Why does my light tower upgrade to a freezing tower?

[ExoneratedPhoenix]

Have light and water towers and bought the freeze function.

The light tower has all the water/freeze upgrades listed, most greyed out as only have freeze.

What? Why? How?

[ExoneratedPhoenix]

Originally posted by Mortac:

Originally posted by TwistedHelix3:

That's bizarre and weird as hell and makes zero sense.

Makes perfect sense to me. But alright.

You use loads of different elemental towers to make higher grade towers that use none of those different elements, and is still a single element tower based on attack and consider them dual/triples etc...

They're all single element, but have pre-requisites.

Another issue is most of the lategame towers you can't build from the basic ones. You have to press space and build them separately, rather than upgrading to them. Only options available are always the earliest upgrades and once you do those, nothing else is available other than changing to the different elements.

[Arqwart]

Reposting this from another thread as to not reinvent the wheel.

Tier 1 towers are all single-element towers. They can be built from the tower bar at the bottom of the screen or from the tower menu.

Tier 2 towers are all dual-element towers. They require the two elements noted in their requirements. They can be built straight from the tower menu or be upgraded to from one of the one-element towers it's made from. Example: Howitzer is Earth/Dark. It can be upgraded to from both the Darkness and the Earth towers.

Tier 3 towers are all tri-element towers. They require the three elements noted in their requirements. They can be built straight from the tower menu or be upgraded to from one of the two-element towers that include 2 of the 3 elements it's made from. Example: Quake is made from Earth/Fire/Nature. It can be upgraded to from the Solar (Fire/Nature), Blacksmith (Fire/Earth), and Mushroom (Nature/Earth) towers.

Tier 4 towers are all quad-element towers. They require the four elements noted in their requirements. They can be built straight from the tower menu or be upgraded to from one of the three-element towers that include 3 of the 4 elements it's made from. Example: Plague is Dark/Water/Nature/Earth. It can be upgraded to from the Flooding (Water/Nature/Dark), Root (Nature/Earth/Dark), Golem (Nature/Earth/Water), and Muck (Earth/Dark/Water) towers.

While 2-, 3-, and 4-element towers require combinations of base elements, they will deal the damage of the element whose tree it falls under in the tower menu. Example: Howitzer tower is built from Earth/Dark, but it's under the Earth tree so it deals Earth damage.

When upgrading a tower to the next combination tier, you're effectively adding the missing element to the tower. You can see this in the hotkeys on the tower bar at the bottom of the screen while you have a tower selected. If you have a Dark tower out and have the Earth element available, you can upgrade it to a Howitzer by pressing E (for Earth). Vice versa also works if you have an Earth tower (press D to "add" Dark to the combo, turning it into a Howitzer).

When hovering your cursor over a tower in the tower menu, it will highlight all towers it can potentially upgrade into. Hovering over a multi-element tower also shows what it can be upgraded from as well as its base elements. Example: if you hover over Corrosion, it highlights the following: Fire/Water/Dark (its base elements), Poison/Vapor/Infernal (the towers it can be upgraded from), and Singularity/Crystal Spire/Archdruid (the towers it can potentially upgrade into).

[Karawasa]

Originally posted by TwistedHelix3:

Another issue is most of the lategame towers you can't build from the basic ones. You have to press space and build them separately, rather than upgrading to them. Only options available are always the earliest upgrades and once you do those, nothing else is available other than changing to the different elements.

Pressing space is simply a shortcut. All towers in the game can be built from the basic ones. I would read the post directly above mine as he does an amazing job explaining things.

[ExoneratedPhoenix]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835429887 Main tree

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835429901 Light single Lvl 1

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835429913 Light to be upgraded to “dual” Lightning Lvl 1

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835429921 Lightning tower can’t be upgraded to Laser tower, which is a light element tower. The option doesn’t exist.


Want to know where I can upgrade to a Laser tower?

In the pissing Earth Tower upgrade system

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835429942 Earth upgraded to Howitzer, and I can then go to Laser.

This makes ZERO SENSE. I can only build a laser tower from scratch with the full amount of money, which tactically sucks. But the only other way is to build a completely different elemental tower which isn’t effective against enemies, to then gradually upgrade to an element that is.

And don’t bang on about Duals etc – because the first upgrade to lightning exists in the light branch as a paid upgrade despite needing Earth. Well Laser needs Earth too, but is only viable as a gradual upgrade in the Earth line (despite not being listed in the Earth line!) when other Earth/Light duals can be bought from the Light line.

