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You mentioned twice she being a “director”, point taken she is bossy and the Builder Spirit says she has “good eye” about where to build… but that's not super necessary and the story would not crumble without her.
PROOF: is that the story gone well, you built a lot, made big projects, had adventures bond with other characters in the other island in her total absence (oh thank you!), the story the game play goes well and she is not missed.
In opposite you really feel when Malroth abandons you, you really miss him, in both the story and gameplay
CONCLUSION: No, she is NOT NECESSARY even a bit (even when she is meant to be an “important character”).
Not saying your analysis is wrong, if you are right worse, sad how they failed to develop her
As I mentioned for the dialogues devs assumed she would be part of “a trio” as you are a duo with Malroth, but they failed to make you bond with her, the scene with the party at the beach was a desperate cheap cloying trick to try to achieve that.
And I told my problem with her is not she is “EVIL” or something like that, just like she has a knack for some us (perhaps not everyone) to feel her super annoying, unlikeable and obnoxious, with zero contribution to the story apart from her irritating presence.
The first part of the scene of course is merely an inside joke to long time DQ players, for which Lulu's participation is more important. Lulu pretends not to hear you correctly until you answer yes, like Gwaelin in DQ1 when asked if you'd accept her love; Lulu's "glares at" the builder after first taste, as boss enemes would sometimes glare in games to indicate the focus of their next attack; the builder "can't escape" the terrible taste of the cake, as if the Run command had failed; and the "Malroth is confused!" line after he calls it tasty, as if he was hit by a monster causing befuddle.
Yes, I missed that, as you pointed that scene is also important for “Malroth’s promise” and show his internal conflicts, that will be very important for the story later.
Yet in hat scene is the assumption they are “a trio” and have a “strong bond”, surely you already bonded strongly with Malroth at that point, but why with Lulu?
In story telling a rule is “show don’t tell” and we are supposed to be bonded with Lulu because they say, but the story and the character did nothing to make you bond with her. That doesn’t happens with a lot of other (minor) characters and the other 3 girls in the story, you spend so much time with them, sharing their sorrows and trying to help them. But apart from my anthipathy from her objectively I don’t see a reason to bond with Lulu.
And I don't know if it ever says anything like a "strong bond" between the three of them, only that it seems to show Lulu feels much closer to the Builder and Malroth than the new visitors - always welcoming them back from the story islands and stuff. And just before the start of the party she admits some jealousy about missing some of the adventures they'd had. (So I suppose jealousy is something else Malroth learns about human emotions from her, though he is typically unappreciative.)
As far as her necessity in the story... I feel like the most valuable thing she might have added to the story was telling the people they should have at least tried to complete the castle. Though I'm happy they didn't. They did alright at the end of the day though... I was considering making them sleep in the rooms they made... but nah.
I perfectly understand her behavior at the start, there isn't really going to be much to go off if you're a stranded brat that could have easily been presumed dead just because you wasn't blabbering about. But if she really thinks it's a great idea to carry an attitude with entitlement in a world where everyone else is nice, even an actual king, then her mind is probably where her body should have been at the beginning of the game, lost in the ocean.
As far as wanting her being removed be a mistake... No. There were maybe two greedy characters in the game. The king and hercule head. The latter made more demands than the former, and the former you would imagine would be entitled to respect.
If Lulu's character does anything, it shows how little she's grown, and how clingy she is to the few things she think she has... You'd imagine the builder could be candid about her cooking if she could insult new builders on their castle. And it also lends to the fact that every other character has developed enough to not even pay any mind to her Lulutopia shenanigans, they have had to had their own triumphs in selfishness, fame and greed to openly ignore her, rather than confront her, like Malroth does, which is why I mentioned earlier that she seems to want to force a bond through history. I am sort of surprised she ended up going through most of the game in a manner that shoehorned her into the newest members all of the time, while seeming too dense to learn from the way she treated the previous bunches.
Obviously my opinion of her and her character are conflated when I say that. But to the character's fault, those character deficient traits have been allowed and even enabled by the builder, in the same fashion that Malroth's suffering was. Ironically I moved the prison cell door to the center of the blueprint, and spent the last few sieges sitting down there with him. I also was deeply hoping the Masked grunt kept count of how many times I've attempted to get him out. I think that really would have been a tasty detail to make your interactions with him a little more meaningful.
