How strong is Raphael lorewise?

[Is This Your Card? 69]

So Im curious about a lot of things, and I usually am not into lore that much but that changed after I played BG3.

So, how strong is Raphael compared to other devils we've seen and haven't seen.
Is he stronger than i.e. Mizora? What about Zariel?
Haven't really finished the game yet, me and my friend are very early in Act lll but I don't care if you spoil it as long as my curiosity regarding my question is sated.

Also what's his status in Hell?

[Jaeleth]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Iviene:

And exactly this is the reason why they stopped at level 12.

The D&D system is broken at some level, and there are no viable enemys left. When the arch devils, and greater demons are just an annoyance the basic system is tuned wrong Charakters become too powerful. To deliver at least a little bit of challenge, the party suddenly would need to fight the lords of hell + retinue, half gods and their angels etc.

And I am really glad larian decided to stop at level 12. Propably 10 would have been even a better plan.

I do not agree with that (broken system). Of course difficulty can be adjusted for any player level (real world DM's do not really cap player levels at 12...). Look at Baldurs Gate 2 + Throne of Bhaal expansion, there was (almost) no progression limits (there was a numerical exp limit but was so high that you only hit it if you went solo more than one run, importing character into the next run an so forth). You could reach level 31 in some classes. And even making only one run, full party, you'd be able to reach lev. 20 and access ALL spells with any of the characters (That's why many people here, including me, complain that Jaheira should be, historically, incredibly more powerful than she actually is in BG3 and not even be suited to go with the party, alone she should be able to wipe out my entire party, I remember when she was in my party in BG2 at game end, incredible spells...).

In BG2 we did not fought some minor hell princes, like Zariel, we fought a GOD (or 99% of it's essence, concentrated on Amelyssan Blackhearted PLUS her minions which included elemental princes, Mariliths... ) and it was all OK... I can't see a problem with Larian do the same as a software team 30 years ago... So, whatever the reason, their excuse is not valid. Perhaps the most reasonable one is that doing so in ONE game would make its development TWICE or even THRICE as expensive. Thus, perhaps, an expansion, at the same price...

As for the Elder Brain, yes, I remember to have disposed of one, plus its entire entourage of illithids, in the underdark in BG2. We had those psionic blocking crowns though, so, it became trivial even with our party not being that high level at that time. An ancient Red is far, far more powerful than an elder brain, as long as you have proper mind shielding.

As for fighting gods and world ending spells, let's have them, that's what we want, some gods were, previously, extreme high-level mortals who "ascended", why shouldn't we?
Bring back improved alacrity and time stop and whirlwind, and wish :)

[DontMisunderstand]

Zariel is lord of one of the Nine Hells. Think of that as basically being a minor deity.

[Jaeleth]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hellsteeth30:

Początkowo opublikowane przez GriffinPilgrim:

Yeah, those are footsoldiers. Lucky you can only enter Hell at the Avernus level really; all the heavy hitters are busy fighting the Blood War and don't have time to investigate a lost nautaloid otherwise no way a level one party gets out alive.

Not sure how strong Mizora is by comparison though, she enjoys Zariel's protection.

Everybody in BG 3 acts like Raphael's a pit fiend or something, especially in the House of Hope. Without his pillars I'm sure he'd not be all that.

Raphael is, indeed, over "cooked", he and Mizora are both just cambions... Powerful but not that much. Raphael is of an higher heritage though (Mephistopheles), so, I assume more powerful, and Mizora is just an hellish lawyer, Zariel protection works only in hell... Wouldn't have saved her from quick termination in the illithid dungeons in Moonrise Towers were not for your... Benevolence.

[Jaeleth]

Początkowo opublikowane przez DontMisunderstand:

Zariel is lord of one of the Nine Hells. Think of that as basically being a minor deity.

Correction, she is the ruler of the 1st layer of hell... A fallen Solar. Powerful, but nothing THAT special and far from deity, even minor. My (our) party(ies) in BG 2 wiped out a Fallen Solar aided by 2 Mariliths, a succubus and an Alu FIend BEFORE going after Amelyssan (99% goddess replacement for Bhaal) and I (we) would only be able (should we wish) to become Bhaal, a minor deity, AFTER beating up all those underlings. Bhaal himself is a lesser (minor) deity.

Raphael is beneath Zariel, but he is a spawn of the 2nd most powerful archdemon and ruler of the 8th layer of hell.

[AnonymousWizard]

Początkowo opublikowane przez His Divine Shadow:

Początkowo opublikowane przez AnonymousWizard:

I mean, it's a padded out 1-12 campaign (particularly Act 3, the game starts relying on gear upgrades because you hit level cap too early) which uses monsters suitable for levels 1-12. It's not Exalted where taking out gods is the equivalent to killing rats in a basement, Ir's not a 3.5 Epic Level game where you're flinging around Quickened Time Stops and crafting Necromancy spells designed to inflict genocide. Even an Elder Brain is only CR14 in 5e.

