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Keavon Mar 9, 2013 @ 9:47am
Greenlight Should Be Optional
Now that Greenlight has been out for months, people have stopped voting, and it's obviously dying or already mostly dead. Don't completely remove Greenlight, but allow developers and publishers to submit games the old way with the Steamworks submission form. It would be benificial to those developers, to us players, and to Steam itself.
Showing 1-15 of 53 comments
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C0untzer0 Mar 9, 2013 @ 10:15am 
Really? Can I ask if you're basing this on your wealth of personal experience, or the masses of comments from devs wishing that their games were dealt with in the old way?
Also, I reckon you'll find it has a net zero benefit to players, who can choose not to click, and how do you argue it would benefit Steam to massively increase their workload to a point they found unsustainable?
jeslyck Mar 9, 2013 @ 11:59am 
1.quote ; Now that Greenlight has been out for months, people have stopped voting = It is an assumption based on what data?

2. quote ; and it's obviously dying or already mostly dead = It is an assumption based on what data?

3. quote;It would be benificial to those developers, to us players, and to Steam itself. = It is an assumption based on what data?


Just a lot of postulates
TOP-Proto - Dominating Studios Mar 9, 2013 @ 1:51pm 
all games should get preliminarily accepted and given a playtest by steam before release for the purpose of checking copyright and making sure the game is playable. This is as far as steam should go with this imo.

Its getting the backs up of some indie developers (including me) because greenlight is in the way. It throws up a big assumption to indie developers who want to use steams functionality and gets in the way of decision making. (what if steam don't greenlight etc)

take a look at the UDK method, that works perfectly. Sell a license for 100. explain in your terms what you want per game sold and other royalty figures, release your software for developers to use. Steams probably falling down on the fact that its secretive about who pays what in royalties. Get some tiers if you need to (again like the UDK does)

Next develop a submission of completed games system and take the role of end user.

Your too far down the chain and wasting time on looking over submissions that are all big and bold but may never be completed, and missing the smaller indie teams out (the exact guys your trying to help!) Its my opinion that all the big games with big followings would have made it anyway, therefore greenlights role was to shut the door on upcoming promising indie games, and worse still, you have people voting on the games that don't even care about them. The Yes/No system was a system introduced to answer the question "would you buy this game when its released?" and that totally failed with the people having to vote every single game submission that was submitted. Then you had those who hated anything that wasnt their genre saying no to all other genres (which is right) but it makes it look like you got an unpopular game, really the yes/no system was broken from the start. it should have been broken down into "would you buy this game" Y/N "is this the type of game you would have brought" Y/N

All in all, as an indie developer, Greenlight has been a frustrating experience, and alot of time wasted setting up our project and advertising steam, telling our fans to register for steam and our game for steam to say "hey we think Greenlight doesn't work either"

So to make it even worse! (it can get worse?) Greenlight is not really supported by the indie community, its not supported by steam, and the steam community are using it differently to how it was supposed to be used anyway.
Keavon Mar 9, 2013 @ 2:15pm 
^^ Exactly. That is the main problem with Greenlight in my opinion too. It's extremely unfriendly to most indies, unless your game is something like a Minecraft clone or something that has a cult following. Many great indie games will never get on Steam because nobody notices it. Those same indie games would be treasures once put on Steam via the old submission method. Greenlight kills most indies, and is a huge roadblock. Greenlight was meant to allow the community to filter if a game is of the quality to go on Steam, but it is letting lots of low-quality games through, and is blocking many other games that really deserve a place in Steam. I am speaking as a hobby developer who may release an indie game in the future. I had my eyes on Steam, but now I fear it impossible to get through Greenlight due to the lack of exposure. Greenlight simply lets popular games through and unheard of treasures be ignored. The old submission system was what allowed Steam to have many great indie games.