I would rather say, Malroth is mutually unappreciative towards people who don't value him. Especially for someone who's been in conflict the majority of the game, and feels rested in spike ridden toxic pooled prison cells. It's kind of implied he's used to suffering and being alone, and I feel it amplifies the ease at which he shrugs everyone off, including the builder. Heck, the amount of digging Malroth dug in the other prison really shows that he could have left if he really wanted to. He just didn't. And he did that without eating for maybe a week?
In terms of Lulu though, there's nothing to add.
But it doesn't explain Lulu's behavior well enough in my opinion. You guys want to see less of her. I rather wished to have seen more to build up her backstory and better explain her value. Instead its all implied through dialogue and how she compares to the leading ladies of the other three islands.
As far as not picking up a sword to fight, there's a progression in the story:
* Lulu doesn't fight, except maybe arguing with Malroth.
* Rosie doesn't fight physically, but fights in another sense for her dreams to come true.
* Babs fights, even though she doesn't have to, in order to protect the ones she loves (and love her in return.)
* Anessa fights, because its a soldier's duty to fight (but not necessarily win, in her opinion.)
If Lulu fought, it would kind of mess up this progression unless Rosie also fought, which in turn would undermine Britney's role a bit.
If they fight or not and their abilities is not important, I feel even bonded with the 3 other girls, you spent so many hours in their island, helping them, sharing their sorrows, helping to develop… you end very attached with them at the end even when in theory Lulu is more “important” and part of the “trio” the game doesn’t give you a reason to felt bond to Lulu
And I feel other thing that doesn’t help is that the 3 other girls have a dream and try to help their people and their islands so hard, even Babs that I had seen some people hate her.
In contrast Lulu, perhaps part of the (not funny) “gags” her character and personality imposes, is selfish, everything revolves at the end about her, when Malroth disappears she is “worry” for him…. because he is necessary to keep the order in Lulutopia... and many examples like that.
That selfishness I feel makes her character more unlikeable in contrast with the compromise and passion the other 3 girls have.
Babs was basically a beacon for the boys.
Anessa was... actually what I have expected female protagonists to be when I was younger. Ultra serious, walled people that were pretty alright once they loosened up.
Britney is just... lol. It is definitely a character where I wonder what Harkon was doing and who he was even talking to... But yeah.
I don't think giving Lulu more airtime would have helped. Because as a character she just looks like an attention seeking boss that criticizes others but hates being criticized, she insults the castle the people made, but what has SHE built? She put down a bed, she crushed my rocks to put a crafting table down, she cooked a bad cake, and made a straw bed and camp fire to wait for our return. None of those creations were worthy of the privilege to critique others, she even insults Malroth's torch! Her development would have been her making the party space for you, and her cooking a meal you can actually eat. Also being able to discern whether someone is actually happy with what she is doing vs tolerating her antics. But she hasn't done any of that. I thought she'd play a bigger role in getting the trio back, but she just made noise and self assured that things would eventually work out... The same type of attitude that probably kept the booger in a cell for so long.
Lulu is just irredeemable to me, and it annoys me she shares a name to one of my favorite female characters. One who touched down with the most selfless personalities out of them all aside from Auron, and Jecht.
Regardless. It feels as if Lulu has had the most spotlight out of all of the characters as far as supporters go, so giving her more of it just seems like a lost cause to me. She's had several opportunities to make it not about her, and failed every time. The small amount of time Malroth has taken from the player was a subtle display of give and take. Where it became more intense as time went on, but for acceptable reasons. Anessa is clearly oblivious, Babs is... Babs, and Rosie is basically the starry eyed girl you are fine with keeping safe.
I respect your commitment to Lulu at the least. But Lulu reminds me of the Handler from Monster Hunter World. You can't expect me to like her if you've done nothing but show me better for the entire game. Both characters are somewhat entrenched in commitment. But there isn't enough substance for me to have a connection with them. Whereas characters like the A-Lister, and Serious Handler have proved themselves completely in the one and few missions they respectively accompanied the player in. No additional time was needed for them to put their words into action... and they did, handily so.
Having her mature without a serious info dump, or motive, and apology to the town isn't really going to flesh her out as a character, especially after what the duo do, as they've basically been playing pen and sword to the story. There really isn't a stance I could take that would give Lulu more appeal. Something I could typically do with other characters.