Furthermore it follows the 5e design where world ending threats can be defeated by a village's worth of peasants armed with longbows. Who have been blindfolded, had their legs tied to wooden posts, beeswax shoved in their ears, have buckets on their feet, are wearing mittens, and are singing the Hedgehog song.

Here’s the ending to the Queen of The Spiders module from AD&D 1st edition where a party level of 10-14’s defeat the goddess* Lloth and her Yochlol demon handmaidens

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Demonweb_Pits

* in case anyone was unclear as to what Lloth is, and while unlikely it is also possible to straight up kill her. With a party of level 10-14’s

I'm more familiar with 3.5+, but this feeds into my point. Expectations change between editions, and in the pre-WotC days while you average commoner probably had a couple of hit dice (characters who did physical work were recommended to get up to 3d8) they had no real chance against threats suited for characters in their mid-teens. I believe that Warrior classes even got the ability to just mop up basic mooks. 3.5 actually made that gap larger, but 5e crushed it down to be closer to what most fantasy TTRPGs offer.

Note that I'm not actually against 5e have crunched down the power for everyone, modern D&D is really two different games depending on which spells the casters have access too. 5e really wanted to be a game about the low level experience from 3.X and 4e for twenty levels, and would have succeeded if they'd removed the 'problematic' spells from the spell list. I honestly think that it might work better if levels 1-10 and 11-20 were split into two separate books which covered the relevant game styles, but that's a personal opinion. I'm also not a big fan of exactly how 5e dropped the power level, 1st level characters feel too incompetent for my tastes, but I own enough games to get around that.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Początkowo opublikowane przez DontMisunderstand:

Zariel is lord of one of the Nine Hells. Think of that as basically being a minor deity.

Of the Archdevils only Asmodeus is a god. The others are "only" powerful devils. In the highly unlikely event of a direct fight any of the others would almost certainly lose to even minor deities (excepting those deities with no combat capabilities, like Eldath Goddess of Peace). Don't get me wrong, they are absurdly powerful, but they are not on god level.

[His Divine Shadow]

Początkowo opublikowane przez AnonymousWizard:

Początkowo opublikowane przez His Divine Shadow:

Here’s the ending to the Queen of The Spiders module from AD&D 1st edition where a party level of 10-14’s defeat the goddess* Lloth and her Yochlol demon handmaidens

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Demonweb_Pits

* in case anyone was unclear as to what Lloth is, and while unlikely it is also possible to straight up kill her. With a party of level 10-14’s

I'm more familiar with 3.5+, but this feeds into my point. Expectations change between editions, and in the pre-WotC days while you average commoner probably had a couple of hit dice (characters who did physical work were recommended to get up to 3d8) they had no real chance against threats suited for characters in their mid-teens. I believe that Warrior classes even got the ability to just mop up basic mooks. 3.5 actually made that gap larger, but 5e crushed it down to be closer to what most fantasy TTRPGs offer.

Note that I'm not actually against 5e have crunched down the power for everyone, modern D&D is really two different games depending on which spells the casters have access too. 5e really wanted to be a game about the low level experience from 3.X and 4e for twenty levels, and would have succeeded if they'd removed the 'problematic' spells from the spell list. I honestly think that it might work better if levels 1-10 and 11-20 were split into two separate books which covered the relevant game styles, but that's a personal opinion. I'm also not a big fan of exactly how 5e dropped the power level, 1st level characters feel too incompetent for my tastes, but I own enough games to get around that.

It doesn’t feed into your point… from the very beginning the power levels have been whacky and mid teen level player characters can go toe to toe with gods. I also have no idea why you keep bringing up peasants. Throughout bg3 peasants and even other adventurers and warriors are regularly and continuously slaughtered by enemies your party handedly defeats. Unless you’re referring to the scene after you defeat the bbg? You killed the elder brain, the thing that controls the mind flayers, they’re all more than dazed

I don’t think a lot of people, even some casual d&d players, understand that level 20 pc’s are basically nukes. You can wipe out entire nations at level 20 and it wouldn’t even be difficult.

Like elminster I think was level 35 in 3rd edition with a cr of 39. Asmodeus, the greatest devil, supreme master of the nine hells, was cr 32

[Bisexual Offender]

There are differences in cambion powers, basically the higher tier of devil a cambion spawns from the stronger it gets.
Also there is a concept of a noble cambion, basically cambions born from the highest tiers of devils.
I`ve seen claims being thrown around that Raph is a son of ol` Mephistopheles. if true that would make him incredibly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ strong, not Zariel level but still.

[AnonymousWizard]

Początkowo opublikowane przez His Divine Shadow:

It doesn’t feed into your point… from the very beginning the power levels have been whacky and mid teen level player characters can go toe to toe with gods.

My points is that the assumptions vary, and actually in 3e and later that's straight up untrue (3.X gods being almost universally ECL40+ with 20 levels of Cleric). Assumptions vary between editions, and in 0e-2e that was the assumption, but it hasn't been for 24 years.