This is just a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mess that has no logic. Other towers also do this and I cannot fathom why certain ones aren’t available in their own elemental paths – but others are.

[ExoneratedPhoenix]

While I'm here mentioning bugs, why is my interest at 2.0% when the update stated it's being moved to 2.6%?

[Treyell]

lightning does not need earth. lightning needs fire. the laser tower has no fire in it so you cant upgrade to it from a tower that has fire.

the "min tree" is not really a tree i dont know if its named that in the game, but it does not work like a tree. its more a list of towers and it does show how they are realted to each other if you hover over them.

[ExoneratedPhoenix]

If it doesn't function like a tree, then why does the game have a visual of upgrade trees?

All I'm saying is the way it is visually stylised etc makes it impossible to know what towers upgrade to which ones until you're in the game and have to manually write down or excel that stuff.

No tutorial explains it either.

It means I have to manually figure out what towers upgrade to what other towers as no visual tree shows it in game.

And after all the mess of jumping between elements, you then have to overlay them with the enemy element waves to try and pattern which one is best. But then you don't even get the other elements in the attack damage. That's the thing I find most weird, switching between all the elements in 1 tower, and it still ends up with 1 elemental attack, lol.

Missed a trick there for towers to do Earth and Fire damage at the same time etc, like....All the other TD games do.

I don't mind figuring things out - that's what TD games are for, but figuring out upgrade paths manually because the devs didn't make actual upgrade trees or link them with lines etc and instead went for 6 columns that don't represent how it upgrades is lazy and terrible game mechanics.

EDIT: As to that tree and hovering, sure, but it highlights half the trees (including the light one, which is why I was confused that I couldn't upgrade to laser!). So I suppose you can get that tower from all those towers - apart from when you can't with no visual clue. Here's an idea - MAKE IT A VISUAL TREE WITH THE RULES INHERENTLY OBVIOUS.

[Treyell]

Originally posted by TwistedHelix3:

It means I have to manually figure out what towers upgrade to what other towers as no visual tree shows it in game.

no you dont if you open the tower table you can use your mouse and hover over a tower and see what elements it is made off, what towers upgrade into it and what towers it upgrades into. they towers just light up n the tree i would also prefer lines but thats what we got. its not nothing.

[ExoneratedPhoenix]

Originally posted by Treyell:

Originally posted by TwistedHelix3:

It means I have to manually figure out what towers upgrade to what other towers as no visual tree shows it in game.

no you dont if you open the tower table you can use your mouse and hover over a tower and see what elements it is made off, what towers upgrade into it and what towers it upgrades into. they towers just light up n the tree i would also prefer lines but thats what we got. its not nothing.

Right,

And guess what tower lights up when I hover over laser?

LIGHT, and LIGHTNING towers!

But I can't upgrade from Light or lightning to Laser.

Like I said, it makes zero sense and has terrible visuals.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835460022

The light tower is lit, I should be able to upgrade to laser. I can't. I have to go through other elements - which are also highlighted, but again, that means SOME highlights aren't enough, where SOME highlights are enough of the pre requisite to build the laser tower.

The issue is the function to tell the player what is required is to HIGHLIGHT the towers, but SOME highlights don't do it, so you have an extraneous variable in the visual trees that mean neither and both at the same time.

It's ♥♥♥♥.

EDIT: I get how it works now, it's just really inefficient and visually a nightmare, and still have to remember manually all the different towers and which one upgrades to which without any obvious or intuitive reasoning.

Most games upgrade paths are intuitive, this one isn't and relies on memory of each upgrade path which isn't visually shown other than a highlighting 14 towers odd system rather than a direct tree system.

[Treyell]

i agree that the lightup system is terrible and i wish it was better

[Mortac]

I don't really use the upgrade system at all while playing. I mean, it happens, but I agree that the upgrading system feels clunky and that's why I always build towers directly instead of upgrading them unless I already know in advance that the specific upgrade path I'm after actually works.

I understand this game works a little differently compared to most TDs in that sense, but perhaps you should also change the way you play and save yourself the frustration you're apparently going through. I have played this game for a very long time and I can tell you that using the upgrade ladder really isn't necessary. It's just the way you look at and play the game that gives you all these frustrations and it might be easier if you just fundamentally think differently on how you play and build your towers.

