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GunZ 2: The Second Duel
Cotillion Dec 19, 2013 @ 9:58am
Ok... Now a reality check for all those that complain
The following post was made in a previous discussion, but I felt after posting that it actually warranted to be made a separate topic. So for the tl/dr crowd, the point of the matter is that there is far more to a game and its mechanic besides one derogatory word that most people have already forgot in the past 8 years of release, yet managed to describe the entirety of the game play. If you can't finish reading the rest of the post, don't waste your time arguing over 3 lines as most of us will just ignore you. Either way, good day and I hope you find the following discussion is informative.

Again, the topic is about a discussion on the entirety of the game mechanics, not about me defending some fool instaflipping 24/7. So if your argument is still about how people can spam skills, you have still not made any real attempt to read my post.

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People complain about everything regardless of their experience on the matter. If anyone even remotely thinks someone has an edge over them, they moan and whine. Oh, a game has a heavy class that takes twice as long to kill? "THEY ARE OP AS ALL HELL, (Game Developer) YOU SUCK FOR NOT BALLANCING!!!!!" Ever heard stupid comments like this? They are rampant and constant, never mind the fact that said character sprite or class can only move at 1/3rd speed and has a nerfed range.

The funny thing about k-style was that it wasn't some specific item that was op, nor was it a specific class, nor was it really exclusive weapons released only by devs on a tournament. In all intents and purposes, you can practically get anything you bloody wanted with work, aside from the prem phase where publishers drove the game into the bloody ground, but not a single one of these issues had anything whatsoever to do with the actual mechanics of the bloody game.

K-style was a set of movements and timing of button presses to make use of the original, but in some ways, broken system. This Maiet never fixed purely because EVERYONE could do it, and they bloody loved it. What, did all of you just want to play E-style and shoot largely inefficient guns that were built to spray while only jogging at half speed and rolling like an imbicile? If that is what you want, then by all means play something like S4-league. If you didn't even like the concept, why did you waste your time in playing, or ours in your constant whining and complaints?

90% of the derogatory terms in the original, back even before the Ijji era was 'Spray and Pray noobs.' So it is quite funny how everyone is now jumping on a band wagon denouncing the entirety of the core aspect of this game that made people play it for 8+ years while refusing to awknowledge the fact that without k-style, the game would have ceased to exist.

Next you have all of these people saying how they were pro and how they played for a long time. Well let me burst your bubble, in just the Euro/US version, the game has been out since 2005. Considering how limited the community was, in both technical difficulty and limitations of a non mass publicized game, anyone who has heard of this game and played even 2 hours of it will say that they played in the hay day. So I've played the original in k-gunz (pain in the ♥♥♥ to do), then in Igunz, then in Jgunz, also in Ijji gunz, then when they were transitioned over to Aeria for a few months, Aeria Gunz.

So here is a fun breakdown, a pro, or professional is an individual that is actually paid to compete and play against each other, if you call yourself that, then the original gunz community hated you as you were a pretender. If you spammed bf circle like an idiot without ever mixing it up or even trying other tactics, you were not a k-styler but a bf noob. If you spammed only rockets and abused lag, you were just a ♥♥♥♥♥. Hackers? Well only people who actually coded it were hackers, most were wretched people, some were not. People who used the hack tools made by others were leachers, the lowest of the low.

Simple fact is that, the core of the community hated people that abuse one skill and would kick them in the ♥♥♥ for it everytime the see it. See a hacker? Well buffer overrun his ♥♥♥ and get a designated friendly hacker to kick him out of the game. That was what we really did back in the hay day. See a dude spamming rls and smokes without aiming? Smack him to death with revs and move on. Not every k-styler bfd or used sgs. A lot of us were called turtlers or semi turtlers making good use of every mechanic we knew. Didn't like swords? Well kodachis and daggers had their own feel and style.

So long story short, most of you people complain with either half the information, or forgetting half the experience. K-style is just an amalgamated term to describe practically half the game, the good, the bad, the indifferent. Next time talk of the individual aspects rather than go on a ridiculous spiel about how everything was too hard or too unfair, for if this is your argument, why were you playing this game?

