stack it with additional health, armored perks or god forbid additional speed and the game becomes unironically literally impossible to beat.

Additional health and armored perks turn the game in a chore. I recall getting a +60% enemies chaos boon on the first layer, then the next room it spawned armorered wretches. It took me 6! minutes to clear this room with max additional health, max enemy armored perks and max additional spawns. That's 66% of the time you get for the lowest rank of the death timer. Is there anyone who enjoys playing "sit in a corner and hold left mouse button for 10 minutes"?

I know this post is partially just venting but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 32 heat is absolutely zero fun.

[BoogieBoX]

The 32 heat challenge is the most difficult challenge the game has to offer and most likely the very last achievement you'll get. So by design, it is supposed to require a combination of skill, preparation, and (a lot of) luck. Dozens of runs may be needed, with around 75% of them not giving you a good enough build.

There are a few guides here and there, and from what I gathered, Chaos Aegis and Guan Yu Spear seem to be the go to choices, but it's been done with all aspects so it's definitely not impossible, given, once again, a lot of luck and perseverance.

[Loomi]

I did manage to get my heat 32 win, but I do agree with you that it is not fun. That being said, any game that uses a scaling difficulty is bound to become unfun for people at some point. Good thing running heat 32 has no gameplay rewards besides an ugly statue and (maybe?) a steam achievement.

[Darth Bokeh]

I did this yesterday. I had been incrementallty increasing heat with each weapon (always selecting the Dark Thirst weapon) and decided to have a go at it after I got 2 weapons to 20 heat. I tackled it in 2 phases.

The first was a series of shorter runs (about 7) in which I tried out various weapons and heat settings to see which felt the best and find which I had the highest chance of success with. If a combination didn't seem to be working, I selected "Give Up" and started again. Once I found a combination I wanted to run with, I played it through to the death. This second phase took me 3 attempts.

I found it really tough as well and, like you, I don't enjoy playing it at this difficulty either, but I wouldn't call it bad design. You aren't expected to play at that level repeatedly and it's entirely optional. The game challenges you to do it once and it's just a cosmetic reward with some dialogue (rather than a helpful reward like Titan Blood or story progression). If the game made it a goal to do it repeatedly (like once with each weapon or aspect) I'd be pretty pissed off, but for me, once is fine.

Everything you've said about the heat conditions is true but part of the challenge is to find a combination that works for you - selecting conditions and a weapon that minimize the compounding effect. It's like a puzzle.

Here's how I handled each of the things you had difficulty with (I encounted the same problems). If you want the challenge of figuring it out a workable build for yourself, don't read further.

+40% speed (Forced Overtime 2) - yeah, I find this to be one of the toughest conditions. When it's combined with Extreme Measures 3 (EM3) it makes Asterius' charge much tougher to handle. In normal (up to 20 heat) runs I never go higher than FO1 (at that level, I might still take some hits but it doesn't sink my run). So what makes his charge a non-issue? The shield. He charges you? Just face him and block it. I didn't select the shield for only this reason, but it definitely made this fight much easier than if I didn't use it.

As a side note, I actually find EM3 easier than the non-EM versions because with EM3, Theseus is easily avoided and you can kill him more quickly in his final stage. You also have the option of easily fighting either Theseus or Asterius one at a time rather than both at once - either chase Theseus around the arena (Asterius isn't much of a problem as he follows you) or avoid Theseus' path and fight Asterius first.

Boon options - I took the first level of each that you mentioned (Routine Inspection 1 and Approval Process 1). I also took Underworld Customs (sell a boon to exit a biome). To compensate I ran with a simple, reliable build that is effective in the early game (before I had enough darkness to put points deep in the mirror). This was Ares and Aphrodite on Attack and Special (those 2 gods because it met Privileged Status requirements immediately and has a great duo, if I could find it). Ideally Ares would be on Special and Aphrodite on Attack but I got the reverse and it worked fine for me. So the whole build relies on getting just 2 boons. If I could also get Athena's Dash (which I did) and the Ares/Aphrodite duo (which I also did), then fantastic, but they're not required. Since it just needs 2 boons it made the boon heat conditions easy to deal with.