To answer the above questions to which I stated as true:
1) It is obvious that Greenlight has many less users voting than it did when it was released. I don't have to back that up, do I?
2) I can tell it's dying by letting many low-quality games through because most games aren't being voted on, so it's just letting more and more of the less voted on games through, smoothing the nearly flat low surface of submissions.
3) Getting the old submission system back would be benificial to developers for the reason stated in the paragraph above. It would be benificial to players because players get to play those indie titles that otherwise wouldn't have been Greenlit due to the fact that nobody has heard of them before they could have been on Steam. Steam is losing out because they don't get to put good games on their store because those games weren't greenlit by the community. Steam used to be a great place for indies, but now it's not, and it's causing Steam to lose out on many great indie games in their marketplace.
jeslyck Mar 9, 2013 @ 2:50pm 
1) It is obvious that Greenlight has many less users voting than it did when it was released. I don't have to back that up, do I?
It was obvious that something like this would happen, mathematically, it has no great impact.

2) I can tell it's dying by letting many low-quality games through because most games aren't being voted on, so it's just letting more and more of the less voted on games through, smoothing the nearly flat low surface of submissions.
No, they provide access to what they believe can sell the most copies.

3) Getting the old submission system back would be benificial to developers for the reason stated in the paragraph above. It would be benificial to players because players get to play those indie titles that otherwise wouldn't have been Greenlit due to the fact that nobody has heard of them before they could have been on Steam. Steam is losing out because they don't get to put good games on their store because those games weren't greenlit by the community. Steam used to be a great place for indies, but now it's not, and it's causing Steam to lose out on many great indie games in their marketplace.
Have not heard any indie developer who want the old system back. And do not get the impression that the old system, worked the same way as you describe.
Keavon Mar 9, 2013 @ 2:56pm 
Originally posted by jeslyck:
1) It is obvious that Greenlight has many less users voting than it did when it was released. I don't have to back that up, do I?
It was obvious that something like this would happen, mathematically, it has no great impact.

2) I can tell it's dying by letting many low-quality games through because most games aren't being voted on, so it's just letting more and more of the less voted on games through, smoothing the nearly flat low surface of submissions.
No, they provide access to what they believe can sell the most copies.

3) Getting the old submission system back would be benificial to developers for the reason stated in the paragraph above. It would be benificial to players because players get to play those indie titles that otherwise wouldn't have been Greenlit due to the fact that nobody has heard of them before they could have been on Steam. Steam is losing out because they don't get to put good games on their store because those games weren't greenlit by the community. Steam used to be a great place for indies, but now it's not, and it's causing Steam to lose out on many great indie games in their marketplace.
Have not heard any indie developer who want the old system back. And do not get the impression that the old system, worked the same way as you describe.
I hard heard indie developers asking for the old submission system back on these discussion threads throughout the months. Do a search and you will find them.

Also, why do you NOT want the old submission system back as an option?
Thordred Mar 9, 2013 @ 2:57pm 
Originally posted by Keavon:
Getting the old submission system back would be benificial to developers for the reason stated in the paragraph above. It would be benificial to players because players get to play those indie titles that otherwise wouldn't have been Greenlit due to the fact that nobody has heard of them before they could have been on Steam. Steam is losing out because they don't get to put good games on their store because those games weren't greenlit by the community. Steam used to be a great place for indies, but now it's not, and it's causing Steam to lose out on many great indie games in their marketplace.

Guess the devs that got rejected by Valve would beg to differ. Before Greenlight I read complaints from indie devs about Valves submission system quite frequently. Almost everyone agreed that Steam is good for indie devs whos games are sold on Steam, not so much for devs who weren't given the chance.
The number of new games getting accepted is probably about the same now as it was with the old submission system.
No matter what kind of submission system is in place, developers that get rejected will always complain, so will customers who are not offered their favourite indie titles on their beloved Steam.
The only solution would be to get rid of submission systems in any shape or form entirely and let everything into the Steam store. But of course then some users would complain about Steam turning into a junkyard for low-quality software and would want the curated store back.
It's impossible to please everyone.

Originally posted by Keavon:
Greenlight kills most indies, and is a huge roadblock. Greenlight was meant to allow the community to filter if a game is of the quality to go on Steam, but it is letting lots of low-quality games through, and is blocking many other games that really deserve a place in Steam.