Do people complain about Starcraft because so many people can play it and ruin everyone else's time by knowing EVERY SINGLE hot key by heart? Same point, extremely technically challenged and diversed game play, but making the same arguments we use against k-style versus Starcraft would just get yourself laughed at. So please people, wait and think for a moment before your insult or post about something you have little understanding about. Everyone has an opinion whether it is informed or not, and the uninformed opinions do the most damage to those that need to know than anything else.
Last edited by Cotillion; Dec 19, 2013 @ 10:00am
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ShadowHawk Dec 19, 2013 @ 12:35pm 
Again, well said Cotillion, very well said! I wish people would take the time to read a whole post, not just a few lines or one paragraph and think they know completely what you're talking about. Good stuff!
JinNJuice Dec 19, 2013 @ 7:57pm 
I will try to provide an analytic response, so do keep in mind that I mean no offense.

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Yes, I think most of us can see for ourselves how everyone complains. Most are stupid, I'm sure people can tell. However, what about legitimate insights towards a certain aspect of gameplay? Sometimes, people pass those up as mere complaints without a basis. Not saying whether such insights would be right or wrong, but that's why people discuss and debate. At least, that's what I hope people do, instead of turning a good debate into a stupid battle of slander.

Anyways, true, K-Style wasn't an overpowered item, weapon, class, or such of the likes. However, I believe it would be fair to state that some weapons did in fact benefit more so than other weapons do, because obviously most weapons initially function differently. This is where the problem occurs. It doesn't matter whether it was hardcoded or discovered.

I'd also like to mention, yet again, that MAIET did try to implement a major patch "against" K-Style. The remaining playerbase complained, and MAIET reverted the changes. So, I guess using this incident holds no grounds. Moving on. Something that "everyone can do" does not exactly mean it is something that should exist. It's almost the exact opposite of the other aspects of the gameplay, where with such things as E-Style, everyone can do it, but it shouldn't be done because it is obsolete. With such a thing like K-Style, sure. Everyone can do it, but doing so ultimately limits the majority of the game's content, due to its nature of unbalancing empowerment. But hey, I do like how K-Style was an inspiration to higher levelled gaming. So yeah, I'm not saying that K-Style is entirely bad. Sadly, it is technically mostly bad.

My favorite derogatory term, or I guess in this case a phrase, in GunZ 1 is "A rose for your death". It was such a cheesy and overstated phrase that I found this more comedic as a way to call people noobs, so I could never take it seriously. Err... That was off topic. Anyways. The cold hard truth; K-Style actually cut off I'd say about 70% of its initial playerbase. You can thank the remaining playerbase for keeping the game alive. Don't thank K-Style. I mean, there are still crappy games and crappy companies, thanks to the people that "support" them, not thanks to the games' and/or companies' efforts... to an extent. Yes, experience can help out too. Usually, it does more often than not.

Personally, I don't give a rat's ♥♥♥ about the length of time that people play a certain game. In fact, GunZ 1 is a very great example of how long-term experiences can easily fall short to "newborn geniuses", or technically... more LOGICAL thinking players that figure things out. Some of the best players, if I recall correctly, have started in 2006-2007, not 2005... or 2003 as some people would claim. Wooo~ Alpha build days!

I won't say much about hackers, or more accurately; script kiddies. They're mostly irrelevant towards gameplay, and it's not like they're actually part of the community that are PLAYING the game. But anyways, about people "spamming the same skill", well... sadly, most of the time, they were attempting to test one aspect of a style out to determine its uses. Even more sad was that sometimes it did work out. There isn't as much mixing it up as there is just adding another move before, after, or into a move.

So can we go back to complaining about GunZ 2? I mean, GunZ 2 does have a set of problems of its own. At least, this time, we can make an actuall difference. I'm just hoping that difference will be fore better, not for worse. I've made extensive lists of various problems within several aspects of the game in its current entirety of a build. Sure, it's a beta, and that is to be expected, but still... It's better to keep note of it all. Raise attention on the problems at hand. Discuss pros and cons about the problems. Forumlate possible solutions or alleviations.

So I don't really think "uninformed opinions" actually have a major impact. We still have people, like you and I, that have a more logical thought process.
Cotillion Dec 19, 2013 @ 10:45pm 
Oh, just remembered to edit this to tack on a tl:dr portion for people who hate walls of texts like children hate showers or baths:

==========tl:dr begins==========

So without having everyone to actually read through the rest of this post (feel free if you wish to) let us limit further arguments over k-style and its concept being good or bad, and focus primarily on the current game of Gunz 2. If you wish to speak of k-style, please actually specify what in particular do you mean and why you want it incorporated or influence the current build of Gunz 2. If you want to just reminesce, that is another story, and do it in appropriate threads; at least if it is sensible for the topic at hand.