The timer - since I was using a low dps weapon the timer would be a problem. So I didn't take it - zero for Tight Deadline.

I took both max Calisthenics Program (+30% health) and Benefits Package (perks to armored enemies). I didn't take any Chaos portals in my run but I did test Jury Summons instead of Cal Program in early trials. I ended up going with Cal Program over it. Yeah, +60% more enemies would be rough, but you can avoid those situations by making other choices.

The conditions I ended up using for 32 heat were:

Hard Labor 1
Convenience Fee 2
Extreme Measures 3 (I'll try EM4 at a lower heat level later)
Calisthenics Program 2
Benefits Package 2
Middle Management
Underworld Customs
Forced Overtime 2
Routine Inspection 1
Damage Control 2
Approval Process 1

Overall, it was a good challenge.

There are streamers who play at this heat level all the time with many different weapons and heat conditions. So I know it's doable, but not something I'd choose to do. After 32 I need a vacation - on heat 20, which now feels easy.

EDIT:
I used Chaos aspect for shield. Zagreus aspect would have been fine too.

[Nibbie]

I did it first try. Letting you pick the conditions allows you to mold the challenge to your gameplan. For example, I went in knowing I wanted to take my time, so I left the timer condition off (the run ended up being around 40 minutes). Since I was using Aspect of Hades (my favorite/most comfortable weapon) I also left off the one-hit shield, since I wanted to be spinning a lot (in retrospect I probably should have put points into that to take them away from an extra enemy speed). I started with Demeter's keepsake because I knew I wanted to be slowing enemies down, then adjusted as I needed to. Even so, it was still difficult, and I beat Hades with just one death defy and single digit health left. The challenge certainly isn't for everyone, which is why there isn't a steam achievement for it, or even a tangible reward, it is strictly for your own personal satisfaction. If you aren't enjoying it, there really isn't a reason to force yourself.

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by ♥♥♥♥♥♥:

I did it first try. Letting you pick the conditions allows you to mold the challenge to your gameplan. For example, I went in knowing I wanted to take my time, so I left the timer condition off (the run ended up being around 40 minutes). Since I was using Aspect of Hades (my favorite/most comfortable weapon) I also left off the one-hit shield, since I wanted to be spinning a lot (in retrospect I probably should have put points into that to take them away from an extra enemy speed). I started with Demeter's keepsake because I knew I wanted to be slowing enemies down, then adjusted as I needed to. Even so, it was still difficult, and I beat Hades with just one death defy and single digit health left. The challenge certainly isn't for everyone, which is why there isn't a steam achievement for it, or even a tangible reward, it is strictly for your own personal satisfaction. If you aren't enjoying it, there really isn't a reason to force yourself.

There is no Steam achievement for it?

[Darth Bokeh]

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

There is no Steam achievement for it?

Nope, just the Skelly statue.

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by 1sot0pe:

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

There is no Steam achievement for it?

Nope, just the Skelly statue.

Thanks for the heads up. In that case I'm not even going to try to beat it.

[Darth Bokeh]

Here's a dev comment on why they didn't make the the 32 heat Skelly statue an achievement:

Yes, we felt the 32-heat Skelly prize was its own reward. 32-heat clears are beyond the ability of many players, and in general we're not big on Achievements that are extraordinarily difficult even for skillful, invested players. This is just part of our design philosophy when it comes to Achievements and of course it's OK to disagree with it, I'm just explaining the reason for the omission.