Lulu does have a dream, just like the other three: to build up the island into her own personal paradise. Its selfish, but its a dream none the less. I'm not sure Rosie's desire to see a big farm, green grass, and flowers is all that unselfish either, and Anessa is almost entirely unwilling to help the others. To say Lulu doesn't have a dream or that the vision she has for her island is more selfish than the others (especially Anessa's) is just not accurate in my opinion.
Well some of that stuff the builder did, not Lulu. Why only give her credit for deciding the need for a party space? Shouldn't the river (and canals), a giant spectacle for visitors to admire in the desert, or a castle as grand as Moonbrooke's be on the list, too? She has as much vision for her island as the others do for theirs. She also cooks at least two food recipes entirely on her own, which is more than the most other characters in the game who simply follow the builder's lead. You could argue Babs does the most "building" since she cooks several meals for the builder (and others), but she has to see the builder do it first. Lulu takes more initiative to discover things on her own. In fact, because she's tried (and failed) one could argue that it gives her some measure to more fairly critique the poor workmanship of the castle. (She is the most acquainted with what failure looks like after all. She also allowed the Children of Hargon to succeed at IOA where they had failed at Furrowfield and Khrumbul-dun.)
I think people overlook Lulu as being just as important to her island as the other three ladies are to theirs, solely because of instead of one 15 hour-ish adventure, Lulu's stuff is split into five (six if counting post-game) shorter segments. But if you add things up, most players spend more time on IOA than any of the other three and Lulu contributes more to her vision over that time than the other three do to theirs.
I'm not sure we see the same thing in the party scene. From what I see she shows serious concern for keeping the trio together. Despite her antics, she shows she cares about at least Malroth and the builder, even if not so much for the others. At least from this point forward she doesn't seem particularly rude to either of them to me (just to the others)
The truth you are clever and pointed it well with a good argument, almost convincing, nice try :P I think is truly unfair the comparison and is not the same.
Rossie is a human with a great vocation and a great dream; she has a “farmer heart”, wants his place to rebirth and build a great farm, she wants to convince the others to help her in her dream for everyone. IN CONTRADT WITH LULU she is humble and understands her limitations, she sees she needs the builder, and not only him she needs the other farmers to work as team. for that common great endeavor.
Pretty unfair to compare that with the selfish Lulu ideas: the others, not part of a team: stinky and dirty people her mere subjects for what “Lulutopia needs” she works an endeavor for herself or to be more precise: mostly you and the other characters are working in an endeavor for her.
Anessa is the most complex character, she is a soldier, pretty much for “duty” and what “she believes” right to the extreme, even hiding stuff for the others she makes you believes she is a strong Children of H believer but after you saved her is the opposite, and making that lie is part of fighting of what she believes: to help the builder and recognizing mistakes: she acknowledge more than once that it was a mistake to let Malroth rot in a cell but I don’t see anything of that how can be related with Lulu selfishness, in some sense Anessa could be the less “selfish” character.
That’s what we have been discussing, “show don’t tell” for some reason, Lulu is supposed to be almost important and as Malroth and you to feel bonded to her, but as we had said a lot of times, the game does nothing to do that, YES SORRY MATTER OF THE TIME of hours you spent with the other characters.
But WORSE the few time you spend with her, she has that super obnoxious and irritating personality that doesn’t help to make that few time worth of like her.
Sorry for me she is just a random character you find at the beginning, irritating and unlikeable, THAT DEVS PUSHED YOU TO THE THROAT, was meant to be important just because they or writers say so but not justifying it, and sorry no: to “have good eye to place stuff” I don’t consider it that important, and even when you have tried to make arguments about, I DON’T SE HER THAT IMPORTANT or necessary to the story or game, nor that the plot or game will crumble without her presence, even when that was the idea.