So that aside, talking points were the issues of reviews by the masses, the overshadowing of Gunz2 by its predecessor, the state of understanding of k-style and how it oversimplifies the larger complexity of the game in its entire, and misrepresentings of facts.

=========tl:dr finished=========

Every single time I tried to calmly review or argue about the current status of Gunz2: the second duel, I would just be surrounded by posts either arguing over bring back k-style, posts hating on k-style, or people just saying that this is the beta, every thing will be perfect in the end with rainbows in the sky, bunnies popping out of the ground and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ candy out of their ♥♥♥♥. It irked me to no end how little people actually cared about what was honestly wrong or good with the current game.

The reason behind my posting of this topic is sort of two fold. First I wanted to make some attempt to do away with the constant nagging and squabbling of people pro/against k-style. It is almost on every thread and most of it is actually slander and spam towards other members. It ruins discussions and wastes everyone's time. Second, I wanted to bring attention to people that Gunz 1 and 2 are different games, they are not inter-related, and that you have to think of it as such. At best, it is a spiritual successor with COMPLETELY different gameplay and mechanics. Too many people are trying to judge Gunz 2 with rose colored glasses (nothing to do with your idiom) and keep spouting about how Maiet can never be wrong, or that the current game doesn't actually exist for them. It is absolutely maddening, especially for anyone trying to honestly review and give ideas to the Maiet staff and possible playerbase. The worst case scenario is on the other side of the spectrum with people just trolling by saying 'tiz gsme suxor, icnt blive ppl play ths blls#!t' with or without the bad spelling, grammar or utter lack of brain cells. They also don't like to even add anything remotely helpful like W.H.Y. they did not like it, or W.H.A.T. the problems were.

Anyways, I originally started in 2005, held off for a year and around the time of summer of 2006 I came back on and played far more heavily from there on forth. So I understand entirely on what you mean by the generations of players and way of thinking. In some cases this does mean something, especially in regards to experiencing how the community was at different stages of both the game and where it was respectively. International gunz was far, far different from the Ijji era, and even the Ijji era was almost a complete contrast from its original start with 6+ servers with at least 2k on per at any point of time, to the release of overpriced prem meds at 8x efficiency that removed 70% of the player base. As for if you don't believe me, look it up yourself. Yes hacking was part of it, but that was a common occurrence since the release of the game. It was kind of a major deal, but the game kept pulling us back in.

With regards to the concept over arguing over individual issues, please do. Putting everything under one grab bag term like k-style is both misrepresenting the issue, and does little to help anyone aside from creating more hysteria from self appointed fanboys that are mosh pitting over one side or the other of k-style=good, or k-style=the-pit-of-hell. The issue (or question) of the entirety of the Gunz1 mechanics being good for the player base is a tough thing to discuss. For one, because of the sheer difference and technical difficulty, you had a very die hard community that lasted for over 6 years, even while the game at release was already outdated, due to being made by what was effectively an indie company. If the gameplay was more streamlined, then it could have possibly been another S4 league, might get some looks, but passed on over time. This is why I personally use the explanation of niche games and communities. At what point is it safe to change it to something enough people will like? I don't envy Maiet in trying to do this. Gunz1 was a miraculous blunder. No one expected it, but it came to be something far beyond what was intended, for good or bad. We can argue over the individual issues, such as gun ballancing, but it seems a tad moot now. Though, personally I thought every weapon can be used properly and effectively with enough skill and practice. Guns like sgs and rls were just overused as they were very easy to spam with less skill. I preferred revs myself, and have used rifles at times when bored. Didn't effect my k/d much between changing my arsenal.


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Be forewarned, the following portion of the post is about comments concerning the original gunz game and concerns in regards how people over simplify the concepts of the game:

Just a quick comment on my personal experience of k-style. I thought of everything as just an overall tool, a move or part that can be used as a whole. I hated when people tried to coin their own styles when it was in all intents and purposes just an old 'style' with maybe a stupid jump or slash involved. For me, the real game and system was not in trying to make some stupid video of yourself trying to look cool but to use everything you know in both angles, timing and movement to fight and counter the enemy. The slash angles and manipulation of distance with the block system, the timing of reload spamming while locking a few animations, linking and limiting dash and sequences to trip up opponents.

