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Hammerwatch
BEEEEEES 1 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 10:11pm
class balance feedback 1.02 - survival
I know survival isn't really tuned yet. That being said, feedback on survival in 1.02 with 2 other players.

[Warlock] is a completely superior wizard that has tons of hp/mana, can heal itself, and has huge AoE spells. The long range of the chain lightning ball completely erases any negative from being melee. My friend (wizard) and I (paladin) never made it past wave 6, but my friend (warlock) carried onward without us and beat survival. It pretty much felt like we 2 were actually a detriment while alive.

This class needs a serious nerf or everyone else needs a serious buff.

[Wizard] is an inferior Warlock, and by a large margin the worst class. Low hp coupled with low range and no survival fallback. Meteor is awesome but it takes so long to cast you never get it off before 2 stray projectiles kill you.

This class needs more range!

[Paladin] Hands down the worst class in survival. Unblockable magic homing orbs are freakin' lame! This class needs better ways to deal with huge swarms of projectile vomiting mobs! The dilemma is this: rank 2 shield is the minimum requirement for taking on projectile spewing hordes, but to afford it, I need to forsake everything else. When some 14 damage melee mob starts running up as I'm closing in on a projectile horde, I have to run or they'll kill me before I kill them - but turning my back means I'll get gunned down by the tidal wave of projectiles I was trying to wade through to get close enough to hit something. It sucks! I feel like all I can do is run around the edge of the map waiting for my ranged friends to kill almost everything.

I wish Paladin ability 1 was just "freakin' be invincible for a few seconds" because charge doesn't: (A) do very much damage at all in 3-player survival, (B) doesn't pass through enemies unless you kill them, which is a huge problem even outside of survival, but especially in 3-player survival because of (A).

I know survival isn't really tuned or anything, but it made plain-as-day the issues above.
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rskoraji 1 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 10:26pm 
@Warlock:I Agree, and disagree. He has high survivability, high sustain, and high damage. I mean, that's just op. He really doesn't seem to fit any role and can easily be awesome by himself.

@Wizard: I disagree, in videos he's actually insane later on in the game, kind of a low survivability high damage kind of class. And that's what he's suppose to be and what he appears to grow into on the later levels. and really if you can just dodge projectiles, he can easily do work. Though one does not simply dodge projectiles on wave 6....

@Paladin: That's not true, survival would be nearly impossible without his heal. I do hate how he has no ranged attacked, but to me that's a part of his class. With his very ability set he's kind of meant to be used as a tank\support kind of role. He can heal both himself and teammates, so there's no reason to not act like a meatshield from time to time. He also can block projectiles and charge in or out of bad situations. Can't say I'm a big fan of his spin2win ability though, but I haven't used it, just read it and watched my brother use it, lol.

In the end I feel like the game is supposed to have its different classes, what's the point of a team dungeon game if everyone is exactly the same? I love to see these different roles in different classes. Would be pretty lame if every class did the exact same thing. Infact that's completely against the point of a "Class".
bountyskater 2 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 10:40am 
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย rskoraji:
@Wizard: I disagree, in videos he's actually insane later on in the game, kind of a low survivability high damage kind of class. And that's what he's suppose to be and what he appears to grow into on the later levels. and really if you can just dodge projectiles, he can easily do work. Though one does not simply dodge projectiles on wave 6....

Which videos are you talking about? The ones from the developers? Dude these are old, that argument is completely invalid. And even if it is still the case it doesnt change the fact that the wizard needs a buff for the first act and then maybe a nerf for the later ones. Beeeees is right, the wizard is the worst although it is silly to say it since he only played survival which is imbalanced and not as important as the campaign right now. I really dont think the wizard needs more range tho, I think he needs a different first spell, fire breath really doesnt do the job mainly because it is just like the wizards normal attack but worse, since it costs mana. If you look at every other characters special attack you see that they all have completely different things, and I also dont think the paladin needs a ranged attack, it would kind of ruin his character.

I still believe fire breath of the wizard should be changed to some kind of a long ranged beam/shockwave etc. Something along those lines.
rskoraji 2 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 10:52am 
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย NevermorE:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย rskoraji:
@Wizard: I disagree, in videos he's actually insane later on in the game, kind of a low survivability high damage kind of class. And that's what he's suppose to be and what he appears to grow into on the later levels. and really if you can just dodge projectiles, he can easily do work. Though one does not simply dodge projectiles on wave 6....

Which videos are you talking about? The ones from the developers? Dude these are old, that argument is completely invalid. And even if it is still the case it doesnt change the fact that the wizard needs a buff for the first act and then maybe a nerf for the later ones. Beeeees is right, the wizard is the worst although it is silly to say it since he only played survival which is imbalanced and not as important as the campaign right now. I really dont think the wizard needs more range tho, I think he needs a different first spell, fire breath really doesnt do the job mainly because it is just like the wizards normal attack but worse, since it costs mana. If you look at every other characters special attack you see that they all have completely different things, and I also dont think the paladin needs a ranged attack, it would kind of ruin his character.

I still believe fire breath of the wizard should be changed to some kind of a long ranged beam/shockwave etc. Something along those lines.

