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Speech Redesigned
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Jan 9, 2013 @ 12:15pm
May 10, 2013 @ 1:00pm
9 change notes ( view )
Description
The latest version of this mod is now here[www.nexusmods.com] on Nexus. This remains as a completely functional legacy version.

=Short Description=
This mod aims to stay true to the vanilla perks but eliminate its design flaws. The tree has been completely restructured to offer choice, balance and a steady progression.
Haggling was removed because it didn't add anything to the game to compensate Allure is now at 15%, Master Trader additionaly gives 10% on prices and a new perk "Courtesy" was added which improves prices with Nords by 20%. Trading should now be a more interactive and interesting experience. For all the other changes check out the image or read on (!wall of text incoming!).


=In-depth Explanation=
Perks should be about getting a cool gameplay enhancing advantage and not about generic percentage increases. Allure is a good perk because it affects how the player interacts with the systems. My new perk Courtesy follows that same design philosophy it has the nice side effect that Investor and Merchant become more desireable as they make it easier for you to leave more gold at your favored trader.
Persuasion checks are very easy in Skyrim I never got this perk and won 90% of them. Persuasion is based on your Speech skill so it is only useful while the skill is low so it makes no sense to have a high requirement.
Intimidation is based on Speech Skill and Player Level, from what I understand this means it is best when your Speech skill is low and your Player Level high, in the vanilla game you are only able to get Intimidation when your skill is so high that you can already win EVERY persuasion check in the game. In my opinion it should be a roleplaying choice.
You now have the choice to pick either of the three perks to advance, the tree has no more perk requirements which might be useless to your class.
Investor now comes before Merchant because Merchant is the far better perk and to a degree lessens the usefulness of Investor.
Fence was lowered, it is a very powerful perk but 90 seemed too high I never reached 90 in my playthrough.
Finally Master Trader was a pretty useless skill because it is redundant with Merchant and Investor. Imo the final perk should make you feel like a badass for having it so i added 10% better prices but also reduced the requirement because Speech just levels so slowly I just can't imagine anyone reaching 100 without abusing trainers and I don't want to design around trainers they should be a wildcard for the player not a necessity.

=Compatibility=
This mod only changes the Speech tree, fbarter values remain unchanged. All spent perks will transfer over except for Haggling Rank 2-5, you could in that case use console commands to get new perks, PerkIDs are unchanged.

=Complementary Mods=
Alchemy Redesigned: I did the same thing for the alchemy tree.

=Changelog=
1.2.2 -Bugfix for Perk requirements for Investor
-Bribe prices increased to incentivize Persuasion/Intimidation
1.2.1 -Added 5% to Allure and Courtesy
1.2: -new Perk "Courtesy" which improves prices with Nords by 15%
-Master Trader now also gives 10% better prices
1.1: -added missing "Fence" to constellation and beautified them
-cleaned of useless CK edits
6 Comments
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richard.l.homan Mar 16, 2013 @ 2:13pm 
(Other one first.)

What if Courtesy were a 2-rank perk with the first being 10% with Nords, and the second being an additional 5% with Nords plus 10% with everyone (totaling 25% total for Nords and 10% with non-Nords)? It would still be required to think about who you're trading with while also being useful with everyone. Also, it get's close to the original possible 30% boost, but since it's only 2 perks instead of 5, that 25% is only applicable if you're trading correctly; otherwise, it's only a 10% boost. Just an idea.
richard.l.homan Mar 16, 2013 @ 2:13pm 
Alright, I can see what you mean regarding Master Trader. It does get a bit redundant. I'd say the only thing in favor of Master Trader, with that in mind, is that you don't have to invest. But at the same time, by the time you get to use any of those three, investing isn't that difficult. So, yeah, Investor and Merchant really do make Master Trader less than effective.

As far as Haggling vs Courtesy, I very much like the idea that Courtesy and Allure help to make it important to think about whom you're selling to. What I dislike about having Courtesy is just that it replaces Haggling, and Haggling allowed for a larger benefit. I don't like, however, that Haggling takes 5 perks to get 30%. Multiple ranks seems fine for it, to me. But 5 seems a bit over the top.

(Follow-up next. Ran out of room.)
Gord0n  [author] Mar 16, 2013 @ 1:34pm 
Thanks, always interested in what people think and why!

I think Master Trader isn't that great because it requires Investor and Merchant which all do similar things, I just can't see myself having trouble selling things with those perks.

Do you prefer Haggling because it allows you to spend more perks into getting more money or because you do not have to pay attention to who you sell to or because it is simply the better perk in your opinion?

Because if it isn't the first reason it was intentional, I do think Allure and Courtesy are in line with the vanilla balance but avoiding baseline increases in prices was intentional to make perks that affect gameplay in more direct and meaningful ways.
richard.l.homan Mar 16, 2013 @ 11:37am 
Just trying to give some constructive feedback.

To start, I like that fact that you lowered the requirements for the convincing type perks. You're absolutely right that they are completely useless at their vanilla settings.

I don't like, however, that you removed Haggling. I also don't really understand the opinion that Master Trader is a useless perk. At all. If I could every manage to get to it, it would be among the most useful perks. However, you didn't remove its initial effect, only added to it. So, that's not actually a complaint, just an opinion of mine.

Overall, seems like a great mod and I'll definitely use it. To be honest, though, I'll probably replace Courtesy with Haggling. It trades a 10% boost (with potential for increase) with everyone for 15% boost with specific people (and no potential for increase).
cumonstepitup Jan 11, 2013 @ 10:11am 
the fact that I don't need 70 speech for intimidate is a good chance I'll install this
WeedScope Jan 10, 2013 @ 4:40pm 
Thank you,just what i was looking for.