What ruins it is just people trying to simplify everything into just one move everyone sees people doing. Such as tbf or quad bf and thinking that is everything to the game. In how many cases is that trash usefull? You going to do that while chasing an opponent? What about a castle map in a tdm where you are the last on your team with 4 enemies still alive on the other side. You are out of ammo and dont want to get pegged. You are then wall running/kitting near the bridge. Head under the bridge then wall run up vertically, bounce off, roll toward wall, reflex bounce, reload weapon, reroll forward during reload and rebounce and quick switch weapons, then slash+jump, get back to the fighting. Doing all of this barely 2 inches (or one foot) from insta death into the pit. That is just one example of using the large complexity of the game, and I will be very surprised if many people even understand what I just explained there. This complexity, this freedom of options and possibilities was absolutely mesmerizing.

How about a gladiator match, not just two people circle bfing each other and hoping you hit them more than they hit you. More of two people facing off and first hit tab to check ping. If ping is over 200 (in relation to you, as this of course is distance relative to connection strength) then you imagine maybe a half second delay in hit registration. 300+ maybe 1 to 2, 600, just suck it up and face the hell. So let's say ping is decent, maybe direct hits or half a sec to a sec off. Now the two see who makes the first move. The opponent is more aggressive, takes a first blood approach and dashes forward and quickslashes the opponent to either break gaurd or garner a reaction. Shift dash to the right in case look animation froze, try to get a string of hits or prepare to gaurd against a reflex massive. The other player breaks contact, does a no block slash+dash for the higher distance movement. Revert to dbf and manages to get three good hits. Opponent then tries to see if he can insta the enemy, Jump/uppercut, half second to block, shift position a tad, aim and slash to cancel animation. It fails. Player then returns to turtling and slashes (with delayed blocks to increase dash distance) as he quickly dashes around his opponent. All of this happening in a manner of seconds, and all of this just testing the ice. Games in gunz1 wasnt just spamming bf or spamming sgs like some ♥♥♥♥♥♥. It was truly a fight and a personal vendetta to be better than others.

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Final comment is not directly related to the topic at hand, just a reply in kind.

Jin, I have never, and will never, take your responses as an insult unless you actually formulate and mean it as one. Even if opinions directly contrast, as long as it is given in an effective and reasonable manner, I will never deny or ignore it. Opinions can always change, and there are few things as unbreakable as unnatural laws are. If you can or will not accept, or at least attempt to understand a differing opinion or reasoning, then you should never be in a debate; however, there are a majority, and an overwhelming one at that, that do. This is true both in real life and especially so online with the cloak of anonymity ever prevalent. The honest truth of the world is that obnoxious, overthetop and flailing ignorance always prevails over calm reasoning. The former is just more noticeable and obvious, hence is one possible reason why humanity as a whole repeat mistakes.

Having a lot of people spamming useless comments makes the job for Maiet devs to peruse the comments board much harder. That is just one negative aspect, sometimes devs make the mistake thinking that because there is such an outcry, that everyone thinks the same way. A rule of thumb over critique in reviews is that most people either easily give it positives without reviews without much detail, or they come in droves to insult or derail. People are normally far more passionate at being inflammatory and negative than otherwise. It is a sad reality, but negative criticism is far more common to be noted enmasse.
Last edited by Cotillion; Dec 19, 2013 @ 11:08pm
JinNJuice Dec 20, 2013 @ 12:08am 
Ahh, it'll be fine. I think I've been giving the most feedback, or at least one of the most. Pretty sure MAIET and P7S1 see me as beneficial. I've proven my worth, so my words are strong to them. I've extensively examined the game and created many various feedback and suggestions in hopes to better the game. Other than the mindless "K-Style elitists", people know what I research are very helpful.
Cotillion Dec 20, 2013 @ 10:07pm 
I'm glad to hear that you might make a bit of a difference. Personally I feel that any comments or suggestions I make fall on deaf ears (well blind eyes, as this case may have it). Regardless, I would post more, or even give direct responses to devs or whoever they have checking and testing the beta.

I believe a good possibility is for Maiet to select people that they found informative and focus on trying to go with more in depth testing and reviews with them. Ijji attempted something akin to that, but only in california and by paying them, both of which a ridiculous mistake. Maiet can easily find guinea pigs that will work for free to test and help out purely in the hope that we may help make a game that may at least partly let us relive the glory days of the original game. Also if they also did this with random players, like a lotto and tried to get direct input, they may find more advice and experience to work with.

Doubt that will happen, but just something I thought worthy of a comment.
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