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Z.O.H.R.N
¡EvilBad¡  [開發人員] 2013 年 04 月 16 日 @ 下午 7 時 01 分
Drone Sound: Suggest!
What kind of a drone sound would you expect, so your ears don't start bleeding again?
最後修改者:¡EvilBad¡; 2013 年 04 月 16 日 @ 下午 7 時 01 分
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Sgt.Psycho 2013 年 04 月 17 日 @ 上午 2 時 39 分 
I'm no sound engineer, so cannot give you expert advice, but it sounds to me (those with science please excuse my fumbling) like you're using a perfectly-modulated sine or (more likely) triangle-wave, but simply shifting the frequency directly relating to the current slope under teh drone to pitch it up and down, giving it a very artificial and unnatural effect that's hard to listen to.

I think you need to alter not only the pitch but also the shape, and add in some 'roughness', some deviation to make it less digital and give it some more realism. It's hard to describe, but if you listen to, say, a cordless power tool or motor under load, you'll hear the start, spin-up, load, idling and cool-down phases. That's what the drone is missing now, it sounds like a purely mathematical model.

You might want to look at feeding the current slope and speed into an algorithm and seeing if you can approximate the low rpm 'growl' you get when driving a car labouring up a steep slope in too high a gear. Also, look into detecting traction and if there is none (airborne) let it race, max rpm, maybe try altering the height of the curve. I think you do this already with pitch, but it feels kind of like a dentist drill at times. Most players will correlate this with unpleasantness. (It's also why I can't watch F1, but hey...) Also bear in mind that most engines don't instantly adjust revs, so will tend to under-rev as they hit load, then over-rev as they come off load, and the governor will tend to lag behind what the vehicle is doing by a bit. Acceleration and deceleration SFX are what are also missing.

The best example is to take a look at how other similar SFX are done, Wall-E comes to mind - there's a lot of drone-like sounds in there with a lot of variation in movement. There's heaps of games and movies that have a similar effect, so take a look around and see what inspiration you can get for what seems futuristic but still 'natural' sounding to the ear.

I don't know much about sound production, but I imagine the next step is to either, a) find a library of sounds you like and licence it, or b) start sampling anything that sounds similar to what you want, then processing the doovyloo out of it with whatever software you can get.

The very distinctive sound of the TIE fighter was apparently just an elephant trumpet processed with a car engine, so have a go and see what you can come up with!
最後修改者:Sgt.Psycho; 2013 年 04 月 17 日 @ 上午 2 時 44 分
¡EvilBad¡  [開發人員] 2013 年 04 月 17 日 @ 上午 10 時 21 分 
< [...] modulated sine [...]

D' ouh, pretty close to what I've done, mixing it up with a little bit of noise in Audacity (without big success) and only bound to the pitch, hard to make it cheaper.

By reading your advices, I realize that I didn't take the sound serious enough due to a lack of interest, because I'm more a visual oriented person. Maybe a reason, why I didn't go mad when trying to sleep next to an roaring aircon in the oil camp in Malongo.

But separating the different sound phases of an engine like you describe it, sounds pretty interesting to investigate. For sure I'll try to find some sound libs as a starting point, but at the end I guess I've to mix them up probably in a procedural way to make something unique.

Thanx a lot for your detailed explanation, that was a lot better than a couple of sound links that I was hoping for.



¡EvilBad¡  [開發人員] 2013 年 04 月 17 日 @ 上午 10 時 54 分 
I think the bike races in the Freedom Project[www.imdb.com] are a good starting point. And oh, you're right, totally forgot about the Wall-E.

The fallback at high speed is a must.
Sgt.Psycho 2013 年 04 月 22 日 @ 上午 1 時 33 分 
¡EvilBad¡ 發表:
< [...] modulated sine [...]

D' ouh, pretty close to what I've done, mixing it up with a little bit of noise in Audacity (without big success) and only bound to the pitch, hard to make it cheaper.