How would indie game development benefit if other games would be available on Steam instead of these? I don't see it.
Keavon Mar 9, 2013 @ 3:07pm 
I am not saying that the old submission system was easy to get through. I am saying that a good game would get through. There are plenty of great games on Greenlight which are not being seen, which is why developers who don't get enough votes should be given the OPTION to try for the old submission system. I am not saying to remove Greenlight.

Games on Steam should be quality. I find that forcing everyone to use Greenlight as the only option is a bad idea because it's more often about popularity than it is about quality. This popularity either comes from being favored by the dreaded que system, by being a huge cult following, or by being liked by some well-known person. Greenlight is fine, but it shouldn't be the only option. If you have a quality game, you should be given a chance at getting on Steam even if not everyone knows about your game.

Yes, I know I've heard lots of developers complaning that they never got a responce from the old submission system, and Greenlight may be what's good for them. But like I am saying, some games may be favored by the old submission system instead of Greenlight. That's why it should be optional. If a developer who thinks they have a game that the old submission system would let through can't get enough likes from Greenlight, then the old system should be an option.
Thordred Mar 9, 2013 @ 3:22pm 
Did the submission system really change that much? Valve hand-picked the games that were allowed into the store and it still does. With Greenlight, a survey system was added that provides some additional data for Valve employees to base their decisions on.
Gorlom[Swe] Mar 9, 2013 @ 3:31pm 
Originally posted by TOP-Proto - Dominating Studios:
Then you had those who hated anything that wasnt their genre saying no to all other genres (which is right) but it makes it look like you got an unpopular game, really the yes/no system was broken from the start.
No, it doesn't make the game look unpopular. At least not to Valve. The no votes while shown does not count for anything in anyones opinion.
That is just based on misconceptions and and assumptions really.
Keavon Mar 9, 2013 @ 4:09pm 
Originally posted by Thordred:
Did the submission system really change that much? Valve hand-picked the games that were allowed into the store and it still does. With Greenlight, a survey system was added that provides some additional data for Valve employees to base their decisions on.
Valve doesn't chose anything anymore. It's 100% up to votes.
-Z- Mar 9, 2013 @ 4:11pm 
Originally posted by Keavon:
Valve doesn't chose anything anymore. It's 100% up to votes.
Why were games outside the top ten greenlit?
Skoardy Mar 9, 2013 @ 4:37pm 
Originally posted by Keavon:
2) I can tell it's dying by letting many low-quality games through because most games aren't being voted on, so it's just letting more and more of the less voted on games through, smoothing the nearly flat low surface of submissions.
Not sure I follow the logic here. Surely the so-called 'high quality' games are getting voted on by the same number of people voting for the low quality games. Why are low quality games getting through and not the high quality ones? Why do you keep saying that all these apparently great games are not being seen?

You can't claim that games you don't like getting greenlit is proof of anything (apart from differing tastes to the majority).

Of course some indie developers are screaming for Greenlight to go away - they've come to realise, left to public opinion, their child isn't as pretty as they fooled themselves into believing. No idea why they'd want to go back to basically flipping a coin and hoping they got a sympathetic Valve employee who likes their genre, though. Chances are just waiting months on end to get a vague message back along the lines of their game not being a fit for Steam, with no further explanation or route for appeal.
Keavon Mar 9, 2013 @ 5:03pm 
Originally posted by Zaxoth:
Originally posted by Keavon:
Valve doesn't chose anything anymore. It's 100% up to votes.
Why were games outside the top ten greenlit?
Can you explain what you mean by that? What are the top 10? How do you know if a game is one of the top 10 if they don't show any position except to the developers?
TonyDanza Mar 9, 2013 @ 5:04pm 
Originally posted by Zaxoth:
Originally posted by Keavon:
Valve doesn't chose anything anymore. It's 100% up to votes.
Why were games outside the top ten greenlit?
Those games were selected due to a high number of votes within a short period of time. It's still based on votes regardless of how you look at it.
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Date Posted: Mar 9, 2013 @ 9:47am
Posts: 53