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Almighty Tallest Jul 17, 2013 @ 9:39pm
New Sapper idea
I've noticed that all classes in tf2 have viable fighting options when it comes to their secondaries that help them win battles, except for the spy, which is stuck with the sapper (which only affects engie buildings). So to make him more destructive, how about a new sapper?

This sapper would attach to players and buildings alike. When attached to players, it would begin draining their ammo from their current weapon, as well as any weapon that requires ammo (the drain rate could be determined for fairness). The only way to remove the draining effect would be to switch to their melee weapon (or any weapon that does not require ammo, like the wrangler, the cow mangler, etc). This also means that players that have their melee or limitless ammo weapons out could not be sapped. The idea behind this would be two-fold: first, it could serve as a supporting role by allowing friendlies to gain the advantage in a full-on fight (think heavy-medic combo faceoff). Secondly, it could help the spy escape from enemies on to him. The time it takes to remove the sapper through switching could probably allow the spy to get away (think heavy rev up time).

For buildings, the sapper would first disable the building. However, instead of damaging it, it would function similarly to human enemies by draining sentry gun ammo, dispenser health and ammo, and stopping teleporters from going. in this sense you would be trading building destruction for survivability/enemy combat.

Downsides could be debated, but the one that stands out to be the most balanced is a charge time between saps (like in mann v machine). But not too extreme: perhaps 2 seconds between saps, so that way spies couldn't just keep blatantly sapping people.

This sapper would be especially useful on maps where engies are not commonly played. On the flip side, itwould also help disable mini sentries (like the red tape recorder) while taking their ammo, making the engie powerless until he removed the sapper.

What do you think? Any ideas towards this main idea are appreciated.
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Labraxadores Jul 18, 2013 @ 1:42am 
First, answer two questions:

1. Can the Sapper be removed from a player? If yes, how?
2. How fast would the sapper drain ammo?
Almighty Tallest Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:49pm 
I mentioned earlier that it would be removed by the player switching to their melee weapon or any weapon that does not require ammo. However, if there is another way it could be done, or adjusted to avoid quickswitching all the time, i am all ears for suggestions. As for the drain rate, it would have to be significant enough to wanna force players to switch, but not too extreme, otherwise it would ridiculously OP. I was thinking maybe 1/20th per second of ammo depleted, or maybe 1/10th per second (think heavy or pyro down to 190 or 180 ammo in a second). Like I said before, it has to be enough to actually do any effect to a player but not to the point where its ridiculous to fight a single spy with your primary/secondary weapon. Maybe the sapper could be silent to help this, but there are definitely counters, with classes like the degreaser pyro, or pure demoknights.
Almighty Tallest Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:53pm 
Also, for buildings, the drain rate could be debated, but time-wise I think a sentry should stand for at least 10-12 seconds (about same as RTR) as well as a dispenser. Teleporter could just be disabled and destroyed with the revolver. The idea is the sentry would not lose building health and still be standing once depleted which would make it unable to fire. The sapper could be removed in three hits instead of two, since the building would technically not be destoyed (making the homwrecker require two hits). I think spy just needs a sapper that doesn't applyto one class.
GamerDweeb Jul 18, 2013 @ 4:50pm 
It's a really great idea that sounds like it would be extremely useful for an offensive spy (especially if your playing as a saharan spy). But in my opinion, I think it would be better if the sapper not only drains a victims ammo but health as well (probably really slowly). Also once the sapper is attached,it would disable their weps. This would leave the victim forced to only use their melee weapon or anything else that doesn't need ammo (like the sandvich, but not including weps such as the cow mangler or pomson). And the only way the sapper could be removed is by another teammate hitting it with their melee (I'm guessing the sapper has to be attached like a back-stab) I do see one problem such a people harassing enemy players by constantly placing it on them, so maybe there should be a certain amount of sappers you get (amount you can carry debatable) or the sapper has to recharge before it can be used again. Again, this is an excellent idea especially since there are only two different sappers, not including the App Sapp.
One more thing, if you'd like, please read my idea for a new heavy weapon.
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/discussions/-1/864973760911739374/?appid=440
Almighty Tallest Jul 18, 2013 @ 6:17pm 
that wouldn't be some bad tweaks. I'd try avoid using health though, since a reevolver or any other teammate could do way more damage in that instance than a sapper could. I like the idea of teammates working with each other to remove the sapper, but that can limit players a lot sometimes, so it may be a bit OP. I also enjoy the disabling of their weapons, as long as it isn't coupled with the sapper being immovable by ordinary means. good ideas to add though
Labraxadores Jul 19, 2013 @ 5:31am 
Simply switching weapons would make the weapon underpowered, as it takes a really fast time to switch to melee (especially for people like me who bind M3 to melee).