Second, I really don't know how to argue that Lulu doesn't have aspirations for how she wants her island to turn out. Its just.. wrong. The game makes it very obvious that she has big plans for her island. I don't care if its selfish or not. In fact, its good for the story that it is selfish because it reinforces one of the two core themes of the story: That the "real" world sucks and the imaginary world is better. Lulu, being a "real" person, reflects the bad stuff; the Builder and all the imaginary characters reflect the good stuff, and that the builder is happy to live out the rest of their life in the imaginary world without any attempt to return to the real. The final scene where Malroth reads the builder's book and discovers its just childhood doodles and the builder is living out a fantasy with no desire to return to the real world has far less weight if there wasn't this division between real world stuff = bad and imaginary world stuff = good. Without Lulu this scene doesn't carry any emotional weight. Its just Malroth poking fun at the builder and totally ignores any lack of attempt to return to the real world. The lack of any attempt to go home is a tremendous plothole: there's a reason the builder doesn't try, its there to be explained if you examine the story in full, and it requires Lulu to be a constant reminder of why. So if you still think Lulu isn't needed in the story, then come up with a better explanation for the final scene and the plothole of never trying to get back home.
I'm sorry, but I see comments like this and I feel like you just didn't grasp the depth of the story. If you don't understand the full story, then you can't understand Lulu's importance to it.
Now, I totally understand that this second theme is not blatently obvious, even to people who finished the game. But if you've finished the game and read my spoilers, it should turn on some light bulbs. I believe most people are so heavily invested in Malroth, since his story angle is so heavy in the last 15 hours or so, that they overlook what's the builder's done (or, more accurately, not done) the entire game, and don't realize the relevance of comments like Lulu's about whether the trio will stay together forever, or the significance of what's actually in the builder's book. Lulu is much more important to the builder's personal story than most people realize. It wasn't until my third playthrough that I noticed the plothole and how the ending scene, if interpreted a certain way resolves it perfectly, especially with Lulu's presence and behavior setting the stage for it. Take Lulu out and I think the story absolutely does suffer. (In fact, someone at Discord suggested that all of Lulu's lines could have been given to the Hairy Hermit, and I disagree: it would only work if the Hairy Hermit were just as much a jerk as Lulu, but with less reason why than Lulu has.)
If anyone still doubts Lulu's importance or the need for her sour attitude toward others, I encourage them to first finish the game then read my spoiler above. If still in doubt, I welcome any better explanation for builder's behavior throughout the game (particularly the plothole and the secret of the builder's book) that doesn't benefit in some way from Lulu being rude and obnoxious, and thus a frequently recurring reminder of the "real" world and all its troubles for which the builder has no desire to return..
From the story construction “point of view” Lulu sound logic EQUATION:
-Each of the 3 main islands in the game has a “main girl”, so why no Awakening Island should have a main girl too? And off course being the main island and your “base”, she should be somewhat more “important” to the plot and all.
Even when you may have good points and assuming you are right of her importance and considering the above “equation” is where the character fails, you don’t feel a bit bonded or “feel” her importance, for Malroth, when he disappeared, you really felt it, not only in the story, in the bond you made with him, also in “game play”,
Devs pretend at the end you will miss Malroth, your partner your buddy, they mention the builder being sad and worry for him… and yes they achieved perfectly that goal, in that sense you don’t feel the slightest bonded to Lulu at the end or “feeling” her that important.
You mentioned and accepted she “could be toned down” curiously I found this in reddit; as they discuss she could be filling some sort of “personality role”, something we had discussed here too:
For what I understand Malroth the imaginary world and Lulu the real world, so she is annoying and because of that Builder don’t want to return to the real world
I don’t think most gamers would grasp or care that level of deepness.
There is something that doesn’t convince me of your past argumentation, where Lulu MUST be annoying so so the builder don’t want to return the “real world”
I don’t think she was meant to be that unlikeable
Some dialogues and scenes makes me think as we have mentioned over and over, you should feel “fond to her” and part of a trio, perhaps some fall for the cloying trick in the party at the beach, and no sorry, very well done with Malroth as a “duo” and totally fail with Lulu.
There is the scene when you return of the first island, Lulu annoying, arrogant and bossy as always, she runs enthusiastic to the island to show where to build,, Rosie runs behind her talking high of Lulu, praising her and saying something like “I like the girl” like if Lulu were “miss sympathy” and super awesome just for being hyper.
STL;DR Sorry I stand with my first argument since we started, they saw her “necessary” (for the equation I just mentioned the “girl of the main island”) some “genius” thought make her that arrogant and obnoxious with her repetitive gags would make her funny in some way, but they failed, Jar Jar syndrome, they made one of the most irritating characters I can remember in a video game.