I also have no idea why you keep bringing up peasants. Throughout bg3 peasants and even other adventurers and warriors are regularly and continuously slaughtered by enemies your party handedly defeats. Unless you’re referring to the scene after you defeat the bbg? You killed the elder brain, the thing that controls the mind flayers, they’re all more than dazed

Back when 5e came out it's depowering of high level characters and their enemies was a Big Deal. To the point where one forum I frequent had many threads on how High Level Threat X could be killed in one round by Y commoners. Your standard village peasant (straight 10s, 1d8 hp, no notable proficiency in weapons or armour) is a weirdly useful metric for this kind of stuff.

If your world ending threat can be taken out by 600 peasants then it should find a way to be world ending that isn't 'I'm a big bad monster, rar!' Raphael actually does this successfully, while he's able to hold his own in combat his real danger is how he's used his charm and resources to get a lot of people dancing to his tune (even the PC until Act 3).

I don’t think a lot of people, even some casual d&d players, understand that level 20 pc’s are basically nukes. You can wipe out entire nations at level 20 and it wouldn’t even be difficult.

Not in 5e, although you could probably effectively wipe out a city (especially a Wizard or Sorcerer with no other uses for their spell slots). That's because an explicit goal of 5e was that a standard orc mook from the Monster Manual should still be able to hit and damage a 20th level character, even if they have to rely on sheer numbers to be meaningfully dangerous.

[His Divine Shadow]

Początkowo opublikowane przez AnonymousWizard:

Początkowo opublikowane przez His Divine Shadow:

It doesn’t feed into your point… from the very beginning the power levels have been whacky and mid teen level player characters can go toe to toe with gods.

My points is that the assumptions vary, and actually in 3e and later that's straight up untrue (3.X gods being almost universally ECL40+ with 20 levels of Cleric). Assumptions vary between editions, and in 0e-2e that was the assumption, but it hasn't been for 24 years.

I also have no idea why you keep bringing up peasants. Throughout bg3 peasants and even other adventurers and warriors are regularly and continuously slaughtered by enemies your party handedly defeats. Unless you’re referring to the scene after you defeat the bbg? You killed the elder brain, the thing that controls the mind flayers, they’re all more than dazed

Back when 5e came out it's depowering of high level characters and their enemies was a Big Deal. To the point where one forum I frequent had many threads on how High Level Threat X could be killed in one round by Y commoners. Your standard village peasant (straight 10s, 1d8 hp, no notable proficiency in weapons or armour) is a weirdly useful metric for this kind of stuff.

If your world ending threat can be taken out by 600 peasants then it should find a way to be world ending that isn't 'I'm a big bad monster, rar!' Raphael actually does this successfully, while he's able to hold his own in combat his real danger is how he's used his charm and resources to get a lot of people dancing to his tune (even the PC until Act 3).

I don’t think a lot of people, even some casual d&d players, understand that level 20 pc’s are basically nukes. You can wipe out entire nations at level 20 and it wouldn’t even be difficult.

Not in 5e, although you could probably effectively wipe out a city (especially a Wizard or Sorcerer with no other uses for their spell slots). That's because an explicit goal of 5e was that a standard orc mook from the Monster Manual should still be able to hit and damage a 20th level character, even if they have to rely on sheer numbers to be meaningfully dangerous.

Fair enough for some of that. You could make the same argument with a group of 600 peasants in any edition though. Assuming a pitchfork is 1d3 and depending on the ac of the enemy that’s quite a lot of damage.

I honestly think a lot of the arguments against 5th Ed. Are entirely bad faith/ complaining because changes. I remember when 3.5 came out and everyone was making the exact same arguments

[two shoes]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sadako Enjoyer 69:

So Im curious about a lot of things, and I usually am not into lore that much but that changed after I played BG3.

So, how strong is Raphael compared to other devils we've seen and haven't seen.
Is he stronger than i.e. Mizora? What about Zariel?
Haven't really finished the game yet, me and my friend are very early in Act lll but I don't care if you spoil it as long as my curiosity regarding my question is sated.

Also what's his status in Hell?

He’s the heir to Mephistopheles so… pretty damn strong

[Occasum_Solis]

He is a weak a*s b*tch - i one shot him EZ.

[jait]

lol, that's a D&D 1.0 module. Level 14 in 1980 was god like.

HDS? More like Stanley Tweedle


Raphael isn't powerful, it's just another "larian" thing. Keep in mind his father literally had the Crown for ages and didn't do anything with it. It's one of three objects needed to fail at being a God.

[His Divine Shadow]

Początkowo opublikowane przez jait:

lol, that's a D&D 1.0 module. Level 14 in 1980 was god like.

HDS? More like Stanley Tweedle

That's what exactly what I've been saying though. People were ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about the levels being too low for the stuff we fight and the places we go in game. I pointed out that even back in the day you had level 14's killing gods and the first modules introducing the underdark were for level 1's. And for most of the monsters they're not nearly as high a threat as people imagine, for whatever reason, they are