Backfire
Astute  [developer] May 18, 2013 @ 1:03pm
"Backfire" Stats
Welcome to the discussion page for the Spy sapper replacement, the "Backfire". Here I will go into greater detail about the stats I came up with for this weapon. Feel free to cheer/jeer this, or add your own ideas to the pile.


Backfire

Level 27 Sapper

Sabotage: Causes the target to miss-fire their primary weapon
Cannot be applied to structures
May only be applied while disguised


The sapper's purpose is to provide a stronger counter to enemy teammates, while trading away the ability to disable enemy equipment. It's a hefty trade, and should only be utilized against teams that lack engineer support, or their engineer support is fairly weak. One argument against this weapon would be, "Why not just stab the target?". This comes with inherent risk, which this sapper somewhat removes. It also allows you to disable multiple targets without actively giving away your position, or dying in the process. Some situations cannot be stabbed out of, such as killing an enemy Medic with a Pyro on constant watch, or killing a Heavy who has his back covered by a sentry.


Sabotage: Causes the target to miss-fire their primary weapon
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First and foremost, this weapon has quite a few unlisted caveats. The "Sabotage" effect would display a warning next to the ammo count for afflicted player the first time they fire their weapon after being sabotaged. Second, the effect only lasts for 15 or so seconds before being automatically removed. Third, using up 25% of one's primary ammo will remove the effect. Fourth, any healing received removes the effect. Many of these could be tweaked to lean the afflicted players towards different strategies(seeking health, waiting it out, or firing wildly).

The weapon would have a cooldown, similar to BONK or Sandvich, preventing from frequent spam, or locking down a whole team in one run. It can also not be reapplied or stacked. This means that the Spy would have to wait for the effect to wear off before applying again. Players under the effect of "Sabotage" would be revealed only to the Spy that sabotaged them. You can see the icon for this on title card in the video.

So what exactly happens when a person is sabotaged? Their primary weapon, AND only their primary weapon, would refuse to fire bullets/rockets/pipes/needles/fire. The muzzle effect would fire, but no bullet or explosive would leave the barrel. This could also be accompanied by a "Empty Clip" sound, similar to the ticking noise the minigun has when it is out of ammo.

There is an special, experimental case. This is totally optional, but Medics could have a special clause with "Sabotage". If a Medic is sabotaged, his primary will refuse to fire as normal. However, his healing target will also receive the effect of the Medic's sabotage. His target would lose their sabotage if they had it, but would gain the assisting Medic's sabotage instead. Essentially, a sabotaged Medic will spread the initial sabotage to his teammates for as long as the effect was active. It is debatable if this effect should chain through multiple Medics, though that seems a bit overkill.


Cannot be applied to structures
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Self-explanatory, as this is an anti-personnel sapper. This is what makes this sapper a stiff tradeoff, and should be chosen when fighting a strong offense, or fighting a team that doesn't have a strong engineer response. Choosing this sapper makes the Engineer a fairly hard counter to the Spy, versus the normal circumstances.


May only be applied while disguised
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Also self-explanatory, but with some caveats. The reason for this would prevent the Spy from running straight towards their target, undisguised, and locking down a target. This would be incredibly frustrating for Pyros or Heavies, who would normally get within sapper range of the Spy. The point of this sapper is not to give the Spy a free opportunity to block an enemy, but to reward them for meshing well and acting the part, timing their sabotage at the most critical moment. One could equate it to getting an enemy Medic to uber a Spy. It's a difficult maneuver, requiring timing and patience, but pulling it off is a strong blow to the enemy team's confidence.

Showing 1-15 of 83 comments
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Fist Mate [THOD] May 18, 2013 @ 2:10pm 
I really like the idea of an anti-personnel Sapper, and I think you have the right idea with hobbling weapons, but a few things could be different I think:
  • Disable the currently equipped weapon, not the primary - Just seems more logical.
  • Different Tells - I think a HUD icon would be a little too obvious for an advanced player, as the spy would be right next to them.
My alternative might also be to have weapons jump some number of degrees with every shot while the Backfire is active on them. It has a nice "Oh ♥♥♥♥" moment for the target, and it can safely be applied by a disguised spy back behind the front lines for great effect later. It would make Spy a potential counter for Solly & Demo especially, what with their penchant for self-demolition, which would be nice because they don't interact as much as they could, IMHO.
Also, this wouldn't necessarily require an explicit tell beforehand, as players could just test this by firing their weapons.

Whether or not the disguise caveat is necessary with this is open for discussion I think, as spie are quite fragile and could still be killed with some skill, depending on the strength of the inaccuracy.