[Arqwart]

Originally posted by TwistedHelix3:

Originally posted by Treyell:

no you dont if you open the tower table you can use your mouse and hover over a tower and see what elements it is made off, what towers upgrade into it and what towers it upgrades into. they towers just light up n the tree i would also prefer lines but thats what we got. its not nothing.

Right,

And guess what tower lights up when I hover over laser?

LIGHT, and LIGHTNING towers!

But I can't upgrade from Light or lightning to Laser.

Like I said, it makes zero sense and has terrible visuals.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835460022

The light tower is lit, I should be able to upgrade to laser. I can't. I have to go through other elements - which are also highlighted, but again, that means SOME highlights aren't enough, where SOME highlights are enough of the pre requisite to build the laser tower.

The issue is the function to tell the player what is required is to HIGHLIGHT the towers, but SOME highlights don't do it, so you have an extraneous variable in the visual trees that mean neither and both at the same time.

It's ♥♥♥♥.

EDIT: I get how it works now, it's just really inefficient and visually a nightmare, and still have to remember manually all the different towers and which one upgrades to which without any obvious or intuitive reasoning.

Most games upgrade paths are intuitive, this one isn't and relies on memory of each upgrade path which isn't visually shown other than a highlighting 14 towers odd system rather than a direct tree system.

Lightning isn't highlighted in that screenshot as part of Laser's upgrade line. It only has the "Suggested" glow that appears in the campaign, not the upgrade glowing box around it. Atom, Trickery, and Howitzer are highlighted with the upgrade glowing box.

And you 100% can upgrade to Laser from Light, just not directly. This is because 1-element towers can only upgrade to 2-element, 2-element to 3-element, and 3-element to 4-element. You can hop from Light to Howitzer to Laser. Light is highlighted in this case not because it can upgrade directly into Laser, but because it's "part" of the Laser tower via its three base elements. The tower system moves up in clear steps.

Gunna be honest here: at this point, it feels like you're intentionally trying to be angry at the game's presentation of information at every turn without any attempt to understand it. Aside from multi-element towers only dealing one element's damage, there's nothing truly obtuse here to understand with the systems or the presentation of information.

EDIT: adding in here a separate way to think about the upgrade system. Each multi-element tower has two core parts: its damage and its requirements. Laser is a Light-damage tower that requires Light, Dark, and Earth. Due to its damage, it's under the Light tower column. Due to its requirements, it can be upgraded to from Atom, Trickery, and Howitzer since those are two-element towers made up of two of Laser's requirements.

[Karawasa]

Originally posted by TwistedHelix3:

And guess what tower lights up when I hover over laser?

LIGHT, and LIGHTNING towers!

But I can't upgrade from Light or lightning to Laser.

Like I said, it makes zero sense and has terrible visuals.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835460022

Others have explained the system quite well but I just wanted to point something out here.

In your screenshot, Lightning is actually NOT highlighted. You spent points on it. We can remove the glow from the edges, giving color to the icon should be sufficient.

To see the difference, compare to Howitzer. Another tower you spent points on, but also upgrades into Laser and is therefore highlighted.

[ExoneratedPhoenix]

Originally posted by Arqwart:

Originally posted by TwistedHelix3:

Right,

And guess what tower lights up when I hover over laser?

LIGHT, and LIGHTNING towers!

But I can't upgrade from Light or lightning to Laser.

Like I said, it makes zero sense and has terrible visuals.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835460022

The light tower is lit, I should be able to upgrade to laser. I can't. I have to go through other elements - which are also highlighted, but again, that means SOME highlights aren't enough, where SOME highlights are enough of the pre requisite to build the laser tower.

The issue is the function to tell the player what is required is to HIGHLIGHT the towers, but SOME highlights don't do it, so you have an extraneous variable in the visual trees that mean neither and both at the same time.

It's ♥♥♥♥.

EDIT: I get how it works now, it's just really inefficient and visually a nightmare, and still have to remember manually all the different towers and which one upgrades to which without any obvious or intuitive reasoning.

Most games upgrade paths are intuitive, this one isn't and relies on memory of each upgrade path which isn't visually shown other than a highlighting 14 towers odd system rather than a direct tree system.

Lightning isn't highlighted in that screenshot as part of Laser's upgrade line. It only has the "Suggested" glow that appears in the campaign, not the upgrade glowing box around it. Atom, Trickery, and Howitzer are highlighted with the upgrade glowing box.