By reading your advices, I realize that I didn't take the sound serious enough due to a lack of interest, because I'm more a visual oriented person. Maybe a reason, why I didn't go mad when trying to sleep next to an roaring aircon in the oil camp in Malongo.

But separating the different sound phases of an engine like you describe it, sounds pretty interesting to investigate. For sure I'll try to find some sound libs as a starting point, but at the end I guess I've to mix them up probably in a procedural way to make something unique.

Thanx a lot for your detailed explanation, that was a lot better than a couple of sound links that I was hoping for.

Heh, well I didn't think I would hit the mark, but hopefully I got the wall the target was on. :) A bit annoying so many people complained about the SFX, but couldn't be bothered making a constructive comment. Boo hiss.

Ah, I get what you mean now and it's true, sound is not something you normally focus on, its 'just there' and only noticed in it's absence. Try this: Watch a game or movie for a bit, then turn off the sound. Notice how suddenly it's less impressive, less immersive, and you're more easily distracted? The whole sound design in media is intended to support the visuals, without overpowering them. I think you need to decide what sounds will support the idea of your Zlug hunting.

By all means go procedural, but see if you can build in the phase changes to make it sound a bit more 'natural', even if the ZHOD doesn't really act like a car, making it sound a bit like one will make players feel more at home and familiar with it.

Here's a couple of quick articles I found about sound design and doing your own SFX:
http://filmsound.org/articles/designing_for_sound.htm
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/08/demystifying-sound-design/
http://www.epicsound.com/sfx/
Sgt.Psycho 2013 年 04 月 23 日 @ 上午 6 時 01 分 
Ah, new version!

I love the new drone sound, the vibrato gives it a very creepy, retro Dune-like sound a bit like the Hunter-Seeker, nice job! I notice you've also tweaked up the other sounds - the post placement is much better now.

Also saw the lavasun shots, I was just thinking yesterday a War of the Worlds-style "red weed" influence could be nice, and from your perspective switching colour palettes is relatively easy.

With the Zlug roasting, what do you think of adding a really loud wailing death-cry hooting noise, something a bit like the Spielberg Tripod noise[www.moviesoundclips.net] or a more processed synthetic version of ship fog horn[www.soundsnap.com] another sample[www.sanpedro.com]?

You could also go for a sampled whale noise (the right whale does that eerie trumpeting sort of call) and they would make great background/animation SFX. Give 'em a spin[www.whaleacoustics.com]
最後修改者:Sgt.Psycho; 2013 年 04 月 23 日 @ 上午 6 時 17 分
¡EvilBad¡  [開發人員] 2013 年 04 月 23 日 @ 上午 7 時 30 分 
Sgt.Psycho 發表:
¡EvilBad¡ 發表:
< [...]
...
Here's a couple of quick articles I found about sound design and doing your own SFX:
http://filmsound.org/articles/designing_for_sound.htm
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/08/demystifying-sound-design/
http://www.epicsound.com/sfx/
...

Thanx for the links! I read the articles carefully and will keep them in mind for the next sound mixing. Very funny to know what's the original source of various sfx-sounds.

I'm glad that you like the drone sound. I tried a lot of stuff, listening to hundreds of samples (also on soundsnap) for the basic sound and made a lot of weird, psychedelic stuff. At the end I had to confess, that for example the Tie-Fighter sound is extremely cool when it's passing by, but if you have to work all day in that can, it drives you crazy, like you said, F1-syndrom.

I'm mixing now a couple of samples:

A. 5 samples give the basic sound with the slow woom, woom in the idle mode, when the drone accelerates, it fades from one sample to the next, with a precalculated pitch (without changing the tempo of the sound) and some high pass filter.
B. A wroom sound, when the drone turns (mouse look). That simulates the stabilizer of the drone, which allows this g-force free, fast camera turns.
C. The deep 'vibrato'-sound, where the volume is bound to the slope and the velocity of the drone. When the drone is descending, I add a pitch wobble, so you get the feeling, the drone engine has to work less.

As you see, your input made me really think about sound, that was the kick into the right direction, e.g. using the slope and not just using the pitch like in a monkey car.