I think a valid question for both our options is also whether or not there is a visible attachment to the enemies. Why I sap, I'm killed by others who saw the sappers more often than the engie himself.
Last edited by Fist Mate [THOD]; May 18, 2013 @ 2:10pm
Teresa of the Faint Smile May 18, 2013 @ 2:35pm 
Yeah, also you cannot sabotage an enemy who is already sabotaged. So the enemy has a chance to counter you by switching weapons.
Popopopper May 18, 2013 @ 5:36pm 
Maybe, instead of that, you could sap buildings, only while disguised, and with a short (2-3 sec) cooldown, and the sapper does not disable the building while it is being sapped, but all enemies within a certain range of the sapped building are prevented from using any weapon except their melee weapon.
RTd May 18, 2013 @ 7:54pm 
Level 27 Constructicus interuptus Sapperus
+ When Placed on a Buliding, Building will jam
When Jammed: Dispensers will not despense provisions.
Sentry guns will not fire but will still track enemy players.
Teleporters will teleport backwards. (enterances will become exits)
+ Enginers are not alerted to the sapper.
+ to remove the sapper the enginer must pick up building and put it down again.
- 100% Damage Penalty.
- Sapper Has a cooldown time of 20 seconds.
- Only two Sappers can be out on the battlefield at one time.
- When Enginers place the sapped Building again. It instantly goes a level up from it previous level. (Hence the name, The BackFire.)
kierannkkt(heavy) May 18, 2013 @ 8:46pm 
i always wanted to see a sapper that saps guns
Astute  [developer] May 18, 2013 @ 8:59pm 
EDIT: Well, that's a classic example of why you do not post at 5 am.
Last edited by Astute; May 19, 2013 @ 10:27am
np.A Giant Goose May 18, 2013 @ 10:13pm 
While this would be a very large undertaking and I wouldn't blame you at all for not doing this, I think it would be extremely intersting to add a cloaking device to this set that would give you an additional option with this sapper. I'm going to leave the bulk of the cloaking devices's stats to you but I was thinking that by using the whole item set you would be able to right-click to remotely trigger your sapper making you unable to right-click to cloak. This would obviously make for a completly new type of wacth but I think this would be really cool for the basis of this set being that you are going for a more classic and espionage based type of spy and introducing this would make diguising intregal to infiltration and remove the kind of futuristic aspect of the invisiwatches.
M1k3ol May 18, 2013 @ 10:54pm 
great idea!
Astute  [developer] May 18, 2013 @ 11:38pm 
@The Sandwich Man, I had a cloaking device idea in mind late in, but I figured it was time to turn in and call it a set. The cloaking device I had in mind would give you the ability to walk through enemy teammates for 10 seconds. The same cloak rules would apply, only you wouldn't be invisible.
Compatriot May 18, 2013 @ 11:40pm 
I would agree with the idea of it only being viable to block buildings. Reversing a teleporter can actually be very destructive if a member accidentlally walked onto it, and would prevent reinforcements from arriving on the battlefield while wasting time THINKING that the teleporter is working fine.
Mariachi Skeletron Prime May 19, 2013 @ 12:52am 
I'm not really sure... The main goal of the sapper is to sap buildings...
Hate to see engies going round saying: Spy's sapping mah heavy!
Zee Bonglord of Dopeweed May 19, 2013 @ 1:01am 
Originally posted by DeathByDispenser:
I'm not really sure... The main goal of the sapper is to sap buildings...
Hate to see engies going round saying: Spy's sapping mah heavy!
I suppose that would be medic yelling, not engineer.
nebvb May 19, 2013 @ 1:05am 
Originally posted by QueersMcBag:
I really like the idea of an anti-personnel Sapper, and I think you have the right idea with hobbling weapons, but a few things could be different I think:
  • Disable the currently equipped weapon, not the primary - Just seems more logical.
  • Different Tells - I think a HUD icon would be a little too obvious for an advanced player, as the spy would be right next to them.
My alternative might also be to have weapons jump some number of degrees with every shot while the Backfire is active on them. It has a nice "Oh ♥♥♥♥" moment for the target, and it can safely be applied by a disguised spy back behind the front lines for great effect later. It would make Spy a potential counter for Solly & Demo especially, what with their penchant for self-demolition, which would be nice because they don't interact as much as they could, IMHO.
Also, this wouldn't necessarily require an explicit tell beforehand, as players could just test this by firing their weapons.

Whether or not the disguise caveat is necessary with this is open for discussion I think, as spie are quite fragile and could still be killed with some skill, depending on the strength of the inaccuracy.

I think a valid question for both our options is also whether or not there is a visible attachment to the enemies. Why I sap, I'm killed by others who saw the sappers more often than the engie himself.
K. Appa the Rappa May 19, 2013 @ 8:42am 
Originally posted by Astute:
Big thing of text
Uh, wrong thread astute.
Astute  [developer] May 19, 2013 @ 10:27am 
Thank you, It took me way too long to catch that.
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