Never said paladin needed a ranged attacked, in fact you only repeated what I said. and the Wizard is very powerful in the first act, his damage is too high to warrant increased survivability. as it stands the wizard is balanced in an extreme manor. amazing damage but 0 survivability. And his first spell is insanely powerful, just watch how quickly it takes out spawners..
ได้รับการแก้ไขครั้งสุดท้ายโดย rskoraji; 2 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 10:53am
BEEEEEES 2 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 6:50pm 
It doesn't matter how much damage you do, if you can't survive to do it. How often can you stand around spraying fire breath with no aggro for 3 seconds?

As a Paladin, I wish I could taunt or something to let you do that, but I can't really.

I openly admit that things are a little different in campaign, where enemies are mostly coming from 180 degrees up front - but that won't always be true.

"@ paladin" comments:

1. If "healbot" is really going to be the purpose of paladin, make it his first ability instead of charge.

2. charge is extremely unreliable for quickly getting into or out of groups because it doesn't carry you through unless you kill the target. This is amplified x 100 when enemies have a LOT more health in hard difficulty or due to scaling with number of players in survival.

3. block requires a LOT of investment before you can reliably soak projectiles from a swarm because things are coming at you from a wide angle, especially if you try to close in to hit something. Block also doesn't block everything - so you can't even be a shield for the team when projectiles are flying around that can't be blocked (magic orbs in survival, boss worm poison, trap arrows in campaign). I can't use anything I've invested so much in during those scenarios - and then I don't have the damage soak, damage output, or move speed to really do anything - I'm just left running around hoping other players can finish things off basically without me.

I really, really wish all the Paladin abilities were more CONSISTENT: Charge always carries you through. Block stops _everything_ in the angle of coverage, but costs mana.
rskoraji 2 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 7:33pm 
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย BEEEEEES:
It doesn't matter how much damage you do, if you can't survive to do it. How often can you stand around spraying fire breath with no aggro for 3 seconds?
Very frequently, the attack time on worms is around 3 seconds. and you have a time of around 1.5 seconds to flare out fire for the butt pokers. It's a great ability and is insanely useful.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย BEEEEEES:
As a Paladin, I wish I could taunt or something to let you do that, but I can't really.
Enemies target the closest person, makes it really simple.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย BEEEEEES:
I openly admit that things are a little different in campaign, where enemies are mostly coming from 180 degrees up front - but that won't always be true.
Not as though it makes a difference.


โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย BEEEEEES:
"@ paladin" comments:

1. If "healbot" is really going to be the purpose of paladin, make it his first ability instead of charge.
Let's take away anyform of challenge. I like that idea.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย BEEEEEES:
2. charge is extremely unreliable for quickly getting into or out of groups because it doesn't carry you through unless you kill the target. This is amplified x 100 when enemies have a LOT more health in hard difficulty or due to scaling with number of players in survival.
Ohh, so you want charge to take you into the middle of 50 enemies, I agree, that's what it should do.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย BEEEEEES:
3. block requires a LOT of investment before you can reliably soak projectiles from a swarm because things are coming at you from a wide angle, especially if you try to close in to hit something. Block also doesn't block everything - so you can't even be a shield for the team when projectiles are flying around that can't be blocked (magic orbs in survival, boss worm poison, trap arrows in campaign). I can't use anything I've invested so much in during those scenarios - and then I don't have the damage soak, damage output, or move speed to really do anything - I'm just left running around hoping other players can finish things off basically without me.
The real problem is in you not learning how to play the paladin... none of these things are actually an issue..

ได้รับการแก้ไขครั้งสุดท้ายโดย rskoraji; 2 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 7:33pm
Labraid 3 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 12:38am 
All I gotta say is agrueing over a beta is lolz. ♥♥♥♥♥ imba atm ♥♥♥♥ wont be when it comes out hopefully and if it is it will be fixed over time get your head outa your asses, its beta. beta is beta, you act like this is a ♥♥♥♥ing rogue type game its not you have lives and if you arent bad you can easily do survival on every class, I've done it with every class with double damage but I've also done it without double damage with wizard warlock and ranger paladin seems to have problems cause unblockable magic, maybe he needs a magic shield block added into the shield part or just an upgrade at lvl 2 or a very cheap upgrade after getting the first shield block, regaurdless its really not that big of a problem as I said its BETA...
BEEEEEES 3 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 12:44am 
> Please explain how swapping charge and healing makes things less challenging?
> Things coming from mostly one < 180 degree arc does make a pretty big difference for Paladin in campaign. Block is by degrees, no mystery here.
> I issue you a simple challenge to undeniably illustrate this problem: beat survival without spending 20 minutes running around on magic orb spam waves. Sure, it can be done - but no other class has a situation where they are so laughably ineffective.
flamespeedy 3 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 12:23pm 
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Labraid12:
All I gotta say is agrueing over a beta is lolz. ♥♥♥♥♥ imba atm ♥♥♥♥ wont be when it comes out hopefully and if it is it will be fixed over time get your head outa your asses, its beta. beta is beta, you act like this is a ♥♥♥♥ing rogue type game its not you have lives and if you arent bad you can easily do survival on every class, I've done it with every class with double damage but I've also done it without double damage with wizard warlock and ranger paladin seems to have problems cause unblockable magic, maybe he needs a magic shield block added into the shield part or just an upgrade at lvl 2 or a very cheap upgrade after getting the first shield block, regaurdless its really not that big of a problem as I said its BETA...

yes but its good to argue and disscus because it helps the devs see what the community thinks and helps change things for the better.
SpookiScariEevee-Skeletons 3 มิ.ย. 2013 @ 2:40pm 
I agree with the wizard statment.
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