As a more extreme example, we could have had "Clear the game on 50 Heat with each weapon", something that is theoretically possible; but almost no one would be able to do that, and if you're someone who enjoys earning Achievements, what might happen is you would repeatedly try to get that Achievement then eventually quit the game in frustration. We would much rather you leave this game happy than angry. The thing about Achievements is they can create a certain pressure to play a game a certain way, and we don't want our Achievement design to have an oversized influence on players' experience. The game is already filled with systems that create incentives to push yourself a bit if you want to.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1145360/discussions/0/2841165820084105169/#c2841165820084191302

[Darth Bokeh]

Funny thing is I don't care about Steam achievements. They're more along the lines of "something to shoot for if you're bored" to me. I find something with an in-game reward (like the Skelly statue or Fated List prophecies) to be more compelling.

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by 1sot0pe:

Funny thing is I don't care about Steam achievements. They're more along the lines of "something to shoot for if you're bored" to me. I find something with an in-game reward (like the Skelly statue or Fated List prophecies) to be more compelling.

I'm no achievement hunter either; but it's more or less an easy argument I've seen the game at its most difficult. I agree with the dev commentary though; 32 heat is too much.

[Yozchura]

Hello !

My advice to make it happen:

Experiment, practice constantly with one weapon of choice, take your time and increase slowly the difficulty.

It took me 200 hours, 222 runs before passing my first 32 heat with zeus shield one minute ago

it was cool, fun and epic !

by

[Learned Hand]

Originally posted by 1sot0pe:

Here's a dev comment on why they didn't make the the 32 heat Skelly statue an achievement:

Yes, we felt the 32-heat Skelly prize was its own reward. 32-heat clears are beyond the ability of many players, and in general we're not big on Achievements that are extraordinarily difficult even for skillful, invested players. This is just part of our design philosophy when it comes to Achievements and of course it's OK to disagree with it, I'm just explaining the reason for the omission.

As a more extreme example, we could have had "Clear the game on 50 Heat with each weapon", something that is theoretically possible; but almost no one would be able to do that, and if you're someone who enjoys earning Achievements, what might happen is you would repeatedly try to get that Achievement then eventually quit the game in frustration. We would much rather you leave this game happy than angry. The thing about Achievements is they can create a certain pressure to play a game a certain way, and we don't want our Achievement design to have an oversized influence on players' experience. The game is already filled with systems that create incentives to push yourself a bit if you want to.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1145360/discussions/0/2841165820084105169/#c2841165820084191302

I love this philosophy. Achievements are a cool way to offer a breadcrumb trail for players who are looking to complete a game and overcome a variety of challenges. I enjoy trying to earn them... to a point. Games that I enjoy playing and also use the Hades philosophy will be ones I will go for all achievements and have fun getting there. I will also tend to play those games (with smartly planed but attainable achievements) longer than I would have played them otherwise. When the devs push the envelope into the extreme category, I won't even bother trying for the achievements. I totally agree that hitting a frustration wall in efforts to earn achievements is a receipt to leave a lot of players feeling angry rather than happy.

[Darth Bokeh]

Originally posted by Learned Hand:

When the devs push the envelope into the extreme category, I won't even bother trying for the achievements. I totally agree that hitting a frustration wall in efforts to earn achievements is a receipt to leave a lot of players feeling angry rather than happy.

*cough*HollowKnight

[Fourlamas]

tsk tsk tsk, too scared to take less mirror upgrades? smh

no really if you cant handle your settings, change them! and practice, I literally just unlocked the second statue and you bet im grinding heat 32 instantly, not gonna take it slow one by one.

yea I will die but so what? part of the experience

considering how crazy it can go 32 heat doesnt look that bad

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by Fourlamas:

tsk tsk tsk, too scared to take less mirror upgrades? smh

no really if you cant handle your settings, change them! and practice, I literally just unlocked the second statue and you bet im grinding heat 32 instantly, not gonna take it slow one by one.

yea I will die but so what? part of the experience

considering how crazy it can go 32 heat doesnt look that bad

Real big man! Next time have a try at actually reading what is being said too, just to give off the impression you also have more than 3 braincells on top of your incredible skill.