I'd suggest to make it un-removable and removable at the same time. How?

It's simple: what if this sapper won't stay attached technically forever, but only for a set amount of time, enough to remove, say, 100 ammo from an Heavy's machinegun? Well, if the Heavy notices that, we could make it so he has to shoot 50 ammo to get rid of the sapper. That way, he will only lose 50 instead of 100 ammo. The bullets shot while under the sapper's effect would do no damage. That way, it would disrupt enemies' actions, but not provide a free out-of-jail card for the Spy.

Now, for Demoknights and other weapons (Mad Milk, Cow Mangler, Pomson) and probably Engies (as they have unholy amounts of ammo for their weapons), the sapper could deplete something else, such as the charge bar of the weapon or, in the case of Engies, their metal reserve. For example, if a full Demoknight gets sapped, the Targe/Screen's charge bar will become red for some seconds. If the Demoman doesn't charges for an X amount of time, the charge bar will start to slowly empty itself. The same goes for all other weapons which use a bar. I'm a bit undecided regarding doing the same for Ubers, they're way more game changing than Jarate or charges.

Almighty Tallest Jul 19, 2013 @ 6:21pm 
BTW, someone pointed earlier that backstabbing someone at this range would be better than sapping them in the first place. My view on this is for those situations where the enemy is aware of you and is trying to gun you down: this sapper would be more of a deterrent of pursuers. It would pair nicely with the spycicle (for pursuing pyros) as well as for enemies camping around sentry nests.

@Lab: i agree with your idea of changing the removal process. I will also add that I saw some good ideas from other people who have thought about this idea before. One would be to disable enemy weapons when applied, but with a cool down time between saps as well as removal through the death of the spy. On eidea I thought that was cool but probably OP was a "Sapper transmitted Discretely", and would spread through enemy players if the oringally sapped player came in contact with his team. This discussion is more for fun though, since Valve will probably never change the function of the sapper unless it was to balance a new gameplay style.
Labraxadores Jul 20, 2013 @ 4:44am 
Personally, I'd like see this more as a disruption sapper, where you screw with the enemy team while undercover to sabotage them. It would indeed be a radical change in playstyle; the spy would turn from an assassin making single attacks on certain targets to a sabotator applying debuffs to the enemies.
GamerDweeb Jul 20, 2013 @ 7:31am 
I agree with Talon, that the new sapper would be more of an escape tool than anything. I also liked the idea of having the sapper spread like a virus, but I could see that annoying many people by literally leaving their entire team vulnerable to just about anything. So maybe the infection of the sapper should be limited, similar to when a spy sapps a robot in Mann vs. Machine. So when the spy attaches a sapper to an enemy player, it would also affect anyone nearby and maybe sentries as well.
Almighty Tallest Jul 20, 2013 @ 12:02pm 
good ideas
ZHENWEI9 Jul 22, 2013 @ 3:31am 
what about a small sapper tiny less damage but can't remove until hit the sapper directly
head on ( hit 4 time to remove)
Almighty Tallest Jul 22, 2013 @ 9:42am 
@GamerDweeb: Now that you mention the radius idea, that would be terrific for camping engies as well as pyros. Maybe it could be a sapper that couldn't attach to bilding, but could affect them if a player near was hit with the sapper, like the Engie. The engie would be forced to leave his building in order for them to still be functional, allowing the spy to support his team and reduce camping around a sentry spot
|Cy4G| Major ZERO HATES PONIES Jul 24, 2013 @ 5:08pm 
this is very op i had a sapper idea that im gonna list for the hell of it

dgitized dynopack
explodes on contact with wrench
-100 sapper power
the legaendDARY PIE ! Jul 25, 2013 @ 12:22am 
good
MrGame&Foker Jul 31, 2013 @ 5:43pm 
The spy is special in sabotage , the idea is great :
But better than the sapper has a life time, only for 5 seconds drains ammo
The rate of drainage of ammunition may be linked to how much life has the spy

Spy Sapper: The saboteur

Drains ammo to the weapon it was placed
The rate of drainage of ammo linked to how much life has the spy
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Date Posted: Jul 17, 2013 @ 9:39pm
Posts: 25