Zlug roasting: Yeah, this has to be more dramatic. Aah, a horn ... hehe, like the one in Red State[www.imdb.com] at the very end of the film? Will give a try. I'll also make tests to add particles/light to bring more action into the roasting.

One of the next steps is to improve the defense of the Zlugs. This graviton-shocks actually are a good defense and it really prevents the player from setting the fence. But visually it's a total failure. At least I need some visual shock wave burst, drone camera failure, crazy rotating when the drone is hit. And I think the Lava Zlugs should have kind of a fire defense.



Sgt.Psycho 2013 年 04 月 25 日 @ 下午 4 時 38 分 
I haven't seen it, but if you mean this (warning: spoiler!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItD6dQa5ncw
...yes that's pretty close to what I think would be cool, although that is a little drawn out to be useful in a game. The roasting itself needs a little more 'pow', wouldn't mind seeing the zliders underneath get zapped (why are they left running around?) and having some kind of SFX to go with it, it just seems a bit flat.

On the zliders, they seem just annoying more than anything. I like to think of them as an ♥♥♥-weasel analogue. See Dreamcatcher (spoilers!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkWMk4Azioc
Pay careful attention to the SFX. Notice the threatening, disgusting sounds? This is what I'd hope the zliders sound like, something that makes the player hate them coming near and want to kill them as fast as possible. Even the Minecraft Creeper "SSSSssss!" is simple and effective.

Here's another example, Another World (15th anniversary edition, you can look up the original too if you like)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1urIfF5e_4
Like ZOHRN, it has a very simple graphical style, but the sound design is what really 'makes' the game. Take a look at about 3:50 to see some nasty slug action.

I agree the zlug defense is really lacking atm. You go flying and there's no feedback to say how or why it happened. Sometimes it's so fast you don't even realise it has happened, except that the zlug is suddenly further away than it was a second ago. It needs some meaty SFX to illustrate what is happening, and a lot of camera kick/tilt/etc to impress on the player they have been attacked. If you plan to have ZHOD health, and let the wildlife degrade the drone, then maybe flashing some damage indicators, or highlighting damage in a health bar might also work.
¡EvilBad¡  [開發人員] 2013 年 04 月 26 日 @ 上午 11 時 47 分 
Sgt.Psycho 發表:
I haven't seen it, but if you mean this (Red State Video Scene)[...]

That's exactly the scene :-). True, needs some deep roar, rumble and moan and a wooom, with some extra breaks, maybe like the hiccup of the Shriekers in Tremors II (not the high frequency scream).

Sgt.Psycho 發表:
On the zliders, they seem just annoying more than anything. I like to think of them as an ♥♥♥-weasel analogue. See Dreamcatcher (spoilers!)
(Video Dreamcatcher)
Pay careful attention to the SFX. Notice the threatening, disgusting sounds? This is what I'd hope the zliders sound like, something that makes the player hate them coming near and want to kill them as fast as possible. Even the Minecraft Creeper "SSSSssss!" is simple and effective.
A good sample. LOL, in one of my very very early sketches I called them R.e.c.t.u.m.-Wookies[www.zohrn.com], not too far from the ♥♥♥-weasel, I even made a 3D model out of it, but the geometry was to complex to have plenty of them on the field, so I reduced the design to the Albino Zlider style. I tried one of this smacking sounds for the Zliders, but it didn't work out well, the high speed of the drone makes it difficult to hear them. And if they get close, they hit so fast, that the sound gets weird because of the Doppler effect. But good you came up with this weasels, I think I've a solution for that, I'll create a separate discussion thread called "Attack of the Albino Zliders".

Sgt.Psycho 發表:
[...] Another World [...]

Indeed, very good sound, in balance with the graphics. And he's killing slugs, perfect!

Sgt.Psycho 發表:
I agree the zlug defense is really lacking atm. [...]
See the new discussion thread "Attack of the Albino Zliders".
最後修改者:¡EvilBad¡; 2013 年 04 月 26 日 @ 上午 11 時 49 分
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