And you 100% can upgrade to Laser from Light, just not directly. This is because 1-element towers can only upgrade to 2-element, 2-element to 3-element, and 3-element to 4-element. You can hop from Light to Howitzer to Laser. Light is highlighted in this case not because it can upgrade directly into Laser, but because it's "part" of the Laser tower via its three base elements. The tower system moves up in clear steps.

Gunna be honest here: at this point, it feels like you're intentionally trying to be angry at the game's presentation of information at every turn without any attempt to understand it. Aside from multi-element towers only dealing one element's damage, there's nothing truly obtuse here to understand with the systems or the presentation of information.

EDIT: adding in here a separate way to think about the upgrade system. Each multi-element tower has two core parts: its damage and its requirements. Laser is a Light-damage tower that requires Light, Dark, and Earth. Due to its damage, it's under the Light tower column. Due to its requirements, it can be upgraded to from Atom, Trickery, and Howitzer since those are two-element towers made up of two of Laser's requirements.

"And you 100% can upgrade to Laser from Light, just not directly. This is because 1-element towers can only upgrade to 2-element, 2-element to 3-element, and 3-element to 4-element. You can hop from Light to Howitzer to Laser. "

Wrong.

You can't upgrade from 1 element to 2 element, from 2 element to 3 element.

I literally just explained how I went from Light, to Lightning, a "2 element tower" (that only has 1 element type damage) - and had no 3 element upgrade capability to 3 elemental tower.

The upgrade tree has nothing to do with elements and simply to do with pre-requisite towers. Which is fine, but make the visual trees in the game obvious to that, not 6 separate columns of elements with half accurate highlighting systems and no easy way to remember/visualise.

I have had to manually write down what random elements I need to switch to eventually get to a 3 elemental or 4 elemental (which only does 1 elemental damage) tower, or just buy one once I have enough cash from the spacebar quick tower menu.

The mechanic is dreadful.

"Gunna be honest here: at this point, it feels like you're intentionally trying to be angry at the game's presentation of information at every turn without any attempt to understand it. Aside from multi-element towers only dealing one element's damage, there's nothing truly obtuse here to understand with the systems or the presentation of information."

Think what you want to think, the game's presentation makes it hard to understand the logic and why I couldn't build the towers.

I play games like Factorio fine, which require a lot of grey matter and logical thinking. It has taken me hours to understand this system, and it's simply by the visuals of the upgrade paths not actually representing how it works at all.

[ExoneratedPhoenix]

Originally posted by Karawasa:

Originally posted by TwistedHelix3:

And guess what tower lights up when I hover over laser?

LIGHT, and LIGHTNING towers!

But I can't upgrade from Light or lightning to Laser.

Like I said, it makes zero sense and has terrible visuals.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835460022

Others have explained the system quite well but I just wanted to point something out here.

In your screenshot, Lightning is actually NOT highlighted. You spent points on it. We can remove the glow from the edges, giving color to the icon should be sufficient.

To see the difference, compare to Howitzer. Another tower you spent points on, but also upgrades into Laser and is therefore highlighted.

"We can remove the glow from the edges, giving color to the icon should be sufficient."

...What?

1. How does removing flow from edges make it any less confusing, and how is "giving colour" to the icon got anything to do with the issue at hand?

"o see the difference, compare to Howitzer. Another tower you spent points on, but also upgrades into Laser and is therefore highlighted."

...They're both highlighted.

Sorry, your sentence structure is strange, you're going to have to red circle an image as to how Lightning isn't glowing. I've just checked again and if I hover over Laser I can get the illumination of the Light towers to appear and disappear. They are definitely highlighted, as is the Howitzer.

This is my point about extraneous variables.

The Howitzer is assumedly highlighted to inform the player that it is a pre-requisite to the laser tower. The issue is that is paradoxical, or wrong, because other towers highlighted don't upgrade to laser tower.

And this is why I was confused for hours without a tutorial. There was seemingly no real link between why certain towers upgraded to others, and all the games visual clues had extraneous or paradoxical answers.

I assumed the highlights meant something, and they do I guess, but some highlights are simply wrong, as one cannot upgrade from that path.

highlights mean upgrade OR requisite, but not both. Maybe use a different colour highlight to denote which ones are the UPGRADE path, and which ones are the REQUISITE path, because having the same golden illumination for both functions means on cannot deduce the highlights function.