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Erretter Jan 7 @ 11:48pm
It should not be allowed to post games that are still in development
Reason:

"Would you buy this game." (ONCE IT´S FINISHED)
Well F**K. How should I know?!
If an artist presents me a rough stone and a painting of a statue I can´t tell if I would buy that statue in the end. What if this guy is a jerk and not able to build a fine statue out of that rough stone?! I need to see the final statue to tell if I would buy it.
Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
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Gorlom[Swe] Jan 8 @ 12:13am 
If you don't know then just press "not interested" and move on.
Sera Jan 8 @ 1:05am 
Originally posted by GorlomSwe:
If you don't know then just press "not interested" and move on.
Quoted for truth. Also, the question was never "Would you buy this game once it's finished" but simply "Would you buy this game if it was available on Steam". If you don't know then don't click yes. You can do what Gorlom said or do like me and click "Ask me later" for games that seem interesting.
Last edited by Sera; Jan 8 @ 1:07am
C0untzer0 Jan 8 @ 1:06am 
SSDD....
Erretter Jan 8 @ 2:26am 
Originally posted by GorlomSwe:
If you don't know then just press "not interested" and move on.
WHOAAAAHH!!! I NEVER SAW THIS BUTTON BEFORE!!!!11eleven
.................
/sarcasm

If everybody would do that, there would almost not a single game get greenlight, since 95% of games presented here are unfinished.

My question is:
How come there are people voting for YES when the game is still incomplete/unfinished/in development.

Do they really have THAT much trust?!
I just can´t understand how one can trust someone just by seeing a few screenshots or videos of an unfinished game. And voting: "YES I WOULD BUY THIS GAME!"
I mean:

How do you KNOW that?!
-Z- Jan 8 @ 2:37am 
Perhaps people have figured out magical ways of using the internet to follow the development of projects that pique their interest and vote for the projects that are following a course of development that shows them as being things they might purchase.

Y'know, like people would do for making an actual purchase when only a few screenshots or videos are available on the store page.
Last edited by -Z-; Jan 8 @ 2:38am
AusSkiller Jan 8 @ 3:24am 
You do realize getting through greenlight can take over 6 months? If developers can't submit until the game is complete that means they would have to pay their employees for that period without them having any work to do, with just 2 or 3 employees that's going to add up to well over $50,000 even if you are underpaying them, and going $50,000 over budget is often enough to bankrupt indie developers which means some games that do get greenlit wont make it to Steam since they'll be owned by banks by they time they are actually greenlit. There is also a fair bit of paperwork involved in preparing a game for release that can take a while to get done so even if games were immediately greenlit when they were submitted there would still be a delay of a month or two before a game would actually get released, being able to submit during development means the paperwork can be done in parallel to the development allowing the games to be released almost as soon as they are complete.

Also most of the development of a game is spent on the last 10% of a game (there's a common saying about game development: "90% of the work is spent on 10% of the game"), so if you can't make up your mind on a game that is part way through development then it's not like it would be much easier when it's complete. Most of the time videos showing the gameplay would look much the same half way through development as it would at the end of development, the only obvious difference would be improvements to the audio and visuals.

There's also the issue of who decides if a game is complete, to be fair it would need to be up to the developers and/or publishers of each game because Valve shouldn't have control over what another developer or publisher's game should be. Making it so developers and publishers can only submit when a game is complete will just encourage them to lie about their games being complete, so it's not like you'll see the games any later in development than you do now, it just means that there will be more games being "released" on Steam before they are actually complete like Towns was, and we all know how poorly that was received (personally I liked Towns, but it really was blatantly incomplete).

And finally you are not entering a legally binding contract by clicking yes, if the game doesn't turn out as well as you expected you are under no obligation to actually buy it so there is no need for this kind of restriction any way. If you think you would like the game click "Yes", if not just click "No thanks / Not interested", and if you really are unsure and want to see it later in development before making up your mind you can just click "Ask me again later", there are no consequences for your actions as a voter other than slightly impacting upon which games get greenlit.
Last edited by AusSkiller; Jan 8 @ 3:31am
Erretter Jan 8 @ 3:54am 
^
Stopped reading after the first few phrases.
Let me tell you, why this is complete bulls**t

1. Greenlight is NOT supposed to be an indie only assist-site. There are other sites doing that job, like Kickstarter, Desura, Indiegogo, IndieDB and so on.

2. Valve is NOT a publisher (except for a few titles from there OWN developers). The devs from games shown in greenlight don´t get money from Valve, just because their game was greenlit. A greenlighting does not give the devs a higher budget.

Greenlight is only just a plattform that is supposed to help Valve decide which games should be available on Steam. Valve relies on the opinion of the people.

And my question remains unanswered.
How can people LOGICALLY and OBJECTIVE decide "YES" or "NO" for a game, that is still in development?

The question: "Would you buy this game" is addresed to the FINISHED game.
How can you answer this question, if the game is UNFINISHED at the time of questioning???

Last edited by Erretter; Jan 8 @ 3:55am
AusSkiller Jan 8 @ 5:11am 
Originally posted by Erretter:
Stopped reading after the first few phrases.
Let me tell you, why this is complete bulls**t
Calling something ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ without properly reading it, yeah that's a good thing to do. *rolls eyes*

Originally posted by Erretter:
1. Greenlight is NOT supposed to be an indie only assist-site. There are other sites doing that job, like Kickstarter, Desura, Indiegogo, IndieDB and so on.
Most non-indie developers and publishers don't need to go through Greenlight, which means that while it is not indie only, it is mostly indie games that go through the process. What Greenlight is NOT supposed to be is a way to delay many indie titles from being released costing the companies making them large chunks of money which is exactly what you are proposing be done.

Originally posted by Erretter:
2. Valve is NOT a publisher (except for a few titles from there OWN developers). The devs from games shown in greenlight don´t get money from Valve, just because their game was greenlit. A greenlighting does not give the devs a higher budget.
Of course Valve isn't a publisher and doesn't give the developers/publishers money through through Greenlight, how the hell did you get that idea from what I wrote? And because Valve aren't giving them money how could they possibly justify forcing developers to waste tens of thousands of dollars waiting to be greenlit before being able to release their game and start generating revenue from sales? You clearly weren't reading my post properly.

Originally posted by Erretter:
And my question remains unanswered.
How can people LOGICALLY and OBJECTIVE decide "YES" or "NO" for a game, that is still in development?
Had you read my post I did actually answer that. The difference between a game half way through development and a game that is complete is fairly minimal as far as how it appears to play. If you have trouble deciding if a game in development is worth buying based on a video demonstration of it then it's not going to be much easier to decide if you watch a video demonstration of the game once it is complete, the difference in the core gameplay will be largely unnoticeable.

Originally posted by Erretter:
The question: "Would you buy this game" is addresed to the FINISHED game.
How can you answer this question, if the game is UNFINISHED at the time of questioning???
Developers usually put up video demonstrating the gameplay and write a lot of detail about what features to expect to see in the final version, they also usually have at least a small cross section of play in the videos that have near complete assets to give you a good taste of the final quality, there's not too much that is left to the imagination, so that should be more than enough information for anyone to make a reasonably accurate estimation of how the game will end up. And as I said if it does not live up to expectations then you are under no obligation to buy it so it's not really that big a problem if you vote yes and then don't buy it, though I'd wager that if someone was ever interested in a game then even if it didn't turn out as well as they had hoped they would still buy if it were at a very low price point during a sale or something. Literally millions of people are able to make the decision of whether or not to buy a game without the game needing to be complete, just look at pre-sale figures for evidence of that, if you are unable to do it then that indicates the problem is with you, not Greenlight.
-Z- Jan 8 @ 5:19am 
Originally posted by Erretter:
^Stopped reading after the first few phrases.

Because I have an opinion and nothing anyone says will cause me to feel otherwise, no matter how stupidly I've presented my case and no matter how soundly the opposition has presented theirs. What is bulls**t is the notion that anyone else should take my thoughts on the matter seriously or give any more consideration to my ravings than I give to the points brought against them.
I fixed that for you.

This is, after all, the actual effect of deciding to object to what someone has said whilst admitting that you haven't actually read what they've said.
Erretter Jan 8 @ 6:38am 
All I understand is from all those arguments, is:

Greenlight voters that choose "YES" are people that never read reviews of games or at least never give a dam about them. And also those people don´t need to play a game before buying it. No reviews, no demos, just instant-buy after seening some screenshots and videos.

How can you decide to buy a game, if there are no reviews online for it? (of course there are no reviews, since the game is not finished yet)
Many ... if not 99% of ALL games that get abysmall review scores look GOOD on screenshots and video montages.

It is not possible to judge about a game without playing it!
There are a few unfinished games here that got a playable demo of the current alpha/beta-state, but those games are rare.
So.
How can you decide to buy a game that is unfinished?

Do you really NEVER rely on reviews?
Do you have too much money?
Buying games after you´ve just seen some screenshots and video? never playing it, never reading reviews... I just can´t understand how you can act so...... so!

Last edited by Erretter; Jan 8 @ 6:41am
wilco64256 Jan 8 @ 7:20am 
Originally posted by Erretter:
It is not possible to judge about a game without playing it!

That's just utterly ridiculous. There are many other factors which can play into deciding whether someone would be likely to purchase a product. If you only buy things that have a playable demo and a lot of great reviews then you're missing out on lots of great products.
AusSkiller Jan 8 @ 8:42am 
Originally posted by Erretter:
All I understand is from all those arguments, is:

Greenlight voters that choose "YES" are people that never read reviews of games or at least never give a dam about them. And also those people don´t need to play a game before buying it. No reviews, no demos, just instant-buy after seening some screenshots and videos.
Obviously screenshots and cinematic trailers aren't going to help much, but I'm fairly sure I specifically mentioned gameplay being in the videos, and that should be enough to base the decision on assuming there isn't any fraudulent content, but fraudulent content in an official video is usually good grounds for getting a refund so that's no big deal.

Originally posted by Erretter:
How can you decide to buy a game, if there are no reviews online for it? (of course there are no reviews, since the game is not finished yet)
Many ... if not 99% of ALL games that get abysmall review scores look GOOD on screenshots and video montages.
It's easy, I can form opinions of my own, I don't need someone to tell me what to think, if I see some gameplay I can tell if playing that game would be fun for me, I can decide for myself what I would and would not like about the gameplay. Reviews are someone elses opinion, that means that it will not always be the same as how I feel about a game, my favorite PS2 game was rated only 78/100 but after seeing a bit of the game play I knew I'd enjoy it more than most games rated 90/100 or higher, and I did, it was a similar case with Duke Nukem Forever, it got horrible reviews but after seeing a bit of the gameplay it was obvious I would still enjoy it, so I bought it, played it and really enjoyed it. Conversely Call of Duty got great reviews but I saw some gameplay for Call of Duty multiplayer and knew I would not like that, but the single player gameplay did look fun, so I bought it on sale and sure enough I didn't like the multiplayer but did quite enjoy the single player, I find it very easy to decide which games appeal to me without being told which do. Being reliant on other peoples opinions seems like a very silly thing to me, people have different tastes so unless you are the reviewer a review isn't really a good way to know if you'll like a game, you should learn to figure that out for yourself.

Originally posted by Erretter:
It is not possible to judge about a game without playing it!
There are a few unfinished games here that got a playable demo of the current alpha/beta-state, but those games are rare.
So.
How can you decide to buy a game that is unfinished?
It is very possible to judge a game based on a gameplay video, you don't need to play it, you just need to imagine how it plays based on what you see in a gameplay video. Even if you have never played games before and don't have the experience to know if you would enjoy that sort of game you can still break down the gameplay into the activities you will frequently perform in the game (as seen in a gameplay video) and draw from your experience of similar real life activities and how much you enjoy those. It does take a little bit of thought in some cases though, for instance most people have never shot anyone before so how could they know if they would enjoy a first person shooter? Well most kids (at least boys) have thrown rocks at some kind of target before and that's same sort of activity that is involved in a first persont shooter, the activity is trying to hit a target, if you enjoy that then chances are you can enjoy a first person shooter, well assuming you don't find the content objectionable, but that would also be obvious from a gameplay video.

Originally posted by Erretter:
Do you really NEVER rely on reviews?
Not never, but very very rarely, perhaps once every fifty to a hundred games. I only turn to them if the review scores are really out of whack with my opinion on a game that I'm still on the fence about and I want to see if I missed something, usually the reviewer just hates something that doesn't bother me, or loves something that I don't care about and I just end up ignoring the review and go with whatever I was leaning towards.

Originally posted by Erretter:
Do you have too much money?
Nope, I currently have no income at all so I have to live relatively frugally, I have a lot saved up for a deposit for a house (I still live with my parents) but I don't like using that money to buy games so nowadays I tend not to buy them unlesss I'm 100% sure I'd enjoy them (though the Steam sale did bend that policy a bit by baiting me with very cheap prices ;) ). Also I live in Australia where games are notoriously expensive, so I have to be extra cautious about what games I buy.

Originally posted by Erretter:
Buying games after you´ve just seen some screenshots and video? never playing it, never reading reviews... I just can´t understand how you can act so...... so!
It's just a matter of understanding what you like and what you don't like, once you know that it's usually rather simple to see in a gameplay video what would and wouldn't appeal to you in that game and weigh that up for yourself to determine if it is worth the price of buying it.
Graeme- Coarse Gentleman Jan 8 @ 2:45pm 
Gah, how did I miss this?

There is a concept section for unfinished/in super alpha projects.
It's infuriating seeing people upload games that are essentially barebone skeletons of games.
-Z- Jan 8 @ 3:57pm 
Originally posted by Erretter:
All I understand is from all those arguments, is:

Greenlight voters that choose "YES" are people that never read reviews of games or at least never give a dam about them. And also those people don´t need to play a game before buying it. No reviews, no demos, just instant-buy after seening some screenshots and videos.
If that's all you understood from what has been said, you need to work on your reading comprehension.


How can you decide to buy a game, if there are no reviews online for it? (of course there are no reviews, since the game is not finished yet)
Many ... if not 99% of ALL games that get abysmall review scores look GOOD on screenshots and video montages.
Easily. It's this thing called "I was gaming before there were internet reviewers, and thus I do not need someone else to tell me what to think."


It is not possible to judge about a game without playing it!
That doesn't stop people from judging games they haven't played. Countless have judged games as not being worth their time without ever playing them.


There are a few unfinished games here that got a playable demo of the current alpha/beta-state, but those games are rare.
So.
How can you decide to buy a game that is unfinished?
Again, easily.


Do you really NEVER rely on reviews?
Yes, because I know that reviews are little more than a single person's opinion. Also, said single person has a different gaming history and set of preferences than mine, and it would be just plain silly to let someone else's preferencess dictate my own.


Do you have too much money?
Nope. I can simply identify a game I would enjoy playing by seeing it in action due to having played a large number of games in the past and knowing how they function.


Buying games after you´ve just seen some screenshots and video? never playing it, never reading reviews... I just can´t understand how you can act so...... so!
So...like I grew up before the internet was a thing? Because that's reality.
Atticus Finch Jan 9 @ 3:38pm 
thats why i like it when games have the one trailer with the graphix and jim jazz and then after they have gameplay and 3rd they have some guy explaining it.
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Date Posted: Jan 7 @ 11:48pm